GTR are threatening to take me to court unless I pay a penalty fare, but I'm certain I'm within the rules as a disabled passenger?

[disabledpass20]

For context, I have a disability - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I have had this condition since I was a child and a long detailed medical history through the NHS; my GP is fully aware of my condition and how it manifests.

My OCD means that I really struggle with using anything in public that you have to touch - for example, I can't press the bell to signal to a bus driver my stop is upcoming, nor hold poles on tubes/buses or escalator handrails etc. This also means using terminals for buying tickets etc is problematic. Fortunately when I'm (for example) shopping, the self-checkout terminals can be operated by quick jabs of the knuckle, so I don't have to 'touch' them; but ticket machines are not so forgiving and tend to need firm hard presses with your fingers.

This has not been a problem up until this incident - I buy tickets on the trainline app which has barcodes I can use.

And in the event that I have to catch a train at the last minute, or cannot get signal at my departure station (both apply to the case in question), GTR's Accessible Travel Policy makes clear that if people with disabilities can't buy tickets before they board, they are free to purchase a ticket on the train, or at their destination. From The Accessible Travel Policy:

"If disabled customers are unable to purchase a ticket at a station before they travel due to our facilities being unavailable, they can buy a ticket without penalty at their destination or from on-board staff (where available)."

On previous occassions I have been in this situation and train conductors have completely understood and respected this.

However, recently I was travelling on a Thameslink train, and I was stopped by 'revenue protection officers'. Here's my account of what transpired:

"On this particular day I was not able to get a mobile phone signal at my departure station, but as outlined above, this did not concern me as I knew I would be able to purchase a ticket on the app when I had a signal, so I got on the train as normal. Since there is almost no signal for much of the first half of a train ride to my destination, I decided I would sort the ticket out later in the journey.

Sometime around the area of East Croydon, I noticed three members of your Revenue Protection Team walking down the train, which prompted me to check my mobile phone signal to sort out my ticket there and then, which seemed the easiest thing to do. Shortly after, one of them asked to see my ticket. I had to wait for the ticket to load, and then I showed him the ticket to be scanned. When he scanned the ticket, he said that he could see from the time of purchase that I had bought the ticket on the train, and that he was going to issue me a penalty fare. I said that this was not applicable or reasonable, and that I would not pay a penalty fare.

At this point his two colleagues had become involved - and while I do not remember exactly who said precisely what, the suggestion was made that I had been attempting to evade paying for a ticket, and only bought a ticket because of the presence of the ticket inspectors. I pointed out that this was absolutely untrue, and that despite ticket inspectors being a rare sight on Thameslink trains, I had numerous tickets in my Trainline history. One of the three asked to see this, and I promptly showed them my ticket history.

It became immediately obvious at this point that two of the three were understanding and could see very clearly that I was not a fare evader. However, the first person who spoke to me was aggressively insistent that I had done something wrong. Throughout the interaction, he stood uncomfortably close to me, which is a trigger for my OCD, and spoke dismissively, making it very clear that there was no point for me to try and explain my situation."

I sent this (and a fuller background) of what happened to GTR when they sent me a letter threatening legal action. I included letters detailing my history of OCD including my diagnosis, and a recent letter from the GP explaining that this was a condition they knew I had suffered with for over a decade and that issues around being unable to touch things like ticketing terminals was something they were aware of. Despite this, GTR are asking me to pay £85 (they say 'including the fare owed' - which is obviously completely wrong because I sent them my ticket that I had on the day). I have disputed this again, but they are standing firm, including on the 'fare owed' bit - which makes me think they're barely paying attention to the case.

Please, could anyone advise me what I should do in this scenario? Honestly £85 is not much money to me at this point in my life, but it's the principle that bothers me. I acted in accordance with their rules, and I'm being penalised for that - and next time it could be a disabled person who is only just getting by financially who is put in this situation.

Many thanks for any help

 

[John R]

Welcome to the forum! A first question is what station did you board at, and is there a ticket office there that was open?

