Greater Anglia Single Justice Procedure Notice

[RichT]

Hi Guys

I'm new to this forum and was hoping to get some advice about a situation I am in.

I received a charge sheet today about an offence committed 4 - 5 months ago, stating that i contravened Byelaw no 18 (1) of the Railway Byelaws made under Section 219 and Schedule 20 of the Transport Act 2000, in accordance with the Railways ACT 2005, in that I entered a train in a non-compulsory ticket area for the purpose of travelling on the Railway without having with me a valid ticket entitling me to travel.

They have also attached to the charge sheet a settlement offer to the value of £150 to settle outside of court if I choose to pay via calling a premium number.

I understand I am being accused of contravening Railway Byelaw 18 (1). This offence is committed by a passenger if they board a train without a valid ticket at a station with ticket selling facilities. I understand from the byelaws this is a strict liability offence. It's either fact or not.

However, I believe there are mitigating circumstances in my scenario.

I have been buying monthly tickets for years, I travel from Chelmsford into Liverpool Street as part of my work commute and also when going out in London.

On this particular day when I travelled into London, when I tapped my smartcard at Chelmsford the gate did not open, I tried multiple times and the gate didn't open. I went to the main gate and tapped my smartcard, and the ticket attendant, opened the gate and asked to inspect my smartcard, they held it to their device and it produced an error. As my ticket was not due to expire for another month in advance (they could see my ticket expiry date) they could not understand why an error was arising. At this point they must have thought it might have been a machine error, so they let me through and I began my journey.

The attendant allowing me through at this point, can this be taken as them given me authorisation to travel?

When I arrived at Liverpool Street, I had the same issue with my ticket not allowing me to go through the gate, the attendant at this end had the same issue, she tried for 2 - 3 minutes and could see my ticket was not due to expire for another month. She was confused and escalated to her supervisor.

The supervisor had the same issue with my smartcard, when holding it to his device, after deliberating for 2 to 3 minutes, now 3 to 4 ticket attendants were around me, the supervisor attendant realised the error was arisen as my ticket was out of date, as it was not due to start until the next day.

I buy my tickets in advance, the day I was travelling into Liverpool Street, was a Bank Holiday Monday, I had bought my ticket on the preceding Friday, when I asked for the ticket to start next week, the attendant I am assuming must has used his initiative and started my monthly ticket from the Tuesday, instead of the Monday.

When everyone realised what had happened, I immediately offered to pay for my journey, however the Supervisor Attendant wanted to issue a substantial penalty fare.

As I had shown my ticket at Chelmsford station and been allowed through only for an employee to penalise me from the same company after viewing the same smartcard, is this not a form of entrapment?

When the Supervisor inspected my smartcard, he could see all my previous purchases of monthly tickets, since the start of the year when the smartcard was launched on my route. I also stand to gain nothing from starting my monthly smartcard a day later, as I was on my summer holiday for a week, on the week the ticket was expiring.

I am an honest customer, I have proof of purchasing tickets continuously for over 2 years on this line, the only reason I was on the train was because at the chelmsford entrance they let me through after when i tapped the gate did not open.

I would like to see what peoples views are of this situation. I offered to pay immediately, I pay circa £400 a month for a monthly ticket.

I would like to plead "Not Guilty".

I have no other convictions. I have a history of buying tickets, which the ticket attendant, himself acknowledged and due to a mistake by 2 Greater Anglia employees, the one who sold my ticket on the Friday as well as the one that allowed me through after seeing the error on their device on the Monday, they have attempted to issue a penalty fare.

Thoughts?

 

[Clip]

As I had shown my ticket at Chelmsford station and been allowed through only for an employee to penalise me from the same company after viewing the same smartcard, is this not a form of entrapment?

Quite simply no.

However, this action of being let through the gates *could* be seen as giving authority to travel however this comes with many caveats including whether the gateline attendant was in a position of authority to give such permission - and most are not.

You are being offered an out of court settlement which could just make it all go away and for the time and stress about going through things as other posters will now post after me you have to weigh up whether it is worth all the stress of doing so - I, personally, would chalk this one down to experience and pay and move on. Others, including yourself, may not see it that way but thats how i see the situation.

 

[RichT]

Quite simply no.

