Guards on Greater Anglia trains these days.

[stadler]

Does anyone know how Guards work on Greater Anglia trains these days. So much has changed since the withdrawal of the old stock and the introduction of the 720/745/755 and i have lost track of how it works these days.

From what i understand the 720/745/755 still have a guaranteed Guard onboard but they do not open or close doors or despatch the train. However from what i have heard they are still able to despatch the train if necessary such as if the DOO cameras are broken. So how do they maintain competency to despatch? Do they have to despatch a certain amount of trains per month or per year still? If so how is it decided when they will despatch? I presume otherwise they could go years without despatching presuming that no train they work has any issues?

Where are the Guard depots currently and what routes are required to have Guards onboard still? I presume it is just all 745 755 North of Cambridge and North Of Ipswich must have a Guard and all 720 East of Colchester and East of Manningtree must have a Guard with everything else DOO now? Or have i got it wrong? I think that the Braintree and Southminster branches used to require Guards on certain longer trains but i presume that has ended with the 720 being introduced?

Also i was having an interesting conversation with a Guard a few years ago before the 720/745/755 was introduced and he was saying that they have both "Conductors" and "Senior Conductors" who are the same role but just a different title. I think they were the only TOC to use both titles. Is this still the case?

Also he was saying that different Guards get different amounts of commission for ticket sales with some on 4% and some on 5% and some on 6% so it seems that a lot of Guards are on different conditions. I forget which Guards got which percentage. Is this also still the case?

Many thanks for the information.

 

[asdirective]

From what i understand the 720/745/755 still have a guaranteed Guard onboard but they do not open or close doors or despatch the train. However from what i have heard they are still able to despatch the train if necessary such as if the DOO cameras are broken. So how do they maintain competency to despatch? Do they have to despatch a certain amount of trains per month or per year still? If so how is it decided when they will despatch? I presume otherwise they could go years without despatching presuming that no train they work has any issues?

There are a handful of set diagrams each week where the train doors are closed using Conductor dispatch, allowing them to retain their competency. Drivers still open the doors on these services. It is the Conductors responsibility to maintain their competency, but I'm not sure how often they are required to do so to remain competent

Where are the Guard depots currently and what routes are required to have Guards onboard still? I presume it is just all 745 755 North of Cambridge and North Of Ipswich must have a Guard and all 720 East of Colchester and East of Manningtree must have a Guard with everything else DOO now? Or have i got it wrong? I think that the Braintree and Southminster branches used to require Guards on certain longer trains but i presume that has ended with the 720 being introduced?

Pretty much as you state, but also I think the Sudbury branch must have a guard. Trains can also run DOO Ely to Cambridge. Not sure whether the Braintree or Southminster branches still retain a Guard.

Also i was having an interesting conversation with a Guard a few years ago before the 720/745/755 was introduced and he was saying that they have both "Conductors" and "Senior Conductors" who are the same role but just a different title. I think they were the only TOC to use both titles. Is this still the case?

Also he was saying that different Guards get different amounts of commission for ticket sales with some on 4% and some on 5% and some on 6% so it seems that a lot of Guards are on different conditions. I forget which Guards got which percentage. Is this also still the case?

Many thanks for the information.

T&Cs are complicated as their is no harmonisation, and they are based on the former Anglia and Great Eastern franchises. So different salaries and commission rates. Anglia guards also had a restructure at one point where existing guards retained their 5%, but new starters from there on only got 4%.

The Senior title was historically given to those who used to work the mk3s/mk2s. Given the slam door stock as it was deemed a higher grade. Nothing has changed now, and those who work 745s still retain the Senior title, even though 745s and 755s are effectively worked the same way. Seniors are based at Norwich (Intercity link) and Liverpool St.

The Norwich (local link) and Ipswich depots also have work on the intercity services, but carry the Conductor grade title. They have a small amount of booked work to help cover sickness and holidays. Whenever they work an Intercity service they get "high grade duties" which is the hourly difference in salary between the two grades. The onky other Anglia depot is the Norwich (Cambridge link), which has no Intercity work.

The GE depots are at Colchester and Clacton. I'm not sure if they retain their competency and if so what the procedure is for 720s.

 

[Teddyward]

Southminsters still have conductors for revenue and PRM duties. Driving is all DOO.
Braintrees do not.

 

[Horizon22]

Tagging someone who may know more (@dk1)

 

[dk1]

Tagging someone who may know more (@dk1)

Thank you. Yes pretty much as stated above. I personally don’t know much about Colchester/Clacton depots as we are much the same as we were in 2004 as separate Anglia/Great Eastern within the organisation and do not interact.

