GTR December 2015 consultation - Coastway

[Hophead]

To avoid derailing the Class 313 thread further and to take up my discussion with Class 377/5, here's what the document has to say about Coastway East & West:

The current trains between London Victoria and Littlehampton will continue at the same frequency as now.
The new faster train (the first train to leave Haywards Heath after detachment) will call at Hove, Shoreham By Sea, Worthing then all stations to Littlehampton. Overall this reduces the journey time to Worthing by five minutes.
The slower train (the second train to leave Haywards Heath after detachment) will call at Hove, Portslade, Shoreham by Sea, Lancing, Worthing then all stations to Littlehampton. (page 11)

It is proposed to reduce the journey time between London, Lewes, Eastbourne and Hastings by approximately five minutes through a combination of minor retiming, possible due to the reorganisation of other trains on the main line, and swapping calling patterns. (page 11)

Sample timetable extract (page 20/21):
HHE arr 1259
HHE dep 13:03 13:06
LWS arr ------ 13:24
HOV arr 13:20

Similar on the opposite half-hour. From which I conclude that detachment of Coastways continues at Haywards Heath in the new timetable (and not to do so would require an additional pair of trains which are not shown in the sample timetable).

This, in turn, indicates the use of 377s. Any continued 442s seem to be likely confined to shoulder peak workings.

Unless, that is, the document has been overtaken by events.

 

[sarahj]

To avoid derailing the Class 313 thread further and to take up my discussion with Class 377/5, here's what the document has to say about Coastway East & West:

The current trains between London Victoria and Littlehampton will continue at the same frequency as now.
The new faster train (the first train to leave Haywards Heath after detachment) will call at Hove, Shoreham By Sea, Worthing then all stations to Littlehampton. Overall this reduces the journey time to Worthing by five minutes.
The slower train (the second train to leave Haywards Heath after detachment) will call at Hove, Portslade, Shoreham by Sea, Lancing, Worthing then all stations to Littlehampton. (page 11)

It is proposed to reduce the journey time between London, Lewes, Eastbourne and Hastings by approximately five minutes through a combination of minor retiming, possible due to the reorganisation of other trains on the main line, and swapping calling patterns. (page 11)

Sample timetable extract (page 20/21):
HHE arr 1259
HHE dep 13:03 13:06
LWS arr ------ 13:24
HOV arr 13:20

Similar on the opposite half-hour. From which I conclude that detachment of Coastways continues at Haywards Heath in the new timetable (and not to do so would require an additional pair of trains which are not shown in the sample timetable).

This, in turn, indicates the use of 377s. Any continued 442s seem to be likely confined to shoulder peak workings.

Unless, that is, the document has been overtaken by events.

Its not a major change. At the moment one train per hour calls Hove, portslade, shoreham, worthing..... the other Hove, shoreham, lancing, worthing....... so its just merging one and leaving out another.
Of course any change of times will mean retimings for the hove shuttles, lewes shuttles, seafords, ores, west worthing stoppers, pompys and southamptons. These all provide connections to and from the vics or are slot around them.

 

[JonathanH]

Given the need for the two trains to pass through Hove at a half-hour interval to fit in with the timing of everything else, I really didn't understand the need to speed one of them up.

When stakeholders say they want quicker journey times, what they actually mean is that they want less concentration on services to Brighton and for each Coastway to have its own trains.

One for the December 2018 timetable consultation may be to try and get the xx02/xx32 path restored from Victoria and run that to the East Coastway and xx17/xx47 to the West Coastway via Hove. That would offer better journey times but whether there would be sufficient stock to run eight coach to both Eastbourne and (perhaps a split at) Hove or Worthing each hour is another question.

 

[neilm]

To avoid derailing the Class 313 thread further and to take up my discussion with Class 377/5, here's what the document has to say about Coastway East & West:

The current trains between London Victoria and Littlehampton will continue at the same frequency as now.
The new faster train (the first train to leave Haywards Heath after detachment) will call at Hove, Shoreham By Sea, Worthing then all stations to Littlehampton. Overall this reduces the journey time to Worthing by five minutes.
The slower train (the second train to leave Haywards Heath after detachment) will call at Hove, Portslade, Shoreham by Sea, Lancing, Worthing then all stations to Littlehampton. (page 11)

It is proposed to reduce the journey time between London, Lewes, Eastbourne and Hastings by approximately five minutes through a combination of minor retiming, possible due to the reorganisation of other trains on the main line, and swapping calling patterns. (page 11)

Sample timetable extract (page 20/21):
HHE arr 1259
HHE dep 13:03 13:06
LWS arr ------ 13:24
HOV arr 13:20

Similar on the opposite half-hour. From which I conclude that detachment of Coastways continues at Haywards Heath in the new timetable (and not to do so would require an additional pair of trains which are not shown in the sample timetable).

This, in turn, indicates the use of 377s. Any continued 442s seem to be likely confined to shoulder peak workings.