However, this action of being let through the gates *could* be seen as giving authority to travel however this comes with many caveats including whether the gateline attendant was in a position of authority to give such permission - and most are not.

You are being offered an out of court settlement which could just make it all go away and for the time and stress about going through things as other posters will now post after me you have to weigh up whether it is worth all the stress of doing so - I, personally, would chalk this one down to experience and pay and move on. Others, including yourself, may not see it that way but thats how i see the situation.

Understood, however the stress is a non-factor for me, its the principal that offends me most.

I've a genuine customer and have bought tickets for years on end, I have receipts proving so and the attendant issuing the penalty fare even acknowledged so.

A mistake on their side at one end, will potentially cost me £150 and the fact they have moved commuters from papercards, where you can clearly see your ticket start date and end date on the ticket, on a smartcard where this is not visible makes this issue hard to avoid going forwards.

Thanks for the response.

 

[Clip]

Understood, however the stress is a non-factor for me, its the principal that offends me most.

I've a genuine customer and have bought tickets for years on end, I have receipts proving so and the attendant issuing the penalty fare even acknowledged so.

A mistake on their side at one end, will potentially cost me £150 and the fact they have moved commuters from papercards, where you can clearly see your ticket start date and end date on the ticket, on a smartcard where this is not visible makes this issue hard to avoid going forwards.

Thanks for the response.

Oh i fully agree with you that its the principal of it all and it does sound a bit **** really but there are the factors involved that i outlined about permissions - Its up to you about where you go from here to fight it - though theres a thread on here about the anglia smartcards and you could still have them on paper( i cant find it right now)

There will be people on later who will give you their advice too and its up to you how you proceed but just giving my thoughts on it due to the gateline issue which im not sure would work but could be a defence

 

[Hadders]

The offence you’re Being charged with is a ‘strict liability’. You didn’t have a ticket and therefore you are guilty as charged. Unfortunately mitigation doesn’t come into it. If you go to court you will be found guilty.

A Penalty Fare is the correct course of action for someone who has made an honest mistake, sadly because you didn’t pay it the train company have now initiated court action. I’d have paid the Penalty Fare to make the matter go away and then raised all the points you made here with customer relations.

I would pay the £150 to make the matter go away from a legal point of view, however unfair it seems. Once this is concluded the. You could consider a separate complaint to Greater Anglia. Perhaps you could also involve tour local newspaper or your MP.

 

[cuccir]

The attendant allowing me through at this point, can this be taken as them given me authorisation to travel?

Possibly. My hesitation would be that the member of staff at Chelmsford never said "Your ticket is not valid, but you can travel anyway". Rather, they didn't spot the absence of the validity that you claimed. Indeed it could be argued that you duped that member of staff. I'm not saying you did; I'm just pointing out the argument that a lawyer might make.

This offence is committed by a passenger if they board a train without a valid ticket at a station with ticket selling facilities. I understand from the byelaws this is a strict liability offence. It's either fact or not.

You've identified the issue at hand: the law is stacked against the individual here. The fact of previous good character or lack of intent has no impact on potenttial guilt. FWIW I think this element of railway legislation stinks.

The only potential defence I can see in court is the idea that you were given authorisation to travel at Chelmsford. I would not personally have sufficient confidence in it as a defence to advise throwing away the opportunity to end this at a cost of £150 now, when you're risking a higher fine and criminal convcition in court.

 

[furlong]

Is the crux of this that you were not sold the ticket you thought you had asked for, and because of the smartcard situation there was no way you could have easily spotted the misunderstanding? Were you given a printed receipt bearing details of the ticket purchased? Further, several staff with equipment able to read the smartcard were similarly unable to see the problem and you were allowed to travel. In the circumstances, I'd have thought you should have just been asked to pay the normal fare - and the company should improve its equipment so all staff can see immediately that the smartcard presented was not valid until the following day.

Maybe write a letter - try to keep it succinct - setting out the extent to which you think the company bears culpability for the situation it has put you in (including some of the other points already mentioned) - and enclosing a cheque for the unpaid fare?

 

[WesternLancer]

Some good advice above. Forget about 'entrapment' (unless, I suppose, you are prepared to enter into some counter legal action against them accusing GA of that), even though I can see your line of thinking.

