GTR should reinstate more services on their Southern branded routes

[PGAT]

I think you're a bit confused - there wouldn't be any change to the existing Victoria to Dorking/Horsham services (apart from restoring the old Victoria to Epsom slow and making the Dorking/Horsham service fast again), I'm only suggesting the London Bridge to Epsom service is extended to Guildford and the Waterloo to Guildford is diverted to Dorking.

Okay I see. Still, Southern don't have the units available for that

 

[London Trains]

Okay I see. Still, Southern don't have the units available for that

Slightly outlandish solution but since SWR will have more 701s than they need (if they ever enter service!), maybe SWR could take over the Brighton to Southampton service using 8 coach 450s, and use some of the 701s on Basingstoke and Alton services?

 

[JonathanH]

Slightly outlandish solution but since SWR will have more 701s than they need (if they ever enter service!), maybe SWR could take over the Brighton to Southampton service using 8 coach 450s, and use some of the 701s on Basingstoke and Alton services?

Why are 8-coach 450s needed between Brighton and Southampton?

 

[London Trains]

Why are 8-coach 450s needed between Brighton and Southampton?

Ok, they can be 4 coach if the capacity is not needed, but my point stands...

 

[PGAT]

Slightly outlandish solution but since SWR will have more 701s than they need (if they ever enter service!), maybe SWR could take over the Brighton to Southampton service using 8 coach 450s, and use some of the 701s on Basingstoke and Alton services?

If SWR have surplus 701s couldn't they just restore 2tph to Guildford and/or Dorking instead?

 

[London Trains]

If SWR have surplus 701s couldn't they just restore 2tph to Guildford and/or Dorking instead?

They'll still have surplus units after doing that.

 

[PGAT]

They'll still have surplus units after doing that.

So assuming SWR extend to Brighton without any unexpected issues, that frees up 8 units for Southern. Is that even enough?

 

[London Trains]

So assuming SWR extend to Brighton without any unexpected issues, that frees up 8 units for Southern. Is that even enough?

Yes that's more than enough to extend the London Bridge to Epsom services to Guildford.

 

[PGAT]

Yes that's more than enough to extend the London Bridge to Epsom services to Guildford.

Don't forget re-introducing the Epsom stoppers

 

[London Trains]

Don't forget re-introducing the Epsom stoppers

They already run at peak times so they can be restored with very few extra units.

 

[PGAT]

They already run at peak times so they can be restored with very few extra units.

Fair enough then. I also must admit my idea of diverting the Horsham/Dorking services to London Bridge is just crazy. Upon further inspection the number of people using the Victoria side outnumbers those for London Bridge by about 10 times

 

[devon_belle]

If SWR have surplus 701s couldn't they just restore 2tph to Guildford and/or Dorking instead?

My experience getting the SWR via Bookham is that it is pretty empty all the time. This is only post-2020 though.

I think the most capacity is needed between Raynes Park and Epsom. Is it just that SWR couldn't spin their trains easily at Epsom? Or is there a good market for 2tph SWR to Guildford?

How would it compare to having 1tph to Waterloo and 1tph to Victoria on that line, do you think?

 

[PGAT]

My experience getting the SWR via Bookham is that it is pretty empty all the time. This is only post-2020 though.

I think the most capacity is needed between Raynes Park and Epsom. Is it just that SWR couldn't spin their trains easily at Epsom? Or is there a good market for 2tph SWR to Guildford?

How would it compare to having 1tph to Waterloo and 1tph to Victoria on that line, do you think?

I don’t travel on that line much but I reckon there’s enough demand to justify 2tph between Epsom and Guildford stations, maybe not the intermediate stations however. If not, then it is relatively easy to turn around at Epsom either at Platform 2 or from the Up siding

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I don’t travel on that line much but I reckon there’s enough demand to justify 2tph between Epsom and Guildford stations, maybe not the intermediate stations however. If not, then it is relatively easy to turn around at Epsom either at Platform 2 or from the Up siding

There probably is enough demand - if they re-instated the former frequency; the current hourly frequency is a deterrent to the use of Bookham.

If there's not enough stock for SWR to run the half hourly through the Guildford from Epsom, terminating and turning back at Effingham Junction would probably be an acceptable compromise - provided of course the connection each way with the via Cobham was good.

I agree with those who say the best solution for the Southern issue would be to re-instate the Victoria - Epsom stopping service and restore the Dorking / Horsham services to the semi fast basis between Clapham Junction and Sutton.

