Groupsave refused at St Pancras

[kilo42]

Just looking for a bit of advice 're validity of groupsave tickets at St. Pancras.

My kids purchased groupsave 3 super off peak returns East Croydon - Market Harborough (via City Thameslink) today from the counter at ECR. At STP they were told by gateline staff that Groupsave wasn't valid and they had to go to the booking office and buy another ticket.

I've just had a look on the EMT site and I see groupsave isn't valid for journeys starting/finishing at STP. As their journey started at ECR were their tickets valid or am I missing something?

TIA Kev

 

[Haywain]

East Midlands Trains are not part of the main Group Save scheme, but do have their own specific groupsave tickets. Therefore the advice is correct and East Croydon were wrong to sell the tickets.

 

[Muzer]

East Midlands Trains are not part of the main Group Save scheme, but do have their own specific groupsave tickets. Therefore the advice is correct and East Croydon were wrong to sell the tickets.

If that's true why on earth are GS tickets available to Market Harborough? What route could they be valid on?

 

[deltic]

East Midlands Trains are not part of the main Group Save scheme, but do have their own specific groupsave tickets. Therefore the advice is correct and East Croydon were wrong to sell the tickets.

This is a classic example where the railway gets it completely wrong. A mistake is made by a TOC - it is correctly picked up by another TOC. Instead of penalising the passengers who did nothing wrong the second TOC should replace the tickets at no charge and bill the first TOC for getting it wrong. Now we have a case of disgrunteld passengers who are less likely to use the train in future and a ticket office that doesnt know it has mis-sold a ticket. And we wonder why no-one trusts the railways.

 

[Hadders]

I' be expecting a full refund from GTR for the cost of the additional tickets that were purchased.

If a delay occurred because of having to sort out new tickets I'd expect GTR to pay delay repay compensation as well.

 

[Be3G]

Both the EMT and National Rail websites confirm that EMT are part of the main Groupsave scheme, but the difference with EMT is that there're more restrictions on Groupsave's use than the fully participating TOCs. Namely, there's the restriction the OP found which states that the journey mustn't start from St. Pancras. Of course, the journey actually began at East Croydon so it would seem that the ECR ticket office did nothing wrong.

 

[kilo42]

Thanks for the replies.

They did miss their original train at STP sorting out new tickets, and then their journey was further delayed by 90 mins because of the disruption on the MML!

This is going to be a complicated delay repay claim!

 

[100andthirty]

kilo42.........and a strongly, but politely worded complaint to both GTR and EMT along the lines that deltic wrote

 

[kilo42]

Don't worry 100andthirty that will be dealt with when I've spoken to my kids and have found out exactly what happened at STP.

Would be good to know if Be3G's interpretation of the GS conditions is correct and the tickets were indeed valid

 

[Haywain]

Both the EMT and National Rail websites confirm that EMT are part of the main Groupsave scheme,

I'm not sure where you're getting that from - for me the National Rail website says this:

Participating train companies
c2c; Chiltern Railways; Gatwick Express; Great Northern; Great Western Railway; Greater Anglia; London Overground; South Western Railway; Southeastern; Southern; Stansted Express; Thameslink; West Midlands Trains;

EMT refer to Groupsave on their website and I agree that this is a bit misleading but the key term used there is "GroupSave tickets" as they use specific ticket types, rather than a general discount.

 

[Starmill]

The railway doing what the railway does best: ah yes, we do accept GroupSave Tickets, but not tickets with Groupsave.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does strike me that this is very badly worded. What is the meaning of a "journey starting at London St Pancras"? They need to clarify that and fix their website.

Does it mean:-
1. You can't board a train at St Pancras? (This is how most ticket restrictions work) - in which case the OP could presumably have travelled from East Croydon to Luton/Airport Parkway/Bedford on Thameslink (whichever has a service to Market Ketteringborough these days) and connected.
2. You can't issue a ticket originating at St Pancras? Then it was valid, as they didn't.
3. You can't board a train that originated at St Pancras? Then not valid, but that isn't what it says.
4. You can't start beyond St Pancras? That isn't what it says.

 

[eastdyke]

The EMT website conveniently has a map to show 'our group travel discount routes'.
The route to/from St. Pancras is shown as such a route
https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/Global/Documents/Group Travel Discount Route Map.pdf
Wouldn't be the first time though that the EMT website has been misleading

 

[Bletchleyite]

That quite possibly refers to the large group travel scheme (the largely poor discounts for groups of 10+) rather than GroupSave.

