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Guardian article: SWR leaves passengers stranded

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At the very least, I think the person(s) responsible for terminating the train in this manner is in urgent need of a training course in the basics of customer care.
SWR control staff have long needed re-training/removing/re-structuring. I have seen the Waterloo-Reading service totally collapse and a unit finally get to Reading which is booked to go empty to Farnham via Ascot. Station staff speak with crew "would you be OK to run in service to Ascot calling all stations?". "Yep". That gets put to Control, who refuse, making up blatant excuses/lies as to why it can't ("there's no-one at stations to dispatch at this time" - no, the stations are self dispatch all day).
 
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robbeech

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I am deliberately not saying which stations were involved, as I'm not sure it was entirely "by the book" and I don't want to get any staff members in trouble.
Comes to something when passengers are frightened to name stations of staff who have done a GOOD thing incase they get into trouble for NOT wiping their hands of a situation. This is the railway.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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+1.

S**t happens sometimes. Crew were in a difficult position. Always easy to sort these things out on a keyboard days later.....
Yes s**t does happen, but if you go back to the original article, it asks why the legal requirements placed on airlines don't apply to rail companies.

It's a good question. The crew may have been a difficult position but it shouldn't have been their problem, it should have been their employers. No one would expect the pilot and cabin crew of a plane to arrange onward travel after a cancelled flight so why is the blame put on the crew?

Why shouldn't TOCs have the same obigations to passengers as airlines? After all, rail travel is generally more expensive than air travel. Passengers should have the same expectations and it's the TOC not the train crew who are responsible.
 

nanstallon

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+1.

S**t happens sometimes. Crew were in a difficult position. Always easy to sort these things out on a keyboard days later.....
You can say that, but it is the callous attitude towards stranded passengers that is unsatisfactory.
 

Horizon22

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Taken them to a bigger station, paid £250 for a taxi, organised overnight accommodation which we know was available, all those things they’re supposed to do.

And if that station was in the opposite destination and passengers refused? You'd also be looking at significantly more for a taxi from the next bigger station (in all likelihood Salisbury) to destinations between Yeovil & Exeter and this doesn't resolve the overall problem of taxis being hard to organise.

Yes overnight accomodation could have been resolved, but if I remember from the rest of the thread this was not the last train of the night? Did SWR know the line wouldn't open again for the rest of the day. And again this might have been a considerable distance from their eventual destination - which isn't itself a problem if passengers are willing - but could have been the subject of a whole new bunch of complaints. There are so many variables and you position everything as black and white.

It is if it suits.

Indeed and there rarely is when this sort of thing happens on a small scale. The railways count on this and get away with it. Had there not been a story on it due to the passenger link, we would likely not have known about it, it’s very unlikely anyone will have been compensated they’ll have just been fobbed off.

After a big deal was made of the whole debacle.

Oh well leave them stranded out in the cold then if that doesn’t suit the accounts.

If it was communicated to them that this may have yielded better results for them. But was it? If they’re sat there expecting onward transport as promised, why would they get on a train going in the other direction?

You've literally just suggested above "take them to a bigger station". We don't know exactly what was communicated and whether it was in good faith at the given time that transport was to become available. The hierarchy of options was probably onward transport > overnight accomodation > return back for overnight accomodation. That's quite a drastic call though.
The railway would love that. We’d see them shutting down the entire network for a week because a catering manager on the 0823 got stung by a wasp.

Not sure if I should take your comments that seriously if you are going to resort to such extreme hyperbole.

I consider this the default expected attitude from the railway now. That way I can be pleasantly surprised when we see someone being customer focussed. It’s a shame as it’s still a majority that care but I find it’s easier to assume they all consider you a stain on the operation of the railway then you can plan your life around being monumentally let down.

25% would be a reasonable estimate. A further 25% managing delay repay after an appeal but no extra costs incurred.
I have to cite contract and consumer laws, the NRCOT, the TSA, alsorts of stuff to operators to get them to pay up and they still try to fob me off, how is a ‘regular’ passenger EVER going to get anywhere.

And we certainly must not forget that regardless of how much compensation they paid out, the day will have been a tidy earner for them in money claimed from Network Rail.

"A tidy earner"? You seem to think that some people just love disruption and don't really care about the consquences because its a Network Rail manner. Infrastructure / weather related faults are probably the ones that are most likely to lead to severe disruption and they are all technically attributable to Network Rail. So you genuinely think TOCs just don't really care regardless? I won't disagree that the customer service departments and delay teams are not very knowledgable and it takes a lot of effort to escalate.

Has anyone really blamed the train crew? That wouldn't be fair in my view.