 

[AlterEgo]

Okay, so you are entitled to buy on board or otherwise not use the ticket machine or ticket office if it is inaccessible due to your disability (I note GTR’s accessibility policy unhelpfully suggests this applies only if they are “unavailable”). A few things:

Could we see GTR/Thameslink’s refusal and their original correspondence to you? Please cover your personal details! It would be helpful to know exactly what their objection is.

Do you hold a Disabled Railcard?

I assume buying tickets from a ticket office is also inaccessible to you too? Which two stations was your journey between?

Have you ever come to their attention before?

 

[30907]

An unusual situation which I am not sure is exactly covered by the regulations.

The rules clearly allow you to buy your ticket from onboard staff or at destination if you are unable to use the TVM and no booking office is available.
Do they allow you to defer buying your ticket online because you have no signal? I am not sure - the lack of signal isn't unique to someone with a disability!
Do they allow you to defer buying your ticket online because you arrive too late? Again, I am not sure - unless arriving too late is a direct consequence of your disability?
Finally, do they allow you to defer buying online for a considerable time because of the lack of signal? John R's question is relevant here!

PS GTR will almost certainly settle out of court if you engage with them.

 

[Haywain]

GTR will almost certainly settle out of court if you engage with them.

Which the £85 mentioned clearly covers.

 

[gray1404]

The spanner in the works here is that you purchase the ticket online after the train had departed from your starting station.

If you were going to purchase a ticket online it needs to be done before you set foot on the train. If you're not going to use the facilities at the starting station because of your disability and you decide to get on the train then you must get your ticket from staff during or at the end of the journey.

The disabled persons protection policy does not give you the right to still purchase a ticket online later on in the journey.

So this really does complicate things here. Doesn't sound like the train company have a problem that you're disability stops you using the ticket machines or the ticker's office but rather he purchased a ticket online after your journey had started.

 

[John R]

I’m particularly focusing on the ticket office point, as you said that you couldn’t buy a ticket at the last minute. Which might suggest a ticket office was available and had you had more time you would have been able to use it . Is that the case, and if not, can you be a bit more specific as to what you meant?

 

[AlterEgo]

The spanner in the works here is that you purchase the ticket online after the train had departed from your starting station.

If you were going to purchase a ticket online it needs to be done before you set foot on the train.

It doesn’t.

If you're not going to use the facilities at the starting station because of your disability and you decide to get on the train then you must get your ticket from staff during or at the end of the journey.

There’s no absolute requirement to do this. Penalising a customer in the way you suggest because they bought earlier then their disability entitled them to is ridiculous!

 

[gray1404]

I disagree.

If a ticket is going to be purchased online this must be done before boarding the train.

If they cannot use the ticket office or ticket machine due to their disability that doesn't mean the requirement to purchase online before boarding goes away. Rather it entitles them to purchase from staff during or at the end of the journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

I disagree.

If a ticket is going to be purchased online this must be done before boarding the train.

Show me which bylaw or where in the NRCoT this is stipulated. This is a huge myth on here which needs seriously busting.

Tickets may certainly be purchased after boarding, online, provided the ticket facilities at the origin were unavailable, or otherwise inaccessible.

 

[Snow1964]

The disabled persons protection policy does not give you the right to still purchase a ticket online later on in the journey.

Thats my reading of it too, if you can buy it online, then should be before boarding.

If a disability means can't buy it, then showing an appropriate disability card means there would be no penalty and staff would sell you the ticket as it is first opportunity to buy it.

Getting on the train without a ticket, then buying it just before a ticket inspector comes along rather suggests only bought because it was about to be inspected. Had Op not bought a ticket and said due to disability unable to use machine then Inspector would clearly know that it was not buy when challenge imminent.

The policy on website has been updated this month (April 2025), so possibly depending on date of travel a different policy was in force, which could be another complication.

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-shared-pdfs-and-documents/atp-accessibility-documents/atp-policy-2025.pdf

 

[AlterEgo]

Thats my reading of it too, if you can buy it online, then should be before boarding.