Unless, that is, the document has been overtaken by events.

I was following the 313 thread when this came up and was surprised when someone said no splitting at Haywards Heath! I agree it seems to stay with a few minor changes.

I am unsure how they can ever remove it without major changes, the only way I can really see is in 2018 if one Eastbourne an hour become a Thameslink train and one Littlehampton become the same, therefore the paths to London Victoria are not used but this seems not in the plans.

 

[JonathanH]

I was following the 313 thread when this came up and was surprised when someone said no splitting at Haywards Heath! I agree it seems to stay with a few minor changes.

I am unsure how they can ever remove it without major changes, the only way I can really see is in 2018 if one Eastbourne an hour become a Thameslink train and one Littlehampton become the same, therefore the paths to London Victoria are not used but this seems not in the plans.

Splitting at Haywards Heath could have been removed when they introduced the xx21/xx51 semi-fast to Brighton a few years ago but Southern appeared to be attracted by the prospect of a greater share of London to Brighton revenue than servicing the Coastway routes.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Splitting at Haywards Heath could have been removed when they introduced the xx21/xx51 semi-fast to Brighton a few years ago but Southern appeared to be attracted by the prospect of a greater share of London to Brighton revenue than servicing the Coastway routes.

Yes, it was more about extracting revenue from FCC than serving either the east or west coast, hence why the west coast services had to stop additionally at Preston Park.
Also, on a Saturday, many Up London trains are full and standing from Worthing, because they can only be formed of 4 cars, due to the attachments at Haywards Heath. And this has been ongoing since the split/attach timetable has been in, so the problem is known about but ignored.
In any event, the proposals only make a couple of minutes difference, hardly an accelerated service.

 

[neilm]

Splitting at Haywards Heath could have been removed when they introduced the xx21/xx51 semi-fast to Brighton a few years ago but Southern appeared to be attracted by the prospect of a greater share of London to Brighton revenue than servicing the Coastway routes.

Good point but in the end they were only allowed to run one so could it of been possible?

 

[Bishopstone]

Also, on a Saturday, many Up London trains are full and standing from Worthing, because they can only be formed of 4 cars, due to the attachments at Haywards Heath. And this has been ongoing since the split/attach timetable has been in, so the problem is known about but ignored.

Likewise, the opposite half-hour 4 car working from Eastbourne is often full and standing from Lewes. Typically it's the 10: xx departures which are bad. Not a great advertisement for rail travel to non-commuters, when they pass spare units parked in sidings for the weekend.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Likewise, the opposite half-hour 4 car working from Eastbourne is often full and standing from Lewes. Typically it's the 10: xx departures which are bad. Not a great advertisement for rail travel to non-commuters, when they pass spare units parked in sidings for the weekend.

Yes but usually the 4 car portion is because it attaches to an 8 car from the other route.
Summer is the worst, especially in the evenings, when half the train is taken up with overseas students heading back to the coast.

 

[Bishopstone]

Yes but usually the 4 car portion is because it attaches to an 8 car from the other route.
Summer is the worst, especially in the evenings, when half the train is taken up with overseas students heading back to the coast.

The discussion around the future of the 442s has overlooked the fact they form a vital Student-Ex crowd-buster, from and to Eastbourne on Saturdays in the high summer. Without this train, Eastbourne departures for London between 8 and 10 would be an absolute nightmare.

2x442 seem to swallow about 2,000 young Spaniards! It has run either non-stop or via Brighton only. Probably not a bad train to be a Guard on, if you bring some earplugs and a good book!

It sounds as though West Coastway would benefit from a similar working.

 

[evergreenadam]

Likewise, the opposite half-hour 4 car working from Eastbourne is often full and standing from Lewes. Typically it's the 10: xx departures which are bad. Not a great advertisement for rail travel to non-commuters, when they pass spare units parked in sidings for the weekend.

I despair about the use of 4 cars on the Eastbourne-London service. Summer weekend evening trains leave Eastbourne full and standing. Not very pleasant for passengers boarding at Polegate and Lewes returning to London.

 

[Aictos]

Likewise, the opposite half-hour 4 car working from Eastbourne is often full and standing from Lewes. Typically it's the 10: xx departures which are bad. Not a great advertisement for rail travel to non-commuters, when they pass spare units parked in sidings for the weekend.

Not sure if you had noticed but as frustrating as it is and I get frustrated when the likes of Letchworth gets 6 trains a hour and the Peterborough route has to make do with just 2 trains a hour which has the semi fast full and standing leaving Kings Cross on a Saturday night but it's been explained time after time that it's to do with the engineering schedules.

I know it's annoying because there's trains which run which can easily be short formed but are not yet there's trains which run but ought to be lengthened so yes I agree with your argument!

My other question on this proposal is will it actually deliver more good then hassle to users of the line, as I'm not a regular user I'm interested in hearing both sides of the story so to speak.