GWR Class 800

[starrymarkb]

I noticed the windowless seats on the plans. They are also narrower then standard seats as that's where the exterior door pocket is (Hitachi don't do plug doors). Personally I'd have gone for a 158 style rack on both sides there.

 

[87019Chris]

Notice how they have the holders for paper reservations just in case the computer reservation system messes up, total confidence in there design there! at least if it does go wrong they can still cope though. I dislike the fact that there are seats without a view (even in 1st class, I'd be fairly ****ed off if I bought a 1st ticket and ended up with that seat!), and luggage racks that appear to have windows behind them? (not sure as I cant clearly see on any of the images) Is this just another case of "cram the seats in so that we don't have to make another coach?" And was the requirements of seats per coach set by the Government or have Hitachi just put all this together?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I rather like the look of the mock-up, though it does look rather bland- I guess this is understandable as it's simply been put together to give a 'taster' of what's to come. I wouldn't worry too much about seat/window alignment at this point, as presumably one of the purposes of the mock-up is to see how potential passengers react. It's also easy to forget that even Mk3s never had perfect seat/window alignment, and I can't think of any stock that did, other than the compartment areas of SR slammers.
I'm slightly surprised at the lack of plug doors as presumably this will increase drag, and noise in the vestibule areas?

 

[sprinterguy]

It's also easy to forget that even Mk3s never had perfect seat/window alignment

They never had seats that had no window view at all though, and visibility across a carriage in a mark 3 was better due to the lower-backed IC70 seating. In my opinion, this interior mock-up has set some concerning precedents for the new trains. Those thin, upright seats look more akin to level of comfort offered by those that were originally fitted to the mark 4s, too, which aren't widely praised.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They never had seats that had no window view at all though, and visibility across a carriage in a mark 3 was better due to the lower-backed IC70 seating. In my opinion, this interior mock-up has set some concerning precedents for the new trains. Those thin, upright seats look more akin to level of comfort offered by those that were originally fitted to the mark 4s, too, which aren't widely praised.

Though low(er)-backed seats such as IC70s are no longer able to be fitted to new stock, as they don't meet the current standards for support offered in the event of a derailment- so it's moot. Modern stock also tends to have wider pillars between windows, and I assume this is also (at least in part) to increase the structural strength of the vehicle.
I'm all for the passenger environment being as good as it can possibly be, but there's a need to compromise between quality/efficiency/safety.
I agree though that it would be disappointing to have to spend 2 hours staring at a wall... Perhaps a new 'budget' tier of fares could be introduced solely for the 3-4 seats in each carriage that have no window view?

 

[87019Chris]

Perhaps a new 'budget' tier of fares could be introduced solely for the 3-4 seats in each carriage that have no window view?

But whats to stop them just getting up and sitting in a different seat and then there ticket is not valid? bit of a dodgy one and also how to enforce it, e.g. "I wasn't sitting there I was just checking the window"
"But sir you are not entitled to a window" and so on
Going back to topic, and not wanting to start an argument though I believe maybe instead of having full width head rests, how about having narrower head rest's to improve visibility across the train, and also I do believe that the seats were better lined up on the MK3's than on any train currently running on the national network (however do correct me if I'm wrong) they weren't lined up 100% of the time but 99% of the time they are fantastic with the windows.
Interestingly enough I think that when people look at a seat you make a judgement on how comfortable it is depending how thick it is as it seems more padded if it is thicker? But nowadays this isn't always true, I do hope they are comfy but only time will tell and just more thought into the interior would be better as now trains are judged by the government and others by how many people can fit in them not by how good they are to travel on. I have done 6 hour trips on HST's and walked off feeling fresh and been comfortable and felt as though I had plenty of room for the whole journey, I don't think I would have been the same if a Voyager had of turned up?

 

[Yew]

Matter of opinion Yes the MK3's were good but frankly they are past there use by date now, the MK4's I never felt they were that great, the original seats as has been commented were terrible, the ride I don't think is that great, and they have the tilt profile they don't use.

I actually think IEP will be a good train, I remember my first trip on an HST and thought they were an amazing train but that was 37 years ago and things need to move on.

Its the SIGG bogies, if they where on the T4 BREL bogies the suspension was designed for, rather than their BT41's they would ride fine. That being said, I do think they're still a reasonable ride quality, but maybe not up to the standard of the 156's they where based off.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

hose thin, upright seats look more akin to level of comfort offered by those that were originally fitted to the mark 4s, too, which aren't widely praised.