Yes some have by saying why didn't they use the guard's float or arrange an IOU with the taxi drivers (that are magically sitting at the stand - there may have been none), or give incorrect infortmation about onward transport. As far as the crew were aware the train was terminating short, information was given to that regard, probably information about the next service and that their back working now starts from Yeovil Junction. They don't necessarily know that the issue will potentially last for hours and hours.

I will refer you to my original post, to which nobody has answered:

I am curious though and what you would have liked to have happened in the scenario provided. The situation is as follows:
  • The line to Exeter is blocked
  • There is no other suitable destination for the train to be turned around
  • Replacement road transport is proving difficult / impossible to resource at quick or even medium notice
  • The crew are booked to form another service and cannot wait at Yeovil Junction indefinitely
  • The station is unstaffed at that time of day.
I appreciate that many of these things are not the passengers fault, and I have already commented that the communication was probably sub-par but, given the circumstances, what exactly would you what SWR to do at that moment?

There are lots of people trying to keep the job running but sometimes it is just impossible. Customers absoutely are part of the question (although it is true some in control roles think it is just about moving trains) and the last thing anyone wants is people being left stranded. There is no easy answer in this scenario, but some appear to be making it out as really simple. If that was the case, then it would have been resolved relatively quickly. Personally I think there's not much more to be discussed in the thread as we'll be going around in circles. I've just tried to offer some insight into what may have happened from the railway's perspective.

Yes s**t does happen, but if you go back to the original article, it asks why the legal requirements placed on airlines don't apply to rail companies.

It's a good question. The crew may have been a difficult position but it shouldn't have been their problem, it should have been their employers. No one would expect the pilot and cabin crew of a plane to arrange onward travel after a cancelled flight so why is the blame put on the crew?

Why shouldn't TOCs have the same obigations to passengers as airlines? After all, rail travel is generally more expensive than air travel. Passengers should have the same expectations and it's the TOC not the train crew who are responsible.

Then the DfT should insist on such obligations, although right now ultimately it would be them paying. The equivalence of Delay Repay isn't exactly great for airlines.

For all intents and purposes, the crew ARE the company or, better put, are the public face of the employers. Very few have suggested it was the crew's problem. I haven't seen an unstaffed airport though have you? And in disruption passengers often end up sleeping at airports.
 

stevetay3

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And if that station was in the opposite destination and passengers refused? You'd also be looking at significantly more for a taxi from the next bigger station (in all likelihood Salisbury) to destinations between Yeovil & Exeter and this doesn't resolve the overall problem of taxis being hard to organise.

Yes overnight accomodation could have been resolved, but if I remember from the rest of the thread this was not the last train of the night? Did SWR know the line wouldn't open again for the rest of the day. And again this might have been a considerable distance from their eventual destination - which isn't itself a problem if passengers are willing - but could have been the subject of a whole new bunch of complaints. There are so many variables and you position everything as black and white.



You've literally just suggested above "take them to a bigger station". We don't know exactly what was communicated and whether it was in good faith at the given time that transport was to become available. The hierarchy of options was probably onward transport > overnight accomodation > return back for overnight accomodation. That's quite a drastic call though.


Not sure if I should take your comments that seriously if you are going to resort to such extreme hyperbole.



"A tidy earner"? You seem to think that some people just love disruption and don't really care about the consquences because its a Network Rail manner. Infrastructure / weather related faults are probably the ones that are most likely to lead to severe disruption and they are all technically attributable to Network Rail. So you genuinely think TOCs just don't really care regardless? I won't disagree that the customer service departments and delay teams are not very knowledgable and it takes a lot of effort to escalate.



Yes some have by saying why didn't they use the guard's float or arrange an IOU with the taxi drivers (that are magically sitting at the stand - there may have been none), or give incorrect infortmation about onward transport. As far as the crew were aware the train was terminating short, information was given to that regard, probably information about the next service and that their back working now starts from Yeovil Junction. They don't necessarily know that the issue will potentially last for hours and hours.

I will refer you to my original post, to which nobody has answered:



There are lots of people trying to keep the job running but sometimes it is just impossible. Customers absoutely are part of the question (although it is true some in control roles think it is just about moving trains) and the last thing anyone wants is people being left stranded. There is no easy answer in this scenario, but some appear to be making it out as really simple. If that was the case, then it would have been resolved relatively quickly. Personally I think there's not much more to be discussed in the thread as we'll be going around in circles. I've just tried to offer some insight into what may have happened from the railway's perspective.



Then the DfT should insist on such obligations, although right now ultimately it would be them paying. The equivalence of Delay Repay isn't exactly great for airlines.