 

[JonathanH]

If there's not enough stock for SWR to run the half hourly through the Guildford from Epsom, terminating and turning back at Effingham Junction would probably be an acceptable compromise - provided of course the connection each way with the via Cobham was good.

SWR feel that they need to serve Dorking still which gives rise to only one off-peak train an hour from Leatherhead to Guildford. Any move to reinstate 2tph via Bookham would come at the expense of 0tph SWR service to Dorking and reliance solely on Southern.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

SWR feel that they need to serve Dorking still which gives rise to only one off-peak train an hour from Leatherhead to Guildford. Any move to reinstate 2tph via Bookham would come at the expense of 0tph SWR service to Dorking and reliance solely on Southern.

No, I mean restore the 15 minute service on the Epsom route - not diverting the existing SWR Dorking. Put that back up to 30 minutes as well...

The demand is certainly there on the up side of of Epsom to support the 15 minute frequency; the existing service is frequently full and standing from Stoneleigh inwards.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Here is an idea. How about Southern do like a half-hourly to Dorking and Horsham from London Victoria via Sutton? I would say that 8 coaches and 4 of the 8 coaches would go to Horsham and the other 4 would terminate at Dorking.

 

[PGAT]

Here is an idea. How about Southern do like a half-hourly to Dorking and Horsham from London Victoria via Sutton? I would say that 8 coaches and 4 of the 8 coaches would go to Horsham and the other 4 would terminate at Dorking.

I’m not sure why that’s necessary. 2tph isn’t needed south of Horsham all it does is increase journey times further

 

[devon_belle]

Here is an idea. How about Southern do like a half-hourly to Dorking and Horsham from London Victoria via Sutton? I would say that 8 coaches and 4 of the 8 coaches would go to Horsham and the other 4 would terminate at Dorking.

If this was done, and I agree with PGAT it isn't needed, I would suggest running one of these fast Dorking to Horsham. Not sure it would be timed favourably compared to via Three Bridges, but it could stimulate some traffic between Dorking and Horsham, relieving the A24.

 

[JonathanH]

Not sure it would be timed favourably compared to via Three Bridges, but it could stimulate some traffic between Dorking and Horsham, relieving the A24.

There is broadly no chance of substantial extra custom between Dorking and Horsham. Dorking station is poorly located for most of the people who live there and indeed for the town.

 

[moonarrow458]

I think Boxhill gets a far better service than it deserves. I don't think Horsham–Dorking deserves more trains, but they should be faster to London to entice customers back to the railway. The ideal situation would be separating the Epsom stoppers out again, and giving the Horsham trains fewer stops (as opposed to the Dorking ones). SWR should be able to cater for stations like Boxhill if they bring back more services to Dorking. During engineering works a few months ago, I noted that Victoria-Epsom-Horsham took about 45 minutes. I think something that did Victoria-Clapham-(Balham?)-Sutton-Cheam-Epsom-then all stops except Boxhill would work well. Obviously, I know nothing about whether this fits within the timetable.

A lot of time could be saved on the Up trains too. Up to 7 mins at Dorking, a few mins of dwell at stations en route, then as many as 8 mins outside Victoria. The 08:xx off Horsham is booked into Victoria at 09:49 but routinely arrives at 09:41. Lots of angry muttering from the commuters! My Down journey is currently 8 mins faster than the Up.

Ranting over, hope this helps give perspective. More / faster trains please, GTR!

I do agree that Mole valley line services do need speeding up, they are horrifically slow, especially the Southern ones, with too much pathing time.

Regarding Box Hill i do think it is overserved on weekdays with every single train stoppping there, but on weekends with the considerable leisure draw to the area i do think it is right that every train on the weekends stops there, i know up until a few years ago the vast majority of SWR serviced skipped Box Hill but id say it is an improvement that SWR stop at Box Hill.

That 08xx off Horsham 2I13 yes does have a longer than usual dwell at Clapham and extra pathing time into Victoria, getting in at 0949 whereas most other ex Horsham Mole valley services get in at xx45 so its only 4 mins longer in that respect.