Indeed, I get the feeling they will be distinctly hard, like meridian seats, focused on 'posture' rather than any actual semblance of comfort. That being said it does look quite nice inside. assuming the idiotic juxtaposition of luggage racks and airline seats is remedied..

 

[Chris125]

Awaiting the comments about seat and window alignment.

Apparently the window/seat alignment will be better on the actual trainsets than is possible in the mock-up, where different features of the train are being displayed together slightly out of context.

Chris

 

[jon0844]

Apparently the window/seat alignment will be better on the actual trainsets than is possible in the mock-up, where different features of the train are being displayed together slightly out of context.

That makes sense. Rather like the 700 set up, showing all the key features in just a few carriages.

 

[upnorth71]

(Hitachi don't do plug doors)

They certainly do do plug doors, if the customer wants it:

TRA (Taiwan) TEMU 1000 express emu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSUXQt_D2lo

Korail (Korea) Nuriro express emu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBXUUYPy1bA

Both trainsets are Hitachi built.
*note the Nuriro also is a solution for low and high level platforms, admittedly irrelevant for the UK.

 

[LexyBoy]

bullet-style carriages

Sounds cramped.

 

[D6975]

It's also easy to forget that even Mk3s never had perfect seat/window alignment, and I can't think of any stock that did, other than the compartment areas of SR slammers.

All Mk1 and Mk2 loco hauled stock as built had perfect window/seat alignment, and there was an awful lot of it.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I agree, it is more the ride quality than the seats that I have a problem with; even a Desiro seems more stable. The Mk4s also feel early as cramped as the Pendolinos.

which given the mk4 has a body profile suitable for re-bogieing to tilt ....

 

[59CosG95]

They certainly do do plug doors, if the customer wants it:

TRA (Taiwan) TEMU 1000 express emu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSUXQt_D2lo

Korail (Korea) Nuriro express emu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBXUUYPy1bA

Both trainsets are Hitachi built.
*note the Nuriro also is a solution for low and high level platforms, admittedly irrelevant for the UK.

Wonder why the 800 isn't getting plug doors then? Maybe they're trying to increase the speed of exit of the passengers?

 

[Class172]

Those thin, upright seats look more akin to level of comfort offered by those that were originally fitted to the mark 4s, too, which aren't widely praised.

They remind me somewhat of an upmarket version of the seats I am used to on class 172s...

 

[krus_aragon]

Notice how they have the holders for paper reservations just in case the computer reservation system messes up, total confidence in there design there! at least if it does go wrong they can still cope though.

That was part of the government specification:

TS638 There must be a holder suitable for displaying printed reservation tickets adjacent to each seat as a back-up to the automatic system.

 

[gordonthemoron]

however, would it ever be used?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

however, would it ever be used?

We'd hope not, but it's better to have a back-up... Especially one so low-tech and simple to provide- I can't imagine it would add a huge amount to the total cost of the units.

 

[fgwrich]

We'd hope not, but it's better to have a back-up... Especially one so low-tech and simple to provide- I can't imagine it would add a huge amount to the total cost of the units.

As frequently shown by Cross Country's HST Rakes whereupon the electronic reservation system either rarely works or seems to be hardly ever used, and ticket type reservations are used instead. Which hopefully will be more reliable than the IC70 ones as I found out when my reservation ticket dropped into the back as I sat down!

 

[Class172]

Wonder why the 800 isn't getting plug doors then? Maybe they're trying to increase the speed of exit of the passengers?

No plug doors...? I thought with a train of its type, it would surely have them. In my opinion, express trains look much better with them, and space inside the carriage is not used whenever the doors are open.

 

[ainsworth74]

I really do think people need to at least skim through the specification for these trains. Reading it would indicate that they're doing just about everything practical to ensure they aren't another Voyager. Seriously read it there's lots that can be skipped and I read the interesting parts in about half an hour.

 

[asylumxl]

I really do think people need to at least skim through the specification for these trains. Reading it would indicate that they're doing just about everything practical to ensure they aren't another Voyager. Seriously read it there's lots that can be skipped and I read the interesting parts in about half an hour.

I said this several pages ago, but it seems it didn't make much impact :P.

 

[samuelmorris]

luggage racks that appear to have windows behind them?

This is true of the Mk4s as well though?