For all intents and purposes, the crew ARE the company or, better put, are the public face of the employers. Very few have suggested it was the crew's problem. I haven't seen an unstaffed airport though have you? And in disruption passengers often end up sleeping at airports.

Do not the railways not need all the passengers it can get at the moment Outdated attitudes from the last century are not going to achieve that
 

Horizon22

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Do not the railways not need all the passengers it can get at the moment Outdated attitudes from the last century are not going to achieve that

What exactly in my post do you believe was "outdated"?
 

robbeech

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"A tidy earner"? You seem to think that some people just love disruption and don't really care about the consquences because its a Network Rail manner.
It’s how it comes across all to often regardless of how it is. It appears they mentioned a bus which didn’t exist, communicated no further then took off in the opposite direction. That wasn’t overwhelming amounts of care about the consequences if you ask me.
Not sure if I should take your comments that seriously if you are going to resort to such extreme hyperbole.
I think you understand the point. Give them an inch and all that. Look what happens to delay repay claims now they know there’s nobody to enforce the rules, it’s rife.
and passengers refused?
This cannot be helped, passengers need to play their part. But if nothing is communicated to them (and let’s face it communication is always noted as being poor to non existent in these cases) then what can they do? If passengers are given options and they refuse, then the railway has to draw a line somewhere.

Do not the railways not need all the passengers it can get at the moment Outdated attitudes from the last century are not going to achieve that
No. The tax payer would like all the rail passengers it can get. The railway itself isn’t quite as desperate. And with all due respect to them, the staff on the ground could do without the ones they’ve got.
 

stevetay3

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What exactly in my post do you believe was "outdated"?
I was not talking about your post specifically but everything on this thread , passengers can not stay on train, no taxis available, no buses available, train goes and leaves passengers stranded driver can no longer drive the train it goes on and on, that train must have gone some.where but so far no one on here has said.where , passengers could and should have been taken to a place of safety not left to there own devices including a 16 yo. I don’t pretend to be a railway expert but I think joe public will see it how I see it, a shambles in this case.
 

Horizon22

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It’s how it comes across all to often regardless of how it is.

This might well be your perception but many railway staff will go above and beyond to help people out of a sticky situation - this includes train crew where possible i.e they aren't booked to work another train (a delay/cancellation which would disrupt another set of passengers).

I think you understand the point. Give them an inch and all that. Look what happens to delay repay claims now they know there’s nobody to enforce the rules, it’s rife.

No sorry, I think you were just being ridiculous and facetious. Do Not Travel advice is very sensible when the railway has calculated it may not be able to honour all journeys and is taken at a senior level. Or you end up with more incidents of passengers being stranded.

This cannot be helped, passengers need to play their part. But if nothing is communicated to them (and let’s face it communication is always noted as being poor to non existent in these cases) then what can they do? If passengers are given options and they refuse, then the railway has to draw a line somewhere.

We'd both be speculating on what information was given to passengers here as we were not on board other than the brief account in the article - An announcement promised that coaches would relay travellers onwards but, when the train terminated at Yeovil Junction, no coaches could be found. Travellers would need to find taxis but none were available either. The help point being out of order was also a big issue & has hopefully been rectified as a point of urgency. Okay so their direct helpfulness is mixed, but they can at least forward the caller onto someone with more knowledge.

I was not talking about your post specifically but everything on this thread , passengers can not stay on train, no taxis available, no buses available, train goes and leaves passengers stranded driver can no longer drive the train it goes on and on, that train must have gone some.where but so far no one on here has said.where , passengers could and should have been taken to a place of safety not left to there own devices including a 16 yo. I don’t pretend to be a railway expert but I think joe public will see it how I see it, a shambles in this case.

I'd call it reality. Taxis and buses cannot be magicked up sometimes late night in bad weather (plus they are becoming harder and harder to source due to bus/coach drivers leaving to become HGV drivers). The article even says:

From 180 miles away, I rang every local taxi company listed on Google. Only one had a cab available and quoted £250 for the 50-mile-trip because of the dangerous driving conditions

That is not the fault of the railway; a magic wand cannot be waved and demand taxis arrive instantly. Endeavours clearly were taken to achieve onward contact as that was what the train crew were advised. The vast majority of crew are not going to make it up and they would have got that information from somewhere. What is more likely is that coaches have been requested to arrive ASAP and the railway has had no companies respond.

Regarding the train leaving, yes it did because leaving it there for a long point of time would have significantly inconvenienced other passengers that would relying on the return journey.