I'd be tempted to pay this sum to settle the 'action' being taken against you and stop the court stuff - but then pursue the matter rigorously to their customer services as an inappropriate course of action on GA's part (given the mitigating circumstances that you set out) - with a request that they refund the penalty of £150 minus the cost of a ticket that you unknowingly owed that day, when you boarded, if they wish.

Be prepared to go to customer services at least twice to press for this, in the light of the context you set out. Then probably go to the Rail Ombudsman if they do not resolve it. Do it all in writing (e-mail or formal letter), perhaps copy your MP in, asking them to intervene on your behalf if they are prepared to do so.

You essentially need to argue that in the light of what happened you believed you had a valid ticket, staff at the barrier seemed to believe this and let you through, you made no intention to evade the fare.

Basically you need to get them to think that in terms of goodwill and the staff time taken with dealing with Ombudsman / MP etc refunding you c£150 as a 'goodwill gesture' or whatever they will call it, is the simplest option for them.

Incidentally - was the penalty fare option you mentioned more than the £150 and / or did you refuse that option at the time on the grounds it was unreasonable given the circumstances you felt had happened?

 

[some bloke]

To reduce any risk of them withdrawing the offer, you might write politely asking them to clarify whether x and y have been taken into account.

Perhaps phrase the transaction as a misunderstanding, since they might think it was reasonable for you to specify a day and the clerk may have been trying to be helpful (even if they were presuming too much).

they could see my ticket expiry date

If you could see the date, they might argue that you as well as the staff member should have realised the ticket couldn't cover, for example, the 8th of both months. But since they didn't notice, arguably you shouldn't now be paying anything and shouldn't have needed to pay in either direction that day, because the staff member should have directed you to get a replacement for the correct dates.

You essentially need to argue that in the light of what happened you believed you had a valid ticket, staff at the barrier seemed to believe this and let you through, you made no intention to evade the fare.

Perhaps that implies this, but in case it isn't clear: The argument has to relate to the byelaw; points about lack of intent aren't enough.

In the byelaw, "permission to travel without a valid ticket" might be intended to mean "waiving the requirement to have a valid ticket". Is it reasonable to think it includes "permission in the mistaken belief that the passenger has a valid ticket"?

It looks like a silly demand which management shouldn't put up with. Could it be that the supervisor didn't believe you?

I might be tempted to mention the situation politely to the original ticket clerk and staff member who let me through if I recognised them.

 

[RichT]

Oh i fully agree with you that its the principal of it all and it does sound a bit **** really but there are the factors involved that i outlined about permissions - Its up to you about where you go from here to fight it - though theres a thread on here about the anglia smartcards and you could still have them on paper( i cant find it right now)

There will be people on later who will give you their advice too and its up to you how you proceed but just giving my thoughts on it due to the gateline issue which im not sure would work but could be a defence

Since the incident I moved back to paper tickets and have refused to move to smartcards to avoid this issue above. But I feel it's grossly unfair.

The offence you’re Being charged with is a ‘strict liability’. You didn’t have a ticket and therefore you are guilty as charged. Unfortunately mitigation doesn’t come into it. If you go to court you will be found guilty.

A Penalty Fare is the correct course of action for someone who has made an honest mistake, sadly because you didn’t pay it the train company have now initiated court action. I’d have paid the Penalty Fare to make the matter go away and then raised all the points you made here with customer relations.

I would pay the £150 to make the matter go away from a legal point of view, however unfair it seems. Once this is concluded the. You could consider a separate complaint to Greater Anglia. Perhaps you could also involve tour local newspaper or your MP.

This seems to be the general consensus of the feedback I am getting here, a bit disappointing, but if there is no way to fight against a 'strict liability' offence, then I may have to do as you mention.

I guess my choices are either, take the £150 and then seek Greater Anglias customer services to get compensation, cc'ing my local MP for impact, or

Try to fight the charge which is 'strict liability' which despite me having a point, I would stand a strong chance of losing, and face up to £1000 liability, this doesn't deter me, but the chance of a criminal conviction does.

Both options I'm not particularly happy with.

What are the chances of me receiving compensation from Greater Anglia, do they respond, or do they know they have their customers over a barrel, so just ignore these requests?

