Guardian article: SWR leaves passengers stranded

[Masboroughlad]

Blame the victim!


Too true. There needs to be a re-balancing of the relationship between staff and customers. Railways are supposed to be for the benefit of the country; not the other way around!

2127 from Manchester to Birmingham tonight. Far too many people to safely get.on the train.

I was told it wasn't their problem (station staff), if I could not physically get on my last train home. I had a ticket, they were rude and unhelpful. Fortunately, a very helpful Train Manager helped in the end.

Common sense, courtesy and providing me with a journey home were not deemed appropriate. Just get the train off the station -.profit not passenger driven.

Shouldn't the railways work with the Government and vice versa, on Covid? I've seen ten carriage trains (double usual) carrying around lots if empty space recently. Tonight, 4 coaches with 7 or 8 coaches worth of people. Covid pool.

Trains need to get much better at managing demand. Yes, the good old days, but extra coaches and relief services solved problems.

Peak demand needs managing much better. Cross TOC thinking.

 

[robbeech]

I was told it wasn't their problem (station staff), if I could not physically get on my last train home.

Whilst this is of course untrue, who is going to fight your battle? It’s you against the railway. Thankfully a decent guard (of which most are) sorted things but yes you’d have been left to fend for yourself if not. Nobody would have helped, they’d already clarified their position on that matter.

 

[johnnychips]

With what specifically?

Just how you felt the rail company let you down

 

[pompeyfan]

I’ve found the original tweet exchange, I believe it was the day the west of England line was washed out in 3 separate places. If the weather was that bad taxis and coaches wouldn’t be out and about. I don’t really know how else the railway could have got the passengers to their destination. No taxi available, no coaches, no rail line.

I would imagine the stock would have shunted over to the sidings at Yeovil and berthed for the night.

https://twitter.com/anna_tims/status/1451467247751467008?s=21

 

[YorkshireBear]

Whilst this is of course untrue, who is going to fight your battle? It’s you against the railway. Thankfully a decent guard (of which most are) sorted things but yes you’d have been left to fend for yourself if not. Nobody would have helped, they’d already clarified their position on that matter.

Is it actually in any of the rules/conditions of carriage etc. That it is the TOCs responsibility if the last train is too full for people to physically board?

 

[cactustwirly]

I’ve found the original tweet exchange, I believe it was the day the west of England line was washed out in 3 separate places. If the weather was that bad taxis and coaches wouldn’t be out and about. I don’t really know how else the railway could have got the passengers to their destination. No taxi available, no coaches, no rail line.

I would imagine the stock would have shunted over to the sidings at Yeovil and berthed for the night.

https://twitter.com/anna_tims/status/1451467247751467008?s=21

So why was alternative transport promised

 

[robbeech]

Is it actually in any of the rules/conditions of carriage etc. That it is the TOCs responsibility if the last train is too full for people to physically board?

By the last train being too full to board your journey has been disrupted by the railway.

28.2 refers to disruption preventing you from making your journey.

So why was alternative transport promised

To get passengers to comply and alight the train so they could drive off ECS. That’s not to say the guard made it up, but someone will have, either assuming they would be able to get buses or just to draw a line under it and hope the fall out is t too bad (eg, hope there isn’t anyone on the train with any knowledge or contacts that could turn it into a thing)

 

[Tomnick]

I’ve found the original tweet exchange, I believe it was the day the west of England line was washed out in 3 separate places. If the weather was that bad taxis and coaches wouldn’t be out and about. I don’t really know how else the railway could have got the passengers to their destination. No taxi available, no coaches, no rail line.

I would imagine the stock would have shunted over to the sidings at Yeovil and berthed for the night.

https://twitter.com/anna_tims/status/1451467247751467008?s=21

Looking at this record (Charlwood House open data), there was an Up train 40 minutes later that was started short from Yeovil Junction (vice Exeter), so it's likely that the unit shunted over to the other platform to form that?

Passengers potentially refusing to leave the unit is understandable, but they can't see the bigger picture and the end result is that you end up potentially stranding others trying to get back the other way too. The company also has a duty of care to its crew too, of course. There was a connection to Pen Mill half an hour later - I wonder if anyone thought to direct people to that? - otherwise perhaps it'd have been sensible to suggest taking folk back to Salisbury.