I did have a 5-point bullet further up where I asked people what they would do in the scenario which nobody has yet responded to; it was not to be difficult or snarky but I am genuinely interested in discussing what solutions there would be, and the immediate actions should have been at a very tricky time.
 
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stevetay3

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This might well be your perception but many railway staff will go above and beyond to help people out of a sticky situation - this includes train crew where possible i.e they aren't booked to work another train (a delay/cancellation which would disrupt another set of passengers).



No sorry, I think you were just being ridiculous and facetious. Do Not Travel advice is very sensible when the railway has calculated it may not be able to honour all journeys and is taken at a senior level. Or you end up with more incidents of passengers being stranded.



We'd both be speculating on what information was given to passengers here as we were not on board other than the brief account in the article - An announcement promised that coaches would relay travellers onwards but, when the train terminated at Yeovil Junction, no coaches could be found. Travellers would need to find taxis but none were available either. The help point being out of order was also a big issue & has hopefully been rectified as a point of urgency. Okay so their direct helpfulness is mixed, but they can at least forward the caller onto someone with more knowledge.



I'd call it reality. Taxis and buses cannot be magicked up sometimes (late at night and they are becoming harder and harder to source due to bus/coach drivers leaving to become HGV drivers). The article even says:



The railway cannot wave a magic wand and demand taxis arrive instantly. Endeavours clearly were taken to achieve onward contact as that was what the train crew were advised. The vast majority of crew are not going to make it up and they would have got that information from somewhere. What is more likely is that coaches have been requested to arrive ASAP and the railway has had no companies respond.

Regarding the train leaving, yes it did because leaving it there for a long point of time would have significantly inconvenienced other passengers that would relying on the return journey.

I did have a 5-point bullet further up where I asked people what they would do in the scenario which nobody has yet responded to; it was not to be difficult or snarky but I am genuinely interested in discussing what solutions there would be, and the immediate actions should have been at a very tricky time.
Was the announcement made by a certain BJ

As I have all ready said up thread a 50 grand fine for each stranded pax would make all the difference, would hurt them in the pocket

Was the announcement made by a certain BJ

As I have all ready said up thread a 50 grand fine for each stranded pax would make all the difference, would hurt them in the pocket
So where did it go
 

robbeech

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This might well be your perception but many railway staff will go above and beyond to help people out of a sticky situation - this includes train crew where possible i.e they aren't booked to work another train (a delay/cancellation which would disrupt another set of passengers).
You’d be foolish to disagree that many railway staff go above and beyond to help, but above and beyond has to be relative to something. Sometimes it feels like this ‘above and beyond’ actually just what the rules say should happen. So anyone not going ‘above and beyond’ is breaking the rules.
No sorry, I think you were just being ridiculous and facetious. Do Not Travel advice is very sensible when the railway has calculated it may not be able to honour all journeys and is taken at a senior level. Or you end up with more incidents of passengers being stranded.
When the railway issues do not travel advice, less people travel. There are some that have no choice, be it they have to be somewhere or later in the course of a day they have to get home, and there are some people (including lots here who like to cause problems to make a point) who will deliberately travel because they feel the railway has a right to convey them. These people do not help the cause
at all. But the railway issuing a do not travel notice halfway through a day as a way of wiping their hands of all responsibility towards passengers is beyond appalling.


The help point being out of order was also a big issue & has hopefully been rectified as a point of urgency. Okay so their direct helpfulness is mixed, but they can at least forward the caller onto someone with more knowledge

I must say, it’s like being hit with the “spade of coincidence” that on SO many occasions the “maintained and tested regularly regardless of cost as a safety critical piece of railway infrastructure” help points so often do not function properly or indeed at all when these situations present themselves.

The help point at Worksop hasn’t worked any time I’ve used it since around 2015. That’s not because it coincidentally keeps breaking its because it broke in or before 2015, and despite being reported by me 20 times and no doubt reported by others too it has never been fixed.

The idea that the help point at every station always works is an absolute con, so it fits in quite well.
 

Horizon22

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You’d be foolish to disagree that many railway staff go above and beyond to help, but above and beyond has to be relative to something. Sometimes it feels like this ‘above and beyond’ actually just what the rules say should happen. So anyone not going ‘above and beyond’ is breaking the rules.

Sure it's relative, but this might mean going beyond normal practices because it is the "right" thing to do. They are not superhuman and cannot summon non-existent replacement transport.

When the railway issues do not travel advice, less people travel. There are some that have no choice, be it they have to be somewhere or later in the course of a day they have to get home, and there are some people (including lots here who like to cause problems to make a point) who will deliberately travel because they feel the railway has a right to convey them. These people do not help the cause
at all. But the railway issuing a do not travel notice halfway through a day as a way of wiping their hands of all responsibility towards passengers is beyond appalling.