Having been on 395s a couple of times, I have to say I didn't find the ride quality bad (but then I wouldn't on HS1, would I?) but I did notice the air turbulence noise. For the 12% increase in speed, the noise in the cabin was considerably greater than on either a Mk3 or Mk4. Not unpleasant, just noisier. Unsure if that will make it through the 800s, but they do look remarkably similar in all the areas that count. I too am a little bit baffled by the lack of plug doors. High speed or otherwise you can argue that the 395s are fulfilling a fairly commuter-like role with a fairly high service frequency, all-standard class and short vehicle length. The 800s are none of that, so why stick with sliders?

 

[jw]

No plug doors...? I thought with a train of its type, it would surely have them. In my opinion, express trains look much better with them, and space inside the carriage is not used whenever the doors are open.

I thought the main justification for sliding doors was that they were significantly more reliable than plug doors?

I am sympathetic to the aesthetic argument but I would imagine that reliability and delay minutes feature heavily in the contract.

 

[asylumxl]

I thought the main justification for sliding doors was that they were significantly more reliable than plug doors?





I am sympathetic to the aesthetic argument but I would imagine that reliability and delay minutes feature heavily in the contract.

I'd imagine they'd be like the doors used on the 395 and have a seal the doors are pressed against to prevent pressure changes.

 

[fgwrich]

I really do think people need to at least skim through the specification for these trains. Reading it would indicate that they're doing just about everything practical to ensure they aren't another Voyager. Seriously read it there's lots that can be skipped and I read the interesting parts in about half an hour.

Sorry, but I've reread the relevant bits and I'm still not that impressed with it. Either because I need to see the mock up in the flesh or because I'm just too used to the HSTs. While some bits do sound like their trying their best to make sure it doesn't turn out as an expensive Japanese Voyager Mk2, there are still certain elements that I'm not impressed with, like cycle or luggage storage. Yes they've taken into account space for large bags, but not the larger suitcases that many people seem to take with them these days, or measuring up the space taken of a Road Bike for the cycle space, but not particularly taking into account for other types of bikes etc - these are just two elements I've singled out, but I'm afraid it's got a lot to live up to in replacing the HST with something as credible and whilst not being a Voyager, also not being the train specified by civil servants either.

 

[asylumxl]

Sorry, but I've reread the relevant bits and I'm still not that impressed with it. Either because I need to see the mock up in the flesh or because I'm just too used to the HSTs. While some bits do sound like their trying their best to make sure it doesn't turn out as an expensive Japanese Voyager Mk2, there are still certain elements that I'm not impressed with, like cycle or luggage storage. Yes they've taken into account space for large bags, but not the larger suitcases that many people seem to take with them these days, or measuring up the space taken of a Road Bike for the cycle space, but not particularly taking into account for other types of bikes etc - these are just two elements I've singled out, but I'm afraid it's got a lot to live up to in replacing the HST with something as credible and whilst not being a Voyager, also not being the train specified by civil servants either.

I'm inclined to say that's as they're more concerned with the number of seats available. The majority of passengers won't have bikes nor oversized luggage.



In all honesty, if it's anything but an HST will you be happy?

 

[jon0844]

We'd hope not, but it's better to have a back-up... Especially one so low-tech and simple to provide- I can't imagine it would add a huge amount to the total cost of the units.

Indeed. I am sure the maker of the seats has a ticket holder as a pretty cheap option, so it won't break the bank. Retro fitting something like that would cost a whole lot more.

The majority of passengers won't have bikes nor oversized luggage.

It would probably make sense to ban such large bags on trains, rather than find ways to accommodate them, as it's quite amazing the sizes now available and the problems people have moving them around.

It's as if some people are worried about their house being burgled and decide to take everything with them instead.

These massive bags cause all sorts of problems inside and outside trains, on steps, escalators etc - so anything to discourage their usage (such as not being able to take it on a train, or being charged extra) would be good.

I appreciate that many people either won't have seen them, or won't think it's such a big deal - but if you just pop along to King's Cross/St Pancras you'll very quickly see for yourself.

Bikes on the other hand; we should be making more room for these to be stored, as well as areas for folded buggies.

 

[KX03HZY]

Where is the mock up of this?

 

[Mikey C]

I thought the main justification for sliding doors was that they were significantly more reliable than plug doors?

I am sympathetic to the aesthetic argument but I would imagine that reliability and delay minutes feature heavily in the contract.

Door reliability is far less important on an inter city service with few stops, and long waits at stations than on a commuter service.

I would have thought they'd be far worse aerodynamically than plug doors, you don't see cars or planes without flush fitting doors!