 

[pompeyfan]

So why was alternative transport promised

By the last train being too full to board your journey has been disrupted by the railway.

28.2 refers to disruption preventing you from making your journey.


To get passengers to comply and alight the train so they could drive off ECS. That’s not to say the guard made it up, but someone will have, either assuming they would be able to get buses or just to draw a line under it and hope the fall out is t too bad (eg, hope there isn’t anyone on the train with any knowledge or contacts that could turn it into a thing)

The intention was to resource rail replacement, which subsequently fell through. It’s not a lie.

the article even states the only taxi willing to convey the child was charging £250 for the 2 hour trip due to the conditions.

regardless of whether it was promised or not, what could the railway have done differently to get the passengers to their destination? Buses and taxis did not exist. The last down service from Castle Cary to Exeter would have departed by then and I believe the line washed out around Taunton anyway.

Looking at this record (Charlwood House open data), there was an Up train 40 minutes later that was started short from Yeovil Junction (vice Exeter), so it's likely that the unit shunted over to the other platform to form that?

Passengers potentially refusing to leave the unit is understandable, but they can't see the bigger picture and the end result is that you end up potentially stranding others trying to get back the other way too. The company also has a duty of care to its crew too, of course. There was a connection to Pen Mill half an hour later - I wonder if anyone thought to direct people to that? - otherwise perhaps it'd have been sensible to suggest taking folk back to Salisbury.

I can’t see the up train which started at YVJ, can you reference the head code please?

 

[Tomnick]

I can’t see the up train which started at YVJ, can you reference the head code please?

1L80, at 21:29 (it's not immediately obvious without clicking on "details").

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

I thought the final bit about Passenger Rights and the Ombudsman was like a message from a 'parallel universe'. Clearly, neither of these was in practice strong enough to influence what happened -- in reality! (SWR: looking at you, here!)

Probably the main learning point in practice is to strongly advise pax on days like Oct 22 not to travel at all, bit like what happened following the storm in Southern Scotland/ the North East two weeks ago....

 

[Wolfie]

Where to start.

Oh, it's the miserablist Guardian and a person in a privileged position (as a national journalist) pursuing a personal story (her own son). Easy copy or what!

Everything seems to have been resolved, fares refunded, extra costs re-imbursed and an apology issued.

There is an issue about people not being provided with onward transport.

A locked station. We had one of those a short while back. In that case (Blackburn) it was physically impossible to leave the premises. Here the passengers were not physically prevented from leaving railway premises, it was the station building which was locked.

Detail on the actual time that the abandonment took place is vague, references to 2300 (but that was after time had elapsed) and near to midnight (when they finally arrived at a hotel). 1820 from Waterloo (December 2021 timetable) arrives at Yeovil Junction at 2040, no mention of what the train delay was on the day. What happened to all the subsequent trains scheduled to call at Yoevil Junction that day - including ones reversing to Yeovil Pen Mill (much closer to the town centre)?

The 16 year old was not alone - there were other adults present - but that is not a guarantee of assistance nor safety. He was considered sensible enough to travel on his own even if put onto the train in person and met in person at the other end (not stated in the article).

The issue I would have is of detraining passengers, into the cold and dark with minimal shelter and people not necessarily fully equipped for such circumstances. My view would be that passengers should not be detrained until the onward transport is confirmed, preferably present on-site. Better for them to sit on the train and wait - and if that means having to pay overtime to the driver and guard, or even leave the train in the platform until another can rescue it, so be it.

Edit
The reversing trains, are they a feature added with the timetable change this weekend?

Talk about uber railway apologist - shooting the messenger for epic and abject failure by the TOC. Bring in EU airline style compensation, make TOCs pay it for failures like this out of their management fees and yes if staff eff up this badly dismissals should follow.

If you don't recognise this as unacceptable and think bare minimum financial recompense is acceptable you don't belong in any customer service job.

 

[cactustwirly]

The intention was to resource rail replacement, which subsequently fell through. It’s not a lie.

the article even states the only taxi willing to convey the child was charging £250 for the 2 hour trip due to the conditions.

regardless of whether it was promised or not, what could the railway have done differently to get the passengers to their destination? Buses and taxis did not exist. The last down service from Castle Cary to Exeter would have departed by then and I believe the line washed out around Taunton anyway.