Almost all 745/755 operation on regional/intercity trains are booked with a guard even right through to Stansted Airport from Ely on the hourly Norwich services where DOO is passed. All routes North of Ipswich & Ely must have a guard onboard at all times. The 10:00 Norwich-Liverpool St & 14:30 return are operated daily in degraded mode where the guard closes doors (they cannot open them) to ensure their & platform staff familiarity. This also happens on this and other routes regularly for training purposes and as said if a camera is not working/bleached out by sunlight. Commission at Anglia Railways varies from 2% first year or so for new entrants up to 4% but ex-BR guards retain 5%.

 

[306024]

On the ex Great Eastern bit at Colchester and Clacton depots, conductors are diagrammed between Marks Tey and Sudbury, Colchester to Clacton and Walton, and Manningtree to Harwich. Colchester to Colchester Town is DOO however.

All the previous operational requirements for Conductors on 8 / 12 car trains Colchester to Colchester Town, and 12 car trains between Colchester and Ipswich, Witham and Braintree, Wickford and Southminster, were removed with the class 720 introduction.

 

[Mojo]

On the same lines, I wonder how long is left for platform staff at places like Witham, Shenfield, etc. These used to dispatch the 321s with CD / RA indicators but I notice the newer trains are all self-dispatch with the platform staff merely blowing a whistle.

 

[dk1]

On the same lines, I wonder how long is left for platform staff at places like Witham, Shenfield, etc. These used to dispatch the 321s with CD / RA indicators but I notice the newer trains are all self-dispatch with the platform staff merely blowing a whistle.

They do other duties and are still there to assist dispatch. As far as I know there are no plans to change anything.

 

[Mojo]

They do other duties and are still there to assist dispatch. As far as I know there are no plans to change anything.

That’s good to hear. It’s always valuable having staff at stations.

 

[dk1]

That’s good to hear. It’s always valuable having staff at stations.

At Norwich platform staff even have to assist & be on the platform for class 745 empty moves. At all stations they are also required to dispatch any train with door camera issues.

 

[Horizon22]

On the same lines, I wonder how long is left for platform staff at places like Witham, Shenfield, etc. These used to dispatch the 321s with CD / RA indicators but I notice the newer trains are all self-dispatch with the platform staff merely blowing a whistle.

Shenfield also have ECS duties for the Elizabeth line & other ad-hoc dispatch jobs.

 

[stadler]

Thank you all for the detailed information. That is very interesting to hear how things work these days. It is quite a unique operation having Guards who do not operate doors or despatch but are still able to if necessary. I think the SWR 701s are the only other ones to operate this way.

Are the 720s able to work to Norwich and if so i presume they require a Guard between Ipswich and Norwich too? I remember the 321s used to regularly work to Norwich but i am not sure if this has continued with the 720s now?

Also with the Southminster branch mentioned are the Conductors that have been kept for revenue still actual Conductors like at the other depots? Or have they lost their safety critical role and are basically just Ticket Inspectors these days?

I am amazed that there is still no harmonisation in T&Cs two decades after the TOCs merged. I used to work as a Guard in BR days but left the railways before privitisation and everything was a lot simpler then. At least in my area we only had one set of T&Cs that all Guards were on. I wonder if Greater Anglia will ever harmonise the T&Cs across depots.

 

[Horizon22]

Thank you all for the detailed information. That is very interesting to hear how things work these days. It is quite a unique operation having Guards who do not operate doors or despatch but are still able to if necessary. I think the SWR 701s are the only other ones to operate this way.

Southeastern High Speed Train Managers do the same I believe.

 

[dk1]

There is no harmonisation with drivers either. It’s been tried twice and rejected both times once in 2005 & again a couple of years ago. No staff in sane mind are going to give anything away without being handsomely rewarded. This is why we operate as three separate companies terms & conditions wise.

Yes, any 720 units operating north of Ipswich would have to have a guard onboard. Only Liverpool Street (Anglia Railways) drivers sign both them and the route north of Stowmarket however. Norwich drivers started to train on them just before the pandemic but this was later abandoned & why 755s are now used on certain intercity services.

 

[stadler]

Southeastern High Speed Train Managers do the same I believe.

Southeastern OBMs are unable to despatch or operate doors. So it is not quite the same. They are safety critical and receive most of the same training as Guards and are guaranteed onboard all trains. But they have no ability or training to despatch or operate doors even if the cameras were to fail.