If a disability means can't buy it, then showing an appropriate disability card means there would be no penalty and staff would sell you the ticket as it is first opportunity to buy it.

Getting on the train without a ticket, then buying it just before a ticket inspector comes along rather suggests only bought because it was about to be inspected.

But…that’s exactly the same as buying as soon as the guard comes along, from them, personally, or at the destination?

Sorry but for absolute clarity, for the mobile ticket purists: what Bylaw do you think has been violated?

You are all so lost in the weeds here!

 

[yorkie]

I disagree.

If a ticket is going to be purchased online this must be done before boarding the train.

Thats my reading of it too, if you can buy it online, then should be before boarding.

This may be the rail industry view, but even GTR would concede that had the passenger had not bought online, then they could not have been penalised.

Are you suggesting that a disabled passenger can be penalised against, simply by taking an additional step to buy a ticket, compared to a disabled passenger who does not do that, who cannot be penalised?

If so, do you have any documentation/evidence of this, and is there any case law demonstrating that disabled people can be discriminated against if they subsequently go beyond any obligation they had once they boarded the train, whereas if they had not gone beyond those obligations, then they'd have been merely sold the correct fare?

Or are you both simply taking the view of rogue companies such as GTR at face value, without knowledge of the law (and when it is known that companies such as GTR do break the law)?

 

[enyoueffsea]

It’s worth noting the very nature of the OP’s disability gives a very valid reason to want to buy via mobile on the train rather than go through an interaction with someone [in this case the Inspector] with a ticket handed over.

I appreciate the OP mentions they have purchased from an Inspector before but that also appears from their own post to be the last resort.

It’s probably a valid reason to not use a ticket office, if one is present at the originating station.

This is just rubbish behaviour on the part of the Inspector and even worse that it wasn’t successfully appealed despite the large amount of evidence provided.

 

[saismee]

I agree that OP should have bought a ticket from a member of staff before, during, or after travel, rather than online. I also agree that punishing someone with a disability for trying to resolve it themselves is more than ridiculous. I thought that a PFN can't be issued if the person has a ticket, and a travel irregularity report was the correct way to do it.

Most importantly, I think arguing that OP should've done X or Y instead is unhelpful and unnecessary on this thread - OP was unable to use the facilities, attempted to resolve it themselves, and got unfairly punished. What real difference does it make if the ticket is from a member of staff or from a mobile device if they were entitled to purchase after boarding?

I don't think that GTR have any leg to stand on for prosecution. OP had authority to board the train on the grounds that they could not purchase a ticket due to their condition, and they were then stopped after obtaining a valid ticket. It is also far out of GTR's best interests to prosecute a disabled person for their own poorly-trained RPI's mistake.

OP, if you are able (and willing) to complain about this incident to GTR, please do. Nobody in a customer-facing role should be getting in somebody's personal space and they should be retrained or punished. What exactly are the emails to GTR about? If they are appeals to the Penalty Fare Notice then it will usually take three attempts before an appeal is successful.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't think that GTR have any leg to stand on for prosecution. OP had authority to board the train on the grounds that they could not purchase a ticket due to their condition

Thank you. Finally the correct answer. And that is that. It is an absolute defence to Bylaw 18 regardless of whether the OP then purchased online or from staff.

This is the long and short of it.

 

[John R]

Thank you. Finally the correct answer. And that is that. It is an absolute defence to Bylaw 18 regardless of whether the OP then purchased online or from staff.

This is the long and short of it.

But we haven't yet had confirmation from the OP (who has yet to post more than their first message) that they were unable to use a ticket office, either because there wasn't one, or because of their disability. If there was, and their disability doesn't prevent them using it (and with contactless, there is no need to press a keypad) then does that alter things?

The other point which I think is relevant is that they say the mobile signal is bad for around half their journey, and that they left it until East Croydon, when the ticket offices appeared, to purchase. Now I'm not from the area, but I do wonder how bad the mobile signal is on Thameslink trains travelling in the South East - it feels to me like an area where there would be very good coverage. And also, Thameslink trains have wi-fi, so was there anything to stop a purchase immediately on boarding. Which all points to a set of circumstances which may make GTR suspect that this is a case of pay when challenged, which is why they are digging their heels in.