Some do have no choice, but they should be prepared to be significantly disrupted and that sort of notice makes it clear and black and white. The railway sometimes cannot win - people get disrupted and delayed indefinitely and people ask "Why were you still selling tickets and letting people board" and then on the other hand they said DO NOT TRAVEL and people complain that they have to get back to X,Y,Z. Anyway this is besides the point, because it is not clear if SWR actually announced this on the date in question. But I wouldn't call it appalling because what is the alternative? We are going around in circles because honestly if a) the train can't continue to its destination, b) replacement transport cannot be sourced, c) there is no nearby overnight accomodation, I struggle to see what the alternative is.

With the benefit (of a lot of hindsight) it would probably would be best to convey the passengers back to Salisbury for overnight accomodation. But would all the passengers have accepted that option?

I must say, it’s like being hit with the “spade of coincidence” that on SO many occasions the “maintained and tested regularly regardless of cost as a safety critical piece of railway infrastructure” help points so often do not function properly or indeed at all when these situations present themselves.

The help point at Worksop hasn’t worked any time I’ve used it since around 2015. That’s not because it coincidentally keeps breaking its because it broke in or before 2015, and despite being reported by me 20 times and no doubt reported by others too it has never been fixed.

The idea that the help point at every station always works is an absolute con, so it fits in quite well.

Help points really aren't "safety-critical" infrastructure which might be why the response is so poor. But I agree they (and crew) should be "the last line of defence" in terms of customer information at the fringe hours.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Yes s**t does happen, but if you go back to the original article, it asks why the legal requirements placed on airlines don't apply to rail companies.

It's a good question. The crew may have been a difficult position but it shouldn't have been their problem, it should have been their employers. No one would expect the pilot and cabin crew of a plane to arrange onward travel after a cancelled flight so why is the blame put on the crew?

Why shouldn't TOCs have the same obigations to passengers as airlines? After all, rail travel is generally more expensive than air travel. Passengers should have the same expectations and it's the TOC not the train crew who are responsible.
I would suggest the two are not comparable because:
Airlines operate in a free market and can charge whatever fares they like - allowing them to estimate the costs of compensation and build that cost into their ticket prices. Rail fares are part regulated and any attempt to increase ticket prices creates masses of bad publicity. Airlines do not seem to suffer from this bad publicity.
Airlines operate whatever services they like, changing timetables and routes frequently as they wish. TOCS operate the trains they are contracted to (open access excepted).
Airlines operate in a better environment - the open air, just with fixed terminal points. Trains run on fixed infrastructure subject to the forces of nature. You can fly around a storm.
Volume of passengers and number of services. How do the two modes compare? 600 passengers to be 'sorted' from a single plane disrupted is a headache. 600 passengers on a dozen Pendolinos per hour into Euston is a bigger one.
 

Dr Hoo

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I must say, it’s like being hit with the “spade of coincidence” that on SO many occasions the “maintained and tested regularly regardless of cost as a safety critical piece of railway infrastructure” help points so often do not function properly or indeed at all when these situations present themselves.

The help point at Worksop hasn’t worked any time I’ve used it since around 2015. That’s not because it coincidentally keeps breaking its because it broke in or before 2015, and despite being reported by me 20 times and no doubt reported by others too it has never been fixed.

The idea that the help point at every station always works is an absolute con, so it fits in quite well.
Although I don't necessarily agree with all of your post this bit did strike a chord with me. I was an unstaffed station the other week, waiting for a delayed train. While I was there a technician arrived in a van and tested the Help Point. It didn't work - connected and the call centre operator could be heard but they couldn't hear the technician. Technician then dismantled the help point, made a few adjustments, reassembled but still no joy. So, proceeded to cover it in yellow tape and then drove off.

Why on earth doesn't he travel around with new/spare help points on the van?

My train still hadn't arrived so I got back in my car and drove.


Meanwhile, back at Yeovil Junction:
Looking at the Charlwoodhouse web page linked above, AIUI the last train through to Exeter was 1L29, 1120 ex WLO, 1340 at Yeovil; the next (1L33 - 1220 ex WLO) terminated Yeovil c1440.
So the reported incident (affecting the 1820 ex WLO) was not an 'unexpected' termination: I assume it was planned from mid afternoon that trains would terminate at Yeovil (and return east), with bus from there.
Question as to whether this was the case? What was announced east of Salisbury? Was a re-route for passengers onto the GW possible or suggested? Or was reliance left to replacement buses?
And so was the issue actually down to failure of the replacement bus service?

But this doesn't reduce the severity of what ended up happening.