Possibly. My hesitation would be that the member of staff at Chelmsford never said "Your ticket is not valid, but you can travel anyway". Rather, they didn't spot the absence of the validity that you claimed. Indeed it could be argued that you duped that member of staff. I'm not saying you did; I'm just pointing out the argument that a lawyer might make.



You've identified the issue at hand: the law is stacked against the individual here. The fact of previous good character or lack of intent has no impact on potenttial guilt. FWIW I think this element of railway legislation stinks.

The only potential defence I can see in court is the idea that you were given authorisation to travel at Chelmsford. I would not personally have sufficient confidence in it as a defence to advise throwing away the opportunity to end this at a cost of £150 now, when you're risking a higher fine and criminal convcition in court.

You seem to be quiet knowledgable, are there any instances where you, or anyone on this forum has seen someone overturn a 'strict liability' offence?

I can not remember exactly but I think the fine (penalty fare) they gave to me on the spot was for £80. So it is less then the £150 I am being offered now.

The criminal conviction is my main issue with pleading "Not Guilty", I have a clean record and I understand it is not the same as a Criminal Record, but I can bet my life, they'll be a check I do in the future and it will flag up in some way, and could be embarassing.

Is the crux of this that you were not sold the ticket you thought you had asked for, and because of the smartcard situation there was no way you could have easily spotted the misunderstanding? Were you given a printed receipt bearing details of the ticket purchased? Further, several staff with equipment able to read the smartcard were similarly unable to see the problem and you were allowed to travel. In the circumstances, I'd have thought you should have just been asked to pay the normal fare - and the company should improve its equipment so all staff can see immediately that the smartcard presented was not valid until the following day.

Maybe write a letter - try to keep it succinct - setting out the extent to which you think the company bears culpability for the situation it has put you in (including some of the other points already mentioned) - and enclosing a cheque for the unpaid fare?

Theres a few cruxs when it comes to this

1) I wanted a ticket that started at the start of the following week (Monday), I got one that started on Tuesday.
2) I would never have travelled if the ticket was correctly identified as being out of date
3) A mistake that 2 staff members missed easily, when identified by the 3rd member, they should have given me the opportunity to pay the normal fare!

When you say write a letter, write one to who? Greater Anglia customer services or to the Magistrates?

Some good advice above. Forget about 'entrapment' (unless, I suppose, you are prepared to enter into some counter legal action against them accusing GA of that), even though I can see your line of thinking.

I'd be tempted to pay this sum to settle the 'action' being taken against you and stop the court stuff - but then pursue the matter rigorously to their customer services as an inappropriate course of action on GA's part (given the mitigating circumstances that you set out) - with a request that they refund the penalty of £150 minus the cost of a ticket that you unknowingly owed that day, when you boarded, if they wish.

Be prepared to go to customer services at least twice to press for this, in the light of the context you set out. Then probably go to the Rail Ombudsman if they do not resolve it. Do it all in writing (e-mail or formal letter), perhaps copy your MP in, asking them to intervene on your behalf if they are prepared to do so.

You essentially need to argue that in the light of what happened you believed you had a valid ticket, staff at the barrier seemed to believe this and let you through, you made no intention to evade the fare.

Basically you need to get them to think that in terms of goodwill and the staff time taken with dealing with Ombudsman / MP etc refunding you c£150 as a 'goodwill gesture' or whatever they will call it, is the simplest option for them.

Incidentally - was the penalty fare option you mentioned more than the £150 and / or did you refuse that option at the time on the grounds it was unreasonable given the circumstances you felt had happened?

The initial penalty fare was for £80 if I remember correctly. I refused on the grounds that it was unreasonable. There was no argument, there was a stand off.

Your advice seems to be similar if not identical to Cecirs advice, so I will definitely take this on board.

Maybe settle, then go to customer services and seek compensation. I just feel very unhappy about how I was treated, and settling feels like I'm vindicating that ticket attendant.

If you could see the date, they might argue that you as well as the staff member should have realised the ticket couldn't cover, for example, the 8th of both months. But since they didn't notice, arguably you shouldn't now be paying anything and shouldn't have needed to pay in either direction that day, because the staff member should have directed you to get a replacement for the correct dates.

This is my point exactly, but if I go to court, is this argument strong enough to win, how are things interpreted, or is it a case of tough luck, pay up! The date is not clearly visible even on the device they use. Very easy to miss, which is why it was missed on multiple occasions. I understand intent does not come into this, but this all stems from "fare evasion" and its clear I have made no attempt to evade fare.