I can’t see the up train which started at YVJ, can you reference the head code please?

Not leave them stranded in the middle of nowhere to fend for themselves?
Surely Salisbury would have been better as it has facilities and hotels nearby.

 

[Wolfie]

also reminds me of thread 216890

west-midlands-trains-duty-of-care-lnr-passengers-abandoned-on-platform

Reading this forum, it seems that abandoning passengers, failure in duty of care and non-existent promised onward transport happens regularly enough that one day it will happen to each and every one of us.

This is inconvenient and uncomfortable enough for most of us but particularly bad news for vulnerable passengers.

If a station is locked and there's nowhere staffed, warm, dry and safe for passengers to await rescue surely passengers should not be disembarked until safety is assured. I mean for example not until until replacement road transport has actually arrived or station waiting facilities are powered up and unlocked.

Absolutely.

If railway staff don't care about the passengers why should Joe Taxpayer care about them...

Glad we got a “overreaction, lot of fuss over nothing, railway can down no wrong” post in nice and early anyway. Can sometimes be left hanging until at least page 2 for one of those.

SWR also kicked about 40 people off a train and ran it empty last night letting them all fend for themselves despite being staffed. Seems to be absolutely normal and expected of the railway today.

Agreed. Utterly pathetic asslicking BS.

The "extreme" I'm complaining about is actually the generalising going on that seems to lump all railway staff into one category of "can't care, won't care" - something that is happening here with an alarming increase in frequency.

And all that achieves here is to drive away those staff (which are likely a majority in the industry) who very much DO care and do what they can to deliver good service, but get rather sick and tired of the condescension and contempt written here, oft-times unthinkingly.

Now I would be first in line to opine that the railway needs a lot of improving in some areas, but on the other hand, having travelled extensively in other countries and used their railway systems, there is also much here that is done well, not that one would think that reading this forum. Such is life, we only generally feel moved to put pen to paper or finger to keyboard when it's to have a good old rant. Myself included...

That is a measured post from someone who obviously does care, thank you for that and your good work. Where though is the evidence of such care from any of the staff involved in the incident described, which is sadly far from unique?

It is hard to avoid being bullied off a train when the police are available to support the bully.

When the police come they have a duty of care obligation to the passengers, particularly minors. Otherwise BTP will be facing IPCO and having their asses sued off.

If the initial response as quoted in the article from swr customer service that a 16 year old should not be travelling on the train if they cannot book a hotel is accurate that's disgusting.

I'm sure that the relevant MP and then the Secretary of State for Transport when he gets a parliamentary letter will find that response interesting....

Blame the victim!


Too true. There needs to be a re-balancing of the relationship between staff and customers. Railways are supposed to be for the benefit of the country; not the other way around!

Too damned right.

Not leave them stranded in the middle of nowhere to fend for themselves?
Surely Salisbury would have been better as it has facilities and hotels nearby.

Agreed.

 

[185]

Reading some replies on here, is like the 'Counterpoint' sketch in the film Airplane! "they bought their tickets, they KNEW what they where getting into... I say, LET 'EM CRASH!"

As usual the blame game starts with the train company trying to blame the frontline staff, and in some cases they are right - at some (not all) operators staff do have a 'check the last train' procedure which occasionally hasn't been followed, but in many cases, especially in mornings where stations are left locked up, the fault lies entirely with both finance & ops directors who imposed cuts on spare / GPR staff leading to no-one left to open the station when short staffed, and passengers clambering over tracks. In other cases responsibility lies with control firstly cancelling then at the last minute reinstating a last train, but not bothering / forgetting to contact stations which have to be locked up.

TPE, Stalybridge locked up in the morning - Manchester Evening News (2013)

Passengers take lives in their hands after Stalybridge station fails to open on time

People waiting for the first train from the Tameside station jumped down onto the railway and ran across tracks just minutes before the service arrived.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

In either instance, train companies should be hit with hefty penalties to ensure staff either leave the station unlocked after leaving, or adequate cover is provided in mornings to ensure a keyholder can unlock a station (or footbridge/subway/access path).

 

[Falcon1200]

In either instance, train companies should be hit with hefty penalties to ensure staff either leave the station unlocked after leaving, or adequate cover is provided in mornings to ensure a keyholder can unlock a station (or footbridge/subway/access path).