Perhaps the real point is should SWR (or?) have deployed some management/customer service types to Yeovil to supervise the transfer to replacement buses (and do something in their absence)? Rather than - as generally seems to be the case - just trusting/hoping that buses and trains would turn up as expected and the self-loading freight (passengers) would manage to self reload as required...
So, when passengers joined the fateful train in the Guardian article, even as far back as Waterloo, it was known that nothing would be running beyond Yeovil Junction. Does anybody even know if any buses ever actually turned up or ran or did they just 'disappear' during the day with SWR completely unaware of the fact?
 

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Yes s**t does happen, but if you go back to the original article, it asks why the legal requirements placed on airlines don't apply to rail companies.

It's a good question. The crew may have been a difficult position but it shouldn't have been their problem, it should have been their employers. No one would expect the pilot and cabin crew of a plane to arrange onward travel after a cancelled flight so why is the blame put on the crew?
Do planes normally stop at unstaffed airports in the middle of nowhere?
Why shouldn't TOCs have the same obigations to passengers as airlines?
Well firstly, they’re not subject to the same international agreements. Be careful what you wish for; in the OP’s scenario no compensation would be due whatsoever and only “care” would be provided. The obligations overall are vastly less extensive than the railway. But again, airlines don’t generally operate into rural, unstaffed shacks and almost always operate in cities where accommodation can be more easily found.
After all, rail travel is generally more expensive than air travel.
Nonsense! The average price of a plane ticket bought in the UK is far, far higher than the average train ticket.
 

etr221

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Having done a bit more looking around - at the Charlwoodhouse website (see earlier post) for train running info , and at https://www.timeanddate.com/weather/uk/yeovil/historic?month=10&year=2021 for what the weather was:
  • the weather wasn't actually that bad: 'stormy' would seem to be something of an exageration
  • apart from the blocked Yeovil J-Exeter section, trains seem to be have been running fairly well to time, just the 'normal' relatively minor delays
so not I think a 'Do Not Travel' day.

My assessment is that - with the blockage at Chard, and consequent Yeovil-Exeter closure - the plan, from mid afternoon was, as I suggested earlier, replacement bus, with trains fairly as normal east of Yeovil.

And at least to some extent, re-routing passengers via Westbury/Castle Cary/the GW line would have been an option.

But at some point mid evening the bus service ran out of buses - for whatever reason - i.e. it failed. And SWR neither managed to sort an alternative, nor maintain communication with the passengers. In other words, it abandoned its passengers in - to all intents - the middle of nowhere.
 

cjmillsnun

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And if that station was in the opposite destination and passengers refused? You'd also be looking at significantly more for a taxi from the next bigger station (in all likelihood Salisbury) to destinations between Yeovil & Exeter and this doesn't resolve the overall problem of taxis being hard to organise.

Yes overnight accomodation could have been resolved, but if I remember from the rest of the thread this was not the last train of the night? Did SWR know the line wouldn't open again for the rest of the day. And again this might have been a considerable distance from their eventual destination - which isn't itself a problem if passengers are willing - but could have been the subject of a whole new bunch of complaints. There are so many variables and you position everything as black and white.
Yes the taxi could be more expensive but there is a stronger likelihood that taxis will be on the ranks at larger stations. The point is the railway has a duty of care to its passengers, turfing them out at an unstaffed station isn't clever. Perhaps an announcement could've been made on the train that the station was unstaffed and if people prefer, they can travel back to the larger, staffed station where there was a better chance of getting onward transport or overnight accommodation.

Communication is key. The passengers were let down by the railway.

Nonsense! The average price of a plane ticket bought in the UK is far, far higher than the average train ticket.

I can buy a return ticket from Gatwick to Edinburgh for £45.98 on easyJet travelling on 12 January.

The cheapest rail fares I can get are £52 from Gatwick to Waverley and £54 from Waverley back to Gatwick. I'm pretty sure even with the tram fare, the plane is substantially cheaper. This is generally typical of domestic flights prebooked vs advanced purchase train tickets.
 

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AlterEgo

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I can buy a return ticket from Gatwick to Edinburgh for £45.98 on easyJet travelling on 12 January.

The cheapest rail fares I can get are £52 from Gatwick to Waverley and £54 from Waverley back to Gatwick. I'm pretty sure even with the tram fare, the plane is substantially cheaper. This is generally typical of domestic flights prebooked vs advanced purchase train tickets.
This doesn’t rebut what I said whatsoever. The average price of a plane ticket bought in the UK is massively, massively higher than the average train ticket. I’d put my money on it being something like a factor of 10 or 20 higher, taking all the air ticket bookings made by British people today and all the railway tickets bought by British people today.