 

[AlterEgo]

But we haven't yet had confirmation from the OP (who has yet to post more than their first message) that they were unable to use a ticket office, either because there wasn't one, or because of their disability. If there was, and their disability doesn't prevent them using it (and with contactless, there is no need to press a keypad) then does that alter things?

Not in any practical sense. It would be most prescient to know if the OP held a Disabled Railcard. In any case it is up to the OP to decide for themselves if the facilities are accessible, not the TOC or some independent authority. They themselves have said that they “can’t” buy a ticket before boarding.

They have provided substantial evidence to GTR of their disability, so it would be good to know what exactly GTR’s objection to it is so we can formulate a response.

The other point which I think is relevant is that they say the mobile signal is bad for around half their journey, and that they left it until East Croydon, when the ticket offices appeared, to purchase. Now I'm not from the area, but I do wonder how bad the mobile signal is on Thameslink trains travelling in the South East - it feels to me like an area where there would be very good coverage. And also, Thameslink trains have wi-fi, so was there anything to stop a purchase immediately on boarding. Which all points to a set of circumstances which may make GTR suspect that this is a case of pay when challenged, which is why they are digging their heels in.

Paying when challenged isn’t an offence though. The OP appears to have purchased a ticket at an earlier juncture than they were legally obligated to.

 

[saismee]

The other point which I think is relevant is that they say the mobile signal is bad for around half their journey, and that they left it until East Croydon, when the ticket offices appeared, to purchase. Now I'm not from the area, but I do wonder how bad the mobile signal is on Thameslink trains travelling in the South East - it feels to me like an area where there would be very good coverage. And also, Thameslink trains have wi-fi, so was there anything to stop a purchase immediately on boarding. Which all points to a set of circumstances which may make GTR suspect that this is a case of pay when challenged, which is why they are digging their heels in.

As AlterEgo stated, they had no obligation whatsoever to purchase online at all. Maybe they didn't want to give their data to GTR when connecting to the WiFi, so they opted not to connect. Sometimes connection can be iffy on trains even in areas with good coverage... I know I've had my fair share of struggles across multiple lines which you'd

 

[Kath123]

To the OP - I am not an expert on these forums. I’m just a member of the public. But I just wanted to say try not to let the debate on this thread deter you from coming back. As a disabled person I’ve found this forum very helpful but they do examine everything very thoroughly from every angle. At first when I joined I was a bit sensitive to this but the experts here need to do this to be able to give the best advice.

I hope you manage to resolve your situation.

 

[TheTallOne]

You could think about it as practice - every question someone asks, and the answers others give, helps prepare the OP for similar questions during the process.

 

[disabledpass20]

Hi all, thanks for the advice so far - I was out all of yesterday so I'll answer the questions now. I'll put a tl;dr summary at the end

Welcome to the forum! A first question is what station did you board at, and is there a ticket office there that was open?

I boarded at Preston Park Station and there is a ticket office there but I'm not sure if it was open - I don't use that ticket office because it has one of those dishes you have to stick your hand in to get the tickets. I don't mind buying tickets from train conductors because they print them and just hand them to you so I'm ok with that. In regards to your later question about phone signal - it is appalling between Preston Park and Three Bridges, and improves significantly but it's still patchy all the way to London. Once I was on the train I (as I have done before) was going to buy the ticket when I got into London where signal is much better. The only reason I bought it earlier was because I saw the guys checking tickets and figured I would save myself the hassle of having to explain my disability if I just bought it then, and I had the signal to do so.

Okay, so you are entitled to buy on board or otherwise not use the ticket machine or ticket office if it is inaccessible due to your disability (I note GTR’s accessibility policy unhelpfully suggests this applies only if they are “unavailable”). A few things:

Could we see GTR/Thameslink’s refusal and their original correspondence to you? Please cover your personal details! It would be helpful to know exactly what their objection is.