As for retiming it into Victoria earlier, it might be possible but not without some tweaks to platforming, which then might throw up other constraints. 2I13 ex Horsham is booked into pl10 at 0949 (based off the June24 timetable) and has to wait outside Victoria for the 0946 2B94 to Selhurst to depart pl10. 2I13 forms 2B36 to Epsom Downs at 1000 so to get 2I13 in any earlier you'd need to have an availible platform 0942-1002 of which there is only one in the june timetable on the Sussex side. Pl17 is free 0942 to 1002 however with fast line services 1W13 ex BTN due in at 0941 into pl13, 1B15 ex BOG due into pl16 0945, and 1R95 ex REI due into pl19 at 0949 and a 0946 littlehampton departure from pl15 you would not be able to find a path for 2I13 into pl17.

All other platforms are occupied within the relevant time frame on the Sussex side, however (again based onto the june24 timetable) you could POSSIBLY route 2I13 into pl8 (shared between SN & SE). However in order to route 2I13 into platform 8 you would need to move the Southeastern units (2U66 which forms 5L66) occupying the platform 0954-1020 to pl5 which is free 0940-1021. You would then need to retime the ECS 5L66 a few minutes earlier from 1020 to 1017 to free up pl5 for 1P20 ex RAM.

So in a long winded explanation yes you could probably get 2I13 08xx exHorsham into Victoria a few minutes earlier but it would require the cooperation of Southeastern to adjust their platforming and timings slightly. Whether GTR considers this worth the effort im not sure.
I suspect the occaisons in which youve arrived earlier have been as a result of 0946 to Selhurst either being cancelled or replatformed and thus freeing up a platform for your earlier arrival.

 

[PGAT]

Regarding Box Hill i do think it is overserved on weekdays with every single train stoppping there, but on weekends with the considerable leisure draw to the area i do think it is right that every train on the weekends stops there, i know up until a few years ago the vast majority of SWR serviced skipped Box Hill but id say it is an improvement that SWR stop at Box Hill.

It only has 2tph, one from SWR, one from Southern. The other tph starts from Dorking and skips Box Hill

 

[moonarrow458]

It only has 2tph, one from SWR, one from Southern. The other tph starts from Dorking and skips Box Hill

Ahh right i wasnt aware that had changed as im fairly sure that up until recently all southern trains stopped at Box hill but perhaps that changed when they slashed the Epsom stoppers from Victoria

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Ahh right I wasn't aware that had changed as I'm fairly sure that up until recently all southern trains stopped at Box Hill but perhaps that changed when they slashed the Epsom stoppers from Victoria

Rather illogically, one of them skips Ewell East - although that does at least have both London Bridge services calling each hour, but the other Victoria should call there as well. It doesn't even save any time skipping Ewell East as the train then just dwells at Cheam in the up direction and Epsom in the down direction.

I would therefore suggest the missing Ewell East call should be reinstated.

 

[PGAT]

Rather illogically, one of them skips Ewell East - although that does at least have both London Bridge services calling each hour, but the other Victoria should call there as well. It doesn't even save any time skipping Ewell East as the train then just dwells at Cheam in the up direction and Epsom in the down direction.

I would therefore suggest the missing Ewell East call should be reinstated.

Even more bizarrely, the other Victoria trains stop in the peak and shoulder peak hours

 

[nw1]

Slightly outlandish solution but since SWR will have more 701s than they need (if they ever enter service!), maybe SWR could take over the Brighton to Southampton service using 8 coach 450s, and use some of the 701s on Basingstoke and Alton services?

Why would you have inner-suburban stock to Basingstoke and Alton?

Did BR or SWT ever consider EPBs or 455s for these lines? (rhetorical question)

I do agree that Mole valley line services do need speeding up, they are horrifically slow, especially the Southern ones, with too much pathing time.

I do wonder why Dorking only has (more or less) all-stations services to London, and since the diversion of Bognor services, often has done, aside from a fairly lengthy period (pre-Covid) when there was a half-hourly service which ran fast from Clapham to Sutton.

Is there insufficient demand to bring back the old Clapham, Sutton then all stations (one skipping Boxhill), which was a reasonable compromise between an expensive fast and the current all-stations stopper?

Dorking is a sizeable town yet is fairly unique for a town that far out, for lacking semi-fast services into London. Imagine, for example, if the East Grinsteads called at all stations between Clapham and East Croydon as a cost-saving measure.