I am finding it amusing to see people believe the passenger care provisions in the airline industry are somehow superior to those on the British railway. To repeat, if you want the international rules governing airlines’ responsibilities to apply to the trains, the author’s son would receive a round sum of zero pounds and zero pence compensation and there is no guarantee of being accommodated waaaay out in the sticks.
 

driverd

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Basically, the short of this is its outrageous customer service and absolutely unacceptable.

Dare I say it, I suspect the problem on these boards is all too often, critique comes from staff or former staff who rarely actually pay for the service they receive.

Frankly, I would suggest the train crew should have taken more decisive actions. The customer service book stops with them. I can think of atleast 2 occasions where, as a guard, I refused to leave my trainload of customers at some backwater station until suitable alternative transport had arrived or support staff arrived. Yes it upsets control, but on both occasions I received recognition and praise from the customer service team and local management for doing the right thing.

I suppose, in part, it's a question of TOC policy, as I'm sure at some TOCs such behaviour would not be met with a sensible reaction, but at the same time, anything less is simply inadequate for customers. They should, at the very least, have a responsibile representative from the company to assist, and not rely on twitter etc to get someone to notice.

Often TOCs will forget how its competition behave, and it's for this reason they really need to up their game when things go wrong. I recently had a domestic flight delayed to the following day with a budget carrier, and their response to the disruption was nothing short of exemplary. The contrast to the cancelled train service we should have been on, which was simply notified by a text and the sentiment of "now go away and sort it yourself", couldn't be more stark.

This doesn’t rebut what I said whatsoever. The average price of a plane ticket bought in the UK is massively, massively higher than the average train ticket. I’d put my money on it being something like a factor of 10 or 20 higher, taking all the air ticket bookings made by British people today and all the railway tickets bought by British people today.

I am finding it amusing to see people believe the passenger care provisions in the airline industry are somehow superior to those on the British railway. To repeat, if you want the international rules governing airlines’ responsibilities to apply to the trains, the author’s son would receive a round sum of zero pounds and zero pence compensation and there is no guarantee of being accommodated waaaay out in the sticks.

Firstly, on the subject of specifically domestic air fares, I'm sorry but I'm also going to have to disagree with you. Most long distance journeys are cheaper or competitive by air, especially when booked well in advance. Short notice bookings also are broadly competitive. To suggest they're 10x more effectively implies that for every person paying £100 to take the train Kings Cross to Edinburgh (and at £100 that would still be an apex or off peak fare) there's numerous people paying £1000 to fly, which quite evidently is nonsense. Good luck even finding such an expensive air fare in economy.

In terms of care and compensation, firstly, airlines are required to provide care, which isn't a stipulation of NRCoC, except in a handful of extreme and ridiculously rare circumstances - so already, aviation is doing better.

You would only not be entitled to compensation for the ticket in the circumstances described above if they provided an alternative flight - which coupled with the care provided, should make for a reasonably well dealt with disruption incident.

None the less, this is mostly irrelevant as good provisions are made within the conditions of carriage. My main issue is TOCs repeated failures to actually honour those conditions in a timely fashion, never mind to simply do what's right by their customers.
 
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Craig1122

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you’re in fantasy land if you think it will ever work like that.
This was exactly how it worked for a while at South West Trains. Customer service voucher which could be cashed through the ticket office either by staff or given to taxi drivers as an IOU. SWT removed them to save money.
 

TUC

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Just why are some people here determined to protect rail staff from any responsibility come what may? Worse, they defend some ontrain staff by saying 'it wasn't their job to see that the passengers were OK', without taking any account of what would be expected as decent, reasonable human behaviour, regardless of what was technically one's job or not.
 

The exile

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Someone, somewhere has made a decision to do something that departed from the normal / advertised situation. That person also had the moral responsibility for ensuring that all direct consequences are dealt with in a timely matter. It appears that was not done….
 

stuu

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Firstly, on the subject of specifically domestic air fares, I'm sorry but I'm also going to have to disagree with you. Most long distance journeys are cheaper or competitive by air, especially when booked well in advance. Short notice bookings also are broadly competitive. To suggest they're 10x more effectively implies that for every person paying £100 to take the train Kings Cross to Edinburgh (and at £100 that would still be an apex or off peak fare) there's numerous people paying £1000 to fly, which quite evidently is nonsense. Good luck even finding such an expensive air fare in economy.
The enormous majority of rail tickets are for local or regional journeys though, and by numbers of passengers are into and around London. The average price paid is probably less than £20
 

iainbhx

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Firstly, on the subject of specifically domestic air fares, I'm sorry but I'm also going to have to disagree with you. Most long distance journeys are cheaper or competitive by air, especially when booked well in advance. Short notice bookings also are broadly competitive. To suggest they're 10x more effectively implies that for every person paying £100 to take the train Kings Cross to Edinburgh (and at £100 that would still be an apex or off peak fare) there's numerous people paying £1000 to fly, which quite evidently is nonsense. Good luck even finding such an expensive air fare in economy.