Do you hold a Disabled Railcard?

I assume buying tickets from a ticket office is also inaccessible to you too? Which two stations was your journey between?

Have you ever come to their attention before?

Their correspondence to me has been very nonspecific - they just said on this occasion I owed them £85.40 and when I objected and pointed out there was no 'outstanding fare' in any case (I sent them my trainline ticket history including the date in question which I assume they can access anyway), they just wrote back and said "having considered the points you have raised I am writing to inform you this department will be going forward with the case" - they said the money is made up of a "contribution towards the administration costs of GTR plus the outstanding fare owed". They have not actually said they're charging me a penalty fare.

Thats my reading of it too, if you can buy it online, then should be before boarding.

If a disability means can't buy it, then showing an appropriate disability card means there would be no penalty and staff would sell you the ticket as it is first opportunity to buy it.

Getting on the train without a ticket, then buying it just before a ticket inspector comes along rather suggests only bought because it was about to be inspected. Had Op not bought a ticket and said due to disability unable to use machine then Inspector would clearly know that it was not buy when challenge imminent.

The policy on website has been updated this month (April 2025), so possibly depending on date of travel a different policy was in force, which could be another complication.

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-shared-pdfs-and-documents/atp-accessibility-documents/atp-policy-2025.pdf

The policy has been the same since long before the incident occurred. I tried to buy a ticket at the station but I could not for the life of me get a signal. As far as my interpretation of their policy, that should not have been a problem. I was unable to buy a ticket at the station, and consequently I bought it during my journey. I think it's irrelevant that the inspectors were on the train when I bought the ticket - I could have indeed not bought it until the end station and that still should have been fine. Nor did I owe the inspector any explanation of my medical history (I would have explained my situation in detail had he not been immediately aggressive and made me feel uncomfortable, which made it clear there was going to be no reasoning with him).

Not in any practical sense. It would be most prescient to know if the OP held a Disabled Railcard. In any case it is up to the OP to decide for themselves if the facilities are accessible, not the TOC or some independent authority. They themselves have said that they “can’t” buy a ticket before boarding.

They have provided substantial evidence to GTR of their disability, so it would be good to know what exactly GTR’s objection to it is so we can formulate a response.


Paying when challenged isn’t an offence though. The OP appears to have purchased a ticket at an earlier juncture than they were legally obligated to.

I don't have a disabled railcard - although I now think I should get one. The reason I haven't had one is because the discounts that it offers are the same as are offered by my 26-30 railcard (as far as I'm aware) so I never saw the point. Obviously I regret that right now!

TL;DR:
- I don't have a disabled railcard (never saw the point, I get 1/3 off with 23-60 railcard)
- There is a ticket guy at Preston Park, but I don't know if he was there that day. Nonetheless, the PRP ticket kiosk is a spinny dish one you have to stick your hands in, so I don't use it for the same reason.
- I have no history with GTR or any rail company, I have a long history of buying tickets and have held railcards since I was a teenager.
- There are a few occasions in the past where I have been able to (or forced to in desperate situations) use ticket machines, generally if my anxiety is at a particular ebb that day it can be manageable. However, in the vast majority of circumstances I am not comfortable doing so, hence sticking to Trainline or other apps.
- GTR have not explained what I owe them money for, they just say 'outstanding fare' and 'administrative costs' - what's particularly odd is firstly that they should know because it's been pointed out twice that I have paid for that fare on the day, so there's nothing outstanding. Secondly I thought a penalty fare was £100 so I'm not sure why they are coming for 85 inc outstanding fare?

I'm not really sure what to do now. I really don't want to pay on principle, but of course I don't want to end up with a criminal record.

Thanks again all

 

[philthetube]

I have to admit the op puzzles me, if the op carried a stylus, (computer pen with rubber end) then many problems would be solved for them.

 

[Haywain]

I have to admit the op puzzles me, if the op carried a stylus, (computer pen with rubber end) then many problems would be solved for them.

Agreed, and in my experience TVMs can be operated adequately using a knuckle rather than a finger tip.