Perhaps that implies this, but in case it isn't clear: The argument has to relate to the byelaw; points about lack of intent aren't enough.

In the byelaw, "permission to travel without a valid ticket" might be intended to mean "waiving the requirement to have a valid ticket". Is it reasonable to think it includes "permission in the mistaken belief that the passenger has a valid ticket"?

It looks like a silly demand which management shouldn't put up with. Could it be that the supervisor didn't believe you?

I might be tempted to mention the situation politely to the original ticket clerk and staff member who let me through if I recognised them.

"The authorisation to travel" part of the the byelaws, what constitutes authorisation to travel, if a ticket attendant allows you through the gate, why is that not authorisation?

In regards to the supervisor, I'm unsure why he took such a stance, I was not rude at any point, I explained the situation, he saw my history on his device of me purchasing tickets, he acknowledged everything I said, but he seemed hell bent on giving me a penalty fare. I just dont think he cared about the situation. Not much you can do, I did not argue with him at all, raise my voice or insult him at all, I did not want to be confrontational, but here I am either way. Such a poor service overall.

To be honest, it was 4 or 5 months ago, I know a lot of the ticket attendants at Chelmsford station, but I can't remember who it was, I had completely forgot about this incident until I got the letter last week.

 

[Clip]

Since the incident I moved back to paper tickets and have refused to move to smartcards to avoid this issue above. But I feel it's grossly unfair.

It does seem to be but its within the letter of the law

1) I wanted a ticket that started at the start of the following week (Monday), I got one that started on Tuesday.
2) I would never have travelled if the ticket was correctly identified as being out of date

The National Conditions of Carriage clearly state that you also have the responsibility to check that you have purchased the correct ticket for travel - you didn't and if you had done then you would've been able to rectify this whilst at the counter.

"The authorisation to travel" part of the the byelaws, what constitutes authorisation to travel, if a ticket attendant allows you through the gate, why is that not authorisation?

There are people who are specified as 'Authorised' and as i mentioned before not all,if any, gateline assistants have that authorisation - they are there to make sure the gates function properly.

Im not trying to side with the TOC here but fill you in on more information which is going to be helpful for you to decide whether to keep on with this or just pay the money and be done with it and get on with your life.

The out of court offering will not show anywhere but on GA's database, however if you have your day in court and get found guilty then, well, you know the rest.

 

[rs101]

Seems like a bit of a major flaw on their device readers if they only show the expiry date and not the start date of any season ticket. If the staff can't see it, how is the customer expected to check it?

 

[rs101]

It does seem to be but its within the letter of the law
There are people who are specified as 'Authorised' and as i mentioned before not all,if any, gateline assistants have that authorisation - they are there to make sure the gates function properly.

How can the average traveller check if someone is 'Authorised' or not

 

[bb21]

I don't have too much to add apart from what people have already covered however I do believe on account of what you mentioned above, it does indeed constitute sufficient mitigation. I'd drop the chitchat about entrapment as that isn't really relevant.

There is no guarantee that the "strict liability" nature of the offence alleged would result in a conviction should it go to the magistrates, but the real question is whether you are willing to risk it.

If you can afford the £150, I would echo the advice to pay it before the deadline should you get nowhere by then, but make it clear that you are paying under protest. There are several avenues you could explore after that, escalating the matter within the company, then if not escalate to London Travelwatch and/or the Ombudsman, and eventually your MP should you wish to. None of this will guarantee you get your money back, but in my opinion you should stand a very good chance of it.

I've merged some consecutive posts to make the thread length more manageable.

 

[Clip]

How can the average traveller check if someone is 'Authorised' or not

They generally cant and thats the problem - any authority to travel should always be given in writing but in practice it rarely happens which is why you end up with situations like this

I've merged some consecutive posts to make the thread length more manageable.

Cheers for my merge i was a bit hasty hitting the reply button

 

[Geswedey]

Are you sure about the amount of the £80.00 PF would not be applicable on GA surely, TFL Rail, LUL and London Overground have £80 PF

GA would have been £33.00 based on current prices, did you have to travel on the Central Line or TFL Rail due to engineering work by any chance.