There are some exceptionally high, extremely flexible (as in they are transferable between airlines) airfares out there, they are not sold often, but are basically walk-ups on the day for travellers who need flexiblity and yes they cost a fortune. I've had to buy one once to get back from Madrid when my father had a stroke, it wasn't quite 1,000 one way, but it was close to that. Those fares approach and exceed four figures even for relatively short flights. You'd be amazed how much full fare tickets in economy on airlines if you need to go NOW.

However, in general, I would agree that on some key competitive domestic routes, air will generally be cheaper than the train.
 

pompeyfan

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Just to clarify a few things;

SWR did issue a do not travel on the day in question

It would appear 1L57 1820 Waterloo - Exeter (1827 off Clapham) terminated 7 late at YVJ to form 1L80 2025 Exeter - Waterloo starting YVJ 2127.

finally I’m led to believe that SWR are one of the only TOCs to answer help point calls directly, however the help point call is taken by a Route information controller who is also responsible for updating internal and external systems to reflect train service alterations. There was been a staff shortage recently for this role, partly due to DfT meddling and partly due to covid. Apparently it’s not uncommon for only 1 of the 3 desks to be covered.
 

seagull

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Just why are some people here determined to protect rail staff from any responsibility come what may? Worse, they defend some ontrain staff by saying 'it wasn't their job to see that the passengers were OK', without taking any account of what would be expected as decent, reasonable human behaviour, regardless of what was technically one's job or not.

Just why are some people here determined to hold rail staff responsible for everything, come what may? Worse, they attack some on train staff by saying 'it was their job to see that the passengers were OK', without taking into account any safety or other issues that may just have prevented them doing so in a timely manner.


FWIW, I believe there is a sensible middle road to follow, extremes are never a good thing.
 

pompeyfan

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Just why are some people here determined to protect rail staff from any responsibility come what may? Worse, they defend some ontrain staff by saying 'it wasn't their job to see that the passengers were OK', without taking any account of what would be expected as decent, reasonable human behaviour, regardless of what was technically one's job or not.

It is correct to say the railway did fail its passengers, however to blame the driver and guard is absurd. They had nothing to offer their passengers. There reportedly was no taxis on the rank to issue an IOU to (if they even existed, which they don’t, station staff can issue a docket, however guards only have vouchers which effectively rubber stamp a refund request when accompanied with a receipt and the original ticket)
 

Bletchleyite

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It is correct to say the railway did fail its passengers, however to blame the driver and guard is absurd. They had nothing to offer their passengers. There reportedly was no taxis on the rank to issue an IOU to (if they even existed, which they don’t, station staff can issue a docket, however guards only have vouchers which effectively rubber stamp a refund request when accompanied with a receipt and the original ticket)

So, this is the sort of thing the railway can look to resolve. Guards should, therefore, going forward, be able to issue Hackney carriage dockets. They shouldn't be issued at the drop of a hat, so there should need to be Control authority to do so, but they should have them in their bag just in case.

It sounds like it might not have helped here, but this is the sort of "learn from experience" thing that the railway isn't often very good at. It does it very, very well with accidents (by way of the RAIB), but it should do that kind of "root cause analysis" of customer service matters, too. Any business that truly cares about customer service does.
 

pompeyfan

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So, this is the sort of thing the railway can look to resolve. Guards should, therefore, going forward, be able to issue Hackney carriage dockets. They shouldn't be issued at the drop of a hat, so there should need to be Control authority to do so, but they should have them in their bag just in case.

It sounds like it might not have helped here, but this is the sort of "learn from experience" thing that the railway isn't often very good at. It does it very, very well with accidents (by way of the RAIB), but it should do that kind of "root cause analysis" of customer service matters, too. Any business that truly cares about customer service does.

I’d go further and say allow the guard to issue the docket without controls authority (during disruption control tends to be outbound only), and on the carbon copy of the docket include a brief summary of the reason why.
As you say in this situation it wouldn’t have helped anyway due to lack of taxis, and it’s also worth keeping in mind its potentially open to exploitation from any scrupulous taxi drivers, and that the taxi driver may well refuse a docket job as getting the money can take a while.
 
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