 

[eastdyke]

That quite possibly refers to the large group travel scheme (the largely poor discounts for groups of 10+) rather than GroupSave.

I am pretty sure you are correct, but like I said it is misleading.

 

[mmh]

I'm not sure where you're getting that from - for me the National Rail website says this:

EMT refer to Groupsave on their website and I agree that this is a bit misleading but the key term used there is "GroupSave tickets" as they use specific ticket types, rather than a general discount.

The National Rail website also has a footnote that it's available on Scotrail between Glasgow and Edinburgh, with other routes coming soon! What a farce.

 

[mmh]

That quite possibly refers to the large group travel scheme (the largely poor discounts for groups of 10+) rather than GroupSave.

No, it says groups of 3-9 people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, it says groups of 3-9 people.

This:

https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/Global/Documents/Group Travel Discount Route Map.pdf

does not make any mention of group size, unless I'm being totally thick?

 

[eastdyke]

This:
https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/Global/Documents/Group Travel Discount Route Map.pdf
does not make any mention of group size, unless I'm being totally thick?

No, it's the website! Which says (for groups of 3-9 people):
https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.u...gs/Group-Travel-for-10-or-more/#Groups-of-3-9
[note that it refers to 'Groupsave']

If you’re travelling in a group of 3 – 9 adults, you could save 34% off adult tickets with Groupsave, plus up to four children can also travel with the group for just £1 each. Available as a standard discount, simply purchase your tickets from any Ticket Office and save. Groupsave is available on selected routes and is valid for travel after 0930 on weekdays or anytime at weekends and bank holidays. GroupSave tickets are not valid when your journey starts or finishes in London St Pancras and they are not available to purchase online. All members of the group must travel together for both outward and return journeys. There may be restrictions on journeys, dates and times at which you can travel. Please check with our Specialist Sales Team on 03457 125678 (option 2,2) for more details.

They are a murky lot at EMT

 

[Starmill]

No, it's the website! Which says (for groups of 3-9 people):
https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.u...gs/Group-Travel-for-10-or-more/#Groups-of-3-9
[note that it refers to 'Groupsave']

They are a murky lot at EMT

I give up. What are we to do with information of such varying quality

 

[mmh]

It does strike me that this is very badly worded. What is the meaning of a "journey starting at London St Pancras"? They need to clarify that and fix their website.

Does it mean:-
1. You can't board a train at St Pancras? (This is how most ticket restrictions work) - in which case the OP could presumably have travelled from East Croydon to Luton/Airport Parkway/Bedford on Thameslink (whichever has a service to Market Harborough

That's not true. Time based ticket restrictions are from the origin to destination, as you know, not somewhere you might have to change where other routes may have different restrictions.

The problem here is nothing to do with with time or route restrictions, but whether discounted tickets are valid. My take is if you've been sold them, of course they should be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's not true. Time based ticket restrictions are from the origin to destination, as you know, not somewhere you might have to change where other routes may have different restrictions.

The problem here is nothing to do with with time or route restrictions, but whether discounted tickets are valid. My take is if you've been sold them, of course they should be.

It *is* true. You can implement a ticket restriction electronically based on one or more of the following:

1. Barring a specific train throughout.
2. Barring boarding a train at a given station or set of stations (up to and including "any station") between two times.
3. Barring a train that arrives at a given station or set of stations between two times, regardless of whether you are on it or not when it does.

Any of these can also be limited by TOC.

What it *doesn't* support is barring a train that departs a given station or set of stations between two times if the train would have called there before you boarded it. It only looks at where you board for #2.

These are then applied by ticket, which is probably what you are thinking of.

There are some LNR restrictions which add "Connections may be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time" - but the planners can't codify this and as such return wrong results.

I would agree that they should have been accepted, possibly withdrawn for investigation with a free replacement issued, as if they weren't valid it is a staff, not passenger, error.

 

[Haywain]

The National Rail website also has a footnote that it's available on Scotrail between Glasgow and Edinburgh, with other routes coming soon! What a farce.

Scotrail use the same ticket types as EMT and do not offer or accept the discount.

 

[yorkie]

EMT accept GroupSave but this was quite literally 'the wrong type of GroupSave'.

The rules here are absolutely clear: EMT are contractually obliged to allow travel. They cannot charge the customer any additional fare. They can take photos of the tickets or even withdraw them, providing they issue free of charge replacements.