 

[moonarrow458]

Perhaps an entire recast of the Mole valley lines is needed.
Southern are currently critically short of rolling stock, and will continue to be even with the extra 387s from GN, whilst once (or rather IF) SWR manage to get the 701s into full service combined with the 458s, and their existing fleet it might be more desirable to swap service patterns around to take account of the respective rolling stock of each TOC, perhaps:
2tph Waterloo to Dorking via Worcester Park (all stations, 1tph for Boxhill)
Of which 1tph continues all stations to Horsham
1tph Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom (all stations)
1tph Waterloo to Epsom via Worcester Park (all stations)

2tph London Victoria to Epsom
of which 1tph continues to Dorking (Clapham, Carshalton, Sutton, Ewell East, Cheam, Epsom then all stations to Dorking)
2tph London Bridge to Epsom (all stations Norwood Jnct to Epsom) of which 1tph continues to Guildford semi-fast Leatherhead to Guildford)
2tph london Victoria to Sutton Loop via Mitcham Junction (all stations)

That would give all stations Raynes Park to Epsom at least 4tph like pre Covid and give stations Dorking to Horsham inclusive a faster service into London as SWR via Worcester Park is faster than SN via Sutton

Epsom to Leatherhead would have 4tph, epsom to guildford would regain 2tph but with 1tph to London Bridge to improve connectivity from Croydon and Sutton to Leatherhead and Guildford
The Sutton Loop would get 4tph which would hopefully increase the usefulness of the service along there
Epsom to London would have 8tph to London compared to the precovid 10tph, but an uplift from the present 6tph which ought to better match capacity to demand)
The losers would be Balham, Hackbridge, Mitcham to Stations Sutton to Horsham Inclusive who would have a same platform interchange at Sutton.

Whether such a timetable could be practically constructed with relatively even service patterns south of Epsom (ie. Not 2tph Epsom to Dorking within 10 mins of eachother) im not sure.

 

[PGAT]

I do wonder why Dorking only has (more or less) all-stations services to London, and since the diversion of Bognor services, often has done, aside from a fairly lengthy period (pre-Covid) when there was a half-hourly service which ran fast from Clapham to Sutton.

Is there insufficient demand to bring back the old Clapham, Sutton then all stations (one skipping Boxhill), which was a reasonable compromise between an expensive fast and the current all-stations stopper?

Dorking is a sizeable town yet is fairly unique for a town that far out, for lacking semi-fast services into London. Imagine, for example, if the East Grinsteads called at all stations between Clapham and East Croydon as a cost-saving measure.

Yeah Dorking has had a very weak recovery to the pandemic but Dorking Deepdene is more or less back at 2019 levels. I bet it might be partly thanks to specific journey times being lower from Dorking Deepdene and 2tph to Gatwick.

Like obviously the Victoria trains have been slowed down but other journeys like Dorking to London Bridge would’ve taken an hour, now it takes about 74 minutes. From Dorking Deepdene that would take 57 minutes with a change at Redhill, plus now you have the option to stay on that train and reach the Thameslink core as well.

 

[nw1]

Yeah Dorking has had a very weak recovery to the pandemic but Dorking Deepdene is more or less back at 2019 levels. I bet it might be partly thanks to specific journey times being lower from Dorking Deepdene and 2tph to Gatwick.

Like obviously the Victoria trains have been slowed down but other journeys like Dorking to London Bridge would’ve taken an hour, now it takes about 74 minutes. From Dorking Deepdene that would take 57 minutes with a change at Redhill.

Looks like the overall fastest journey from Dorking to any terminal is Waterloo at 53m, despite being all-stations, and the Redhill route is one minute faster than the Victoria. Wonder if Dorking Main passengers now favour the Waterloo over the Victoria as the latter has lost its limited-stop advantage?

Would there even be a case, post-701, for truncating the Victoria-Dorking services at Epsom, at least until they have the funds/stock to bring the semi-fast back, and have Dorking Main served with Waterloo services only (1tph extending to Horsham)?

 

[PGAT]

Looks like the overall fastest journey from Dorking to any terminal is Waterloo at 53m, despite being all-stations, and the Redhill route is one minute faster than the Victoria. Wonder if Dorking Main passengers now favour the Waterloo over the Victoria as the latter has lost its limited-stop advantage?

Would there even be a case for truncating the Victoria service at Epsom, at least until they have the funds/stock to bring the semi-fast back?

I’m not too sure about the Victoria service. The change via Redhill sucks because it’s a 26 min wait (compared to 3 min wait for the Thameslink and it’s cross-platform) so it still does get some use. It’s just a shame the journey is so slow because it’s really hard to get around this. According to the ORR origin destination matrix, Waterloo has overtaken Victoria but it’s impossible to tell how many people use each service to go to say Clapham Junction or Epsom bearing in mind the Waterloo service is only once an hour