There is no harmonisation with drivers either. It’s been tried twice and rejected both times once in 2005 & again a couple of years ago. No staff in sane mind are going to give anything away without being handsomely rewarded. This is why we operate as three separate companies terms & conditions wise.

Yes, any 720 units operating north of Ipswich would have to have a guard onboard. Only Liverpool Street (Anglia Railways) drivers sign both them and the route north of Stowmarket however. Norwich drivers started to train on them just before the pandemic but this was later abandoned & why 755s are now used on certain intercity services.

Am i correct in presuming the third one is seperate conditions for ex WAGN drivers too? So you have ex AR T&Cs and ex FGE T&Cs and ex WAGN T&Cs?

I think GWR is somewhat similar in having ex Great Western Trains T&Cs and ex Thames Trains T&Cs and ex Wessex Trains T&Cs. So they have three as well.

I can certainly understand no Drivers or Guards are going to want to give away anything. I guess it makes it easier just keeping it as it is.

When a 720 goes to Norwich which Guards currently sign them? Are they signed by the Norwich or London Liverpool Street based Senior Conductors or by the Norwich or Ipswich conductors? Or do they have to get a Guard from Clacton or Colchester to work them?

 

[dk1]

Am i correct in presuming the third one is seperate conditions for ex WAGN drivers too? So you have ex AR T&Cs and ex FGE T&Cs and ex WAGN T&Cs?

I think GWR is somewhat similar in having ex Great Western Trains T&Cs and ex Thames Trains T&Cs and ex Wessex Trains T&Cs. So they have three as well.

I can certainly understand no Drivers or Guards are going to want to give away anything. I guess it makes it easier just keeping it as it is.

When a 720 goes to Norwich which Guards currently sign them? Are they signed by the Norwich or London Liverpool Street based Senior Conductors or by the Norwich or Ipswich conductors? Or do they have to get a Guard from Clacton or Colchester to work them?

Yes ex-WAGN conditions apply to West Anglia the third collection of GA drivers.

Class 720s do not work Norwich services. They do not operate beyond Ipswich.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Southeastern OBMs are unable to despatch or operate doors. So it is not quite the same. They are safety critical and receive most of the same training as Guards and are guaranteed onboard all trains. But they have no ability or training to despatch or operate doors even if the cameras were to fail.


Am i correct in presuming the third one is seperate conditions for ex WAGN drivers too? So you have ex AR T&Cs and ex FGE T&Cs and ex WAGN T&Cs?

I think GWR is somewhat similar in having ex Great Western Trains T&Cs and ex Thames Trains T&Cs and ex Wessex Trains T&Cs. So they have three as well.

I can certainly understand no Drivers or Guards are going to want to give away anything. I guess it makes it easier just keeping it as it is.

When a 720 goes to Norwich which Guards currently sign them? Are they signed by the Norwich or London Liverpool Street based Senior Conductors or by the Norwich or Ipswich conductors? Or do they have to get a Guard from Clacton or Colchester to work them?

GWR got part-harmonised a few years ago.

There's now only GWR Ts&Cs and HSS (ex GWT) Ts&Cs. Any and all new drivers and any driver who transfers depot is put on GWR. HSS will die out eventually. They were omitted from harmonisation talks as they knew West and LTV would vote it in but HSS would not, as they didn't agree with the changes to Ts and Cs and didn't believe that West or Ltv drivers should have pay parity.

 

[Horizon22]

GWR got part-harmonised a few years ago.

There's now only GWR Ts&Cs and HSS (ex GWT) Ts&Cs. Any and all new drivers and any driver who transfers depot is put on GWR. HSS will die out eventually. They were omitted from harmonisation talks as they knew West and LTV would vote it in but HSS would not, as they didn't agree with the changes to Ts and Cs and didn't believe that West or Ltv drivers should have pay parity.

Yes GWR is effectively harmonisation "by default" by letting/waiting for those on older HSS contracts to retire.

 

[MrPIC]

Surely the days must be numbered for guards on GA?

 

[dk1]

Surely the days must be numbered for guards on GA?

Definitely not. No regional routes are DOO.

Nor is the mainline North of Ipswich.

Colchester to Clacton/Walton & Manningtree to Harwich must also have a guard.

 

[LowLevel]

Surely the days must be numbered for guards on GA?

I'd doubt it. On the routes where they were effectively mobile train dispatchers on otherwise DOO 12 car peak time trains they're already gone.

On the remaining routes they provide pretty much the only staff available away from the terminals on busy trains - there's no sign of any intent to dispense with them.