Unfortunately train companies like EMT, GTR and GWR are ignoring the rules, breaking contract and consumer laws and charging customers.

EMT need to refund you in full for any monies charged.

I am happy to proof read a letter; feel free to send me a direct conversation message.

East Midlands Trains are not part of the main Group Save scheme, but do have their own specific groupsave tickets. Therefore the advice is correct and East Croydon were wrong to sell the tickets.

But staff were wrong to refuse travel. The customer must not be charged again.

This is a classic example where the railway gets it completely wrong. A mistake is made by a TOC - it is correctly picked up by another TOC. Instead of penalising the passengers who did nothing wrong the second TOC should replace the tickets at no charge and bill the first TOC for getting it wrong. Now we have a case of disgrunteld passengers who are less likely to use the train in future and a ticket office that doesnt know it has mis-sold a ticket. And we wonder why no-one trusts the railways.

This is the right answer.

Unfortunately I'm aware of many cases where train companies act in this appauling way. There is no-one with the will and power to stop them.

They even refuse valid tickets!

I' be expecting a full refund from GTR for the cost of the additional tickets that were purchased.

If a delay occurred because of having to sort out new tickets I'd expect GTR to pay delay repay compensation as well.

No, EMT were obliged to accept the tickets. Any dispute between GTR and EMTbis an internal rail industry matter and not the customer's problem.

Customers can not be told to pay again.

The railway doing what the railway does best: ah yes, we do accept GroupSave Tickets, but not tickets with Groupsave.

That's how train companies like EMT like to behave, yes.

And they know no-one can stop them.

 

[Be3G]

I'm not sure where you're getting that from - for me the National Rail website says this:

Hmm, I was looking at this page, which states:

In addition, East Midlands Trains and ScotRail offer Groupsave on certain journeys only.

I'm inclined to say that if looks like a duck, swims like a duck…

Edit: a further thought. If EMT's Groupsave isn't actually the ‘real’ Groupsave, then presumably that means the tickets the OP's kids bought shouldn't even exist?

 

[kilo42]

I am happy to proof read a letter; feel free to send me a direct conversation message.

Thanks Yorkie. I'll contact you next week once I've spoken to my kids.

 

[Hadders]

No, EMT were obliged to accept the tickets. Any dispute between GTR and EMTbis an internal rail industry matter and not the customer's problem.

Customers can not be told to pay again.

Agreed, given that we have now established through EMT's website that the Groupsave tickets should have been accepted. The refund should be made by EMT.

 

[RJ]

The ticket office clerk at East Croydon should have known better.

Just because a ticket can be sold, it doesn't mean it is valid for travel. Part of the job is making sure the customer has the right city and any clerk should be extra cautious when selling Groupsave tickets off patch. I work for a commuter TOC which participates in Groupsave but even I know some TOCs don't accept it and will double check before selling any tickets.

With EMT, my understanding was they don't accept any Groupsave tickets with the standard GSV discount - they have their own GRP discounted tickets or something like that and are not included on NRE as participating in the scheme. That said, my knowledge could well be completely out of date and EMTs own website might well be right, although my suspicion is the bit on there about St Pancras (which does allow a valid argument that the tickets from East Croydon were valid) is a complete load of nonsense as the map on the same page clearly shows that their group discount is valid to and from St Pancras. Still, I'd certainly quote that in a complaint and seek recompense.

I agree that if the wrong tickets are sold in a circumstance like this, they should be honoured if the customer quite rightly doesn't want to pay extra. Customers should be able to trust that the railway's professional ticket sellers are giving them what they asked for, not have to put up with grief like this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming the meaning of the restriction is "you may not board a train at St Pancras", then they likely were valid - by taking Thameslink to Luton, LAP or Bedford and changing onto EMT (EM bus? ) there. Did the clerk advise this, or assume this was what was going to be done?

 

[Haywain]

Assuming the meaning of the restriction is "you may not board a train at St Pancras", then they likely were valid - by taking Thameslink to Luton, LAP or Bedford and changing onto EMT (EM bus? ) there.

The tickets were considered invalid by EMT because EMT do not accept the Groupsave discount. That wouldn't change regardless of where a train was boarded.

In some ways this was like holding a railcard discounted ticket without holding a railcard. For the tickets to be accepted by EMT they should have required an excess to be paid to bring them up to the undiscounted, and entirely acceptable, price.