Were you issued with a nil paid PF that you haven't paid, or were you cautioned and questioned. with the inspector reading back the contemporaneous notes which you would then have been asked to sign

 

[WesternLancer]

Since the incident I moved back to paper tickets and have refused to move to smartcards to avoid this issue above. But I feel it's grossly unfair.



This seems to be the general consensus of the feedback I am getting here, a bit disappointing, but if there is no way to fight against a 'strict liability' offence, then I may have to do as you mention.

I guess my choices are either, take the £150 and then seek Greater Anglias customer services to get compensation, cc'ing my local MP for impact, or

Try to fight the charge which is 'strict liability' which despite me having a point, I would stand a strong chance of losing, and face up to £1000 liability, this doesn't deter me, but the chance of a criminal conviction does.

Both options I'm not particularly happy with.

What are the chances of me receiving compensation from Greater Anglia, do they respond, or do they know they have their customers over a barrel, so just ignore these requests?



You seem to be quiet knowledgable, are there any instances where you, or anyone on this forum has seen someone overturn a 'strict liability' offence?

I can not remember exactly but I think the fine (penalty fare) they gave to me on the spot was for £80. So it is less then the £150 I am being offered now.

The criminal conviction is my main issue with pleading "Not Guilty", I have a clean record and I understand it is not the same as a Criminal Record, but I can bet my life, they'll be a check I do in the future and it will flag up in some way, and could be embarassing.



Theres a few cruxs when it comes to this

1) I wanted a ticket that started at the start of the following week (Monday), I got one that started on Tuesday.
2) I would never have travelled if the ticket was correctly identified as being out of date
3) A mistake that 2 staff members missed easily, when identified by the 3rd member, they should have given me the opportunity to pay the normal fare!

When you say write a letter, write one to who? Greater Anglia customer services or to the Magistrates?



The initial penalty fare was for £80 if I remember correctly. I refused on the grounds that it was unreasonable. There was no argument, there was a stand off.

Your advice seems to be similar if not identical to Cecirs advice, so I will definitely take this on board.

Maybe settle, then go to customer services and seek compensation. I just feel very unhappy about how I was treated, and settling feels like I'm vindicating that ticket attendant.



This is my point exactly, but if I go to court, is this argument strong enough to win, how are things interpreted, or is it a case of tough luck, pay up! The date is not clearly visible even on the device they use. Very easy to miss, which is why it was missed on multiple occasions. I understand intent does not come into this, but this all stems from "fare evasion" and its clear I have made no attempt to evade fare.



"The authorisation to travel" part of the the byelaws, what constitutes authorisation to travel, if a ticket attendant allows you through the gate, why is that not authorisation?

In regards to the supervisor, I'm unsure why he took such a stance, I was not rude at any point, I explained the situation, he saw my history on his device of me purchasing tickets, he acknowledged everything I said, but he seemed hell bent on giving me a penalty fare. I just dont think he cared about the situation. Not much you can do, I did not argue with him at all, raise my voice or insult him at all, I did not want to be confrontational, but here I am either way. Such a poor service overall.

To be honest, it was 4 or 5 months ago, I know a lot of the ticket attendants at Chelmsford station, but I can't remember who it was, I had completely forgot about this incident until I got the letter last week.

Thanks RichT for all those answers etc - just on this specific Q

"What are the chances of me receiving compensation from Greater Anglia, do they respond, or do they know they have their customers over a barrel, so just ignore these requests?"

I would tend to think reasonable, but you may have to go back to them 2 or 3 times in my experience of complaining to other Train Companies (TOCs) - 1st time always seems to be that they have not read your letter properly, just check and respond 'well this went to penalty / court etc' no need to address it, only on 2nd time do I tend to get proper attention - and this can be with basic if not always simple train delay claims - so you will need to be persistent. But after 2 attempts if they are not addressed properly (by which I mean a proper answer as to why they would NOT refund the penalty in the light of the mitigating circumstances) - I'd be going to the Ombudsman.

I've not actually dealt with Anglia Customer Services in recent past, but base my views on Scotrail, LNER, Cross Country, Southern dealings over last 6 months. 3 out of 4 of them seemed unable to engage properly until 2nd letter! (By which I mean cut and paste 'excuse' replies not pertinent to issue I was seeking redress over).