 

[disabledpass20]

I have to admit the op puzzles me, if the op carried a stylus, (computer pen with rubber end) then many problems would be solved for them.

There's still getting the tickets out of the delivery tray which involves moving the plastic in front of the tray which is often mucky - of course, I could take disposable latex gloves everywhere, but that's hardly preferable when there exists a perfectly good option currently which is to buy the tickets on my phone, as their policy allows. Nowadays I'm very careful to ensure I buy the ticket before I get to the station in case I have signal problems, unless it's a situation where I suddenly have to catch a train, which is rare.

Agreed, and in my experience TVMs can be operated adequately using a knuckle rather than a finger tip.

Not my experience, and there's still the matter of getting the tickets out of the delivery tray which is covered with a plastic screen you have to move. In any case - with all due respect this isn't a question of 'what alternative systems can we come up with so I can buy paper tickets every time rather than use the mobile app', it's 'am I legally liable given their policies and the documentation/evidence I have presented to them, and will they bother taking this to court or are they just hoping I'll cave and give them 85 quid'.

 

[Titfield]

it's 'am I legally liable given their policies and the documentation/evidence I have presented to them, and will they bother taking this to court or are they just hoping I'll cave and give them 85 quid'.

I do not think we answer the question for you given that we do not know the full circumstances of the "event" and precisely what the train operating company has stated in their correspondence.

I acted in accordance with their rules, and I'm being penalised for that

Have they stated in their correspondence which rules you have (allegedly) broken?

 

[John R]

I’ll ask again, was there was an open ticket office at your departure station, and whether you feel you can purchase tickets from there.

 

[disabledpass20]

I do not think we answer the question for you given that we do not know the full circumstances of the "event" and precisely what the train operating company has stated in their correspondence.



Have they stated in their correspondence which rules you have (allegedly) broken?

I can't find the first letter they sent to me but it was very brief. It basically said I was travelling without a valid ticket - it didn't go into any detail, nothing was said about what the revenue protection officers claimed or any other specifics. It just said that, and that this could lead to prosecution in a magistrates court and that I had two weeks to write back with my side of the story pretty much and upload any tickets. From what I've seen from other posts, the first letter they sent me was very standard.

I wrote back in detail and included my ticket history (including the ticket on the date in question), a letter from the GP on the specifics of my condition relating to these sorts of things, my original diagnosis etc. They wrote back and said 'on this occasion we are writing to offer an out of court settlement of £85.40 including the outstanding fare owed'. I wrote back and said that there was no outstanding fare owed because I bought a ticket on the date in question, as I had included in my first correspondence. They just wrote back and again demanded the same amount, with no mention of where this mystery fare I owe has come from, nor explaining how they reached a figure of £85.40, and saying they are 'going forward with this case' and at the end they said failure to pay may lead to being prosecuted.

I’ll ask again, was there was an open ticket office at your departure station, and whether you feel you can purchase tickets from there.

Apologies John - I did write a long reply to all the questions but for some reason it's stuck waiting for moderator approval. I'll copy what I said to your questions here:

I boarded at Preston Park Station and there is a ticket office there but I'm not sure if it was open - I don't use that ticket office because it has one of those dishes you have to stick your hand in to get the tickets. I don't mind buying tickets from train conductors because they print them and just hand them to you so I'm ok with that. In regards to your later question about phone signal - it is appalling between Preston Park and Three Bridges, and improves significantly but it's still patchy all the way to London. Once I was on the train I (as I have done before) was going to buy the ticket when I got into London where signal is much better. The only reason I bought it earlier was because I saw the guys checking tickets and figured I would save myself the hassle of having to explain my disability if I just bought it then, and I had the signal to do so.

 

[John R]

Thank you for the response. I’m sure it’s frustrating when responses are stuck awaiting moderation as by definition posters here asking for advice will be new members and as you’ll have seen there can be a lot of fast responses from those trying to help.

 

[Titfield]

Please can you upload the letter you sent to them (your reply to their first letter) and the second letter they sent to you?