I understood from the article that in this case the station was not locked up leaving passengers unable to exit, but unstaffed and therefore with the buildings and shelter inaccessible.

 

[tspaul26]

the only taxi willing to convey the child was charging £250 for the 2 hour trip

taxis did not exist

It is not possible for both of these statements to be true.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

At least Scotrail didn't attempt to detrain passengers at Huntly during Storm Arwen recently.

 

[Wolfie]

It is not possible for both of these statements to be true.

Exactly. The railway not being prepared to pay the fare is more likely. Perhaps making it extortionately expensive for TOCs to do that might teach them a lesson.

 

[Turtle]

Glad we got a “overreaction, lot of fuss over nothing, railway can down no wrong” post in nice and early anyway. Can sometimes be left hanging until at least page 2 for one of those.

SWR also kicked about 40 people off a train and ran it empty last night letting them all fend for themselves despite being staffed. Seems to be absolutely normal and expected of the railway today.

Hear! Hear!

 

[Wolfie]

I understood from the article that in this case the station was not locked up leaving passengers unable to exit, but unstaffed and therefore with the buildings and shelter inaccessible.

To be very clear that is still wholly unacceptable.

 

[baza585]

Talk about uber railway apologist - shooting the messenger for epic and abject failure by the TOC. Bring in EU airline style compensation, make TOCs pay it for failures like this out of their management fees and yes if staff eff up this badly dismissals should follow.

If you don't recognise this as unacceptable and think bare minimum financial recompense is acceptable you don't belong in any customer service job.

To be fair, it is very unusual for the Grauniad to publish anything about events outside the M25.

I doubt there would have been an article had the journalist's son not been involved.

Not exactly investigative journalism at its finest is it.........

 

[nanstallon]

What it comes down to is that people are losing confidence and trust in the railway to get them there. BR had many faults, but generally you knew that they would get you there, even if late. They didn't just abandon you.

 

[Horizon22]

Operationally, I’m intrigued as to what the alternative should be - it appears that the line was blocked for whatever reason towards Exeter and therefore the train could go no further. Ultimately this service then had to return somewhere - it is not clear if this was ECS or an up train from Yeovil Junction and it was almost 2 months ago so RTT won’t show it.

Train companies have been struggling with getting replacement transport for months (see HGV crisis) & that includes taxis. What has been a perfectly normal “taxis will be along shortly” which used to be taken for granted as an announcement is now much harder, and will be especially so in severe weather disruption (as the article says). So yes more care should be taken & communication should have perhaps been clearer. But I’m not sure SWR would have been physically able to get the passengers to that destination that night.

In that case terminating at a staffed station would have been better, but are there any via Honiton at that time of night with a suitable crossover? Salisbury might have been better but again further away and it is hard to ascertain when exactly staff would have known the train couldn’t reach its destination if the line was blocked after departing Salisbury. Alternatively it might have been an issue with crew hours.

Ultimately it would have been nice for the conductor & driver to stay with the passengers for an amount of time but they can only go from information they have received about onward transport which may have been inaccurate (even if not wilfully so like some posters have been implying). Also was this the last train of the night? If it was, I’d have expected SWR to have stepped up their game somewhat as that should always have been protected. Crew will normally stay on for the last train as well.

At the very least, SWR did seem to reimburse all the costs. SWR certainly did have some faults here (primarily communication what a surprise) but the article has a tad of hyperbole too.

 

[pompeyfan]

Reading some replies on here, is like the 'Counterpoint' sketch in the film Airplane! "they bought their tickets, they KNEW what they where getting into... I say, LET 'EM CRASH!"

As usual the blame game starts with the train company trying to blame the frontline staff, and in some cases they are right - at some (not all) operators staff do have a 'check the last train' procedure which occasionally hasn't been followed, but in many cases, especially in mornings where stations are left locked up, the fault lies entirely with both finance & ops directors who imposed cuts on spare / GPR staff leading to no-one left to open the station when short staffed, and passengers clambering over tracks. In other cases responsibility lies with control firstly cancelling then at the last minute reinstating a last train, but not bothering / forgetting to contact stations which have to be locked up.

TPE, Stalybridge locked up in the morning - Manchester Evening News (2013)

Passengers take lives in their hands after Stalybridge station fails to open on time

People waiting for the first train from the Tameside station jumped down onto the railway and ran across tracks just minutes before the service arrived.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

In either instance, train companies should be hit with hefty penalties to ensure staff either leave the station unlocked after leaving, or adequate cover is provided in mornings to ensure a keyholder can unlock a station (or footbridge/subway/access path).

Unfortunately there are too many vandals, thugs and vagrants which means leaving unlocked during the night is not an option, other than to staff stations round the clock.

It is not possible for both of these statements to be true.

The railways do not have access to the same taxi companies as an individual may have. Taxis are usually booked using a central agency who ring companies they have contracts with

Not leave them stranded in the middle of nowhere to fend for themselves?
Surely Salisbury would have been better as it has facilities and hotels nearby.

There was very little option the railway had other than to terminate short, if there is no onward transport available by road then that is what it is. There was however 3 trains that returned to Salisbury, so passengers could have returned that way if they wanted to.

Operationally, I’m intrigued as to what the alternative should be - it appears that the line was blocked for whatever reason towards Exeter and therefore the train could go no further. Ultimately this service then had to return somewhere - it is not clear if this was ECS or an up train from Yeovil Junction and it was almost 2 months ago so RTT won’t show it.

Train companies have been struggling with getting replacement transport for months (see HGV crisis) & that includes taxis. What has been a perfectly normal “taxis will be along shortly” which used to be taken for granted as an announcement is now much harder, and will be especially so in severe weather disruption (as the article says). So yes more care should be taken & communication should have perhaps been clearer. But I’m not sure SWR would have been physically able to get the passengers to that destination that night.

In that case terminating at a staffed station would have been better, but are there any via Honiton at that time of night with a suitable crossover? Salisbury might have been better but again further away and it is hard to ascertain when exactly staff would have known the train couldn’t reach its destination if the line was blocked after departing Salisbury. Alternatively it might have been an issue with crew hours.

Ultimately it would have been nice for the conductor & driver to stay with the passengers for an amount of time but they can only go from information they have received about onward transport which may have been inaccurate (even if not wilfully so like some posters have been implying). Also was this the last train of the night? If it was, I’d have expected SWR to have stepped up their game somewhat as that should always have been protected. Crew will normally stay on for the last train as well.

At the very least, SWR did seem to reimburse all the costs. SWR certainly did have some faults here (primarily communication what a surprise) but the article has a tad of hyperbole too.

It appears there was a land slip and flooding at Chard which prevented trains continuing west. 1L80, 1L84 and 1L88 all appear to have started from Yeovil that evening.

you’re making the exact points I am trying to make, although you seem to be better at it! There’s not really much that could have been done differently operationally.

 

[Watershed]

The railways do not have access to the same taxi companies as an individual may have. Taxis are usually booked using a central agency who ring companies they have contracts with

Oh yes they do. They're perfectly capable of picking up their phone and ringing up local taxi companies. Or having the traincrew speak to taxi drivers if there are any at the station rank, and giving them an IOU or (perish the thought) some cash from the guard's float.

The fact that the railway has decided to implement taxi booking in such a cack-handed manner isn't a defence. To the contrary, it's an indictment of the pathetic bureaucracy of today's railway.

 

[stevetay3]

I think if they were fined 50 grand for every stranded passenger much of this would stop.

 

[pompeyfan]

Oh yes they do. They're perfectly capable of picking up their phone and ringing up local taxi companies. Or having the traincrew speak to taxi drivers if there are any at the station rank, and giving them an IOU or (perish the thought) some cash from the guard's float.

The fact that the railway has decided to implement taxi booking in such a cack-handed manner isn't a defence. To the contrary, it's an indictment of the pathetic bureaucracy of today's railway.

you’re in fantasy land if you think it will ever work like that.

 

[Watershed]

you’re in fantasy land if you think it will ever work like that.

Oh absolutely. But to claim it's "impossible" is, quite plainly, a lie. It's just that there is no incentive for the railway to treat passengers fairly.

 

[stevetay3]

I think if they were fined 50 grand for every stranded passenger much of this would stop.

And where did the train go when it left the passengers stranded in the middle of nowhere, if it went back to nearest depot could the pax not been taken as well.