GWR Class 800

[43096]

It is - but let’s be sure we’re not crossing wires here, a TIN - Trust Incident Number - is given to any delay of over 3 minutes; not just rolling stock tech issues.

MTIN - Miles per Technical INcident (sic) is the number of miles operated by a rolling stock fleet divided by the number of “casualty” technical events - technical issues or similar that cause 5 minutes delay or a cancellation. It might even be more than 5 mins but it definitely isn’t less.

MTIN is based on 3mins delay or causing cancellation. As you say, TRUST generates a TIN after a 3min delay - these are then allocated to root causes (in very simplistic terms, infrastructure, fleet, operations etc etc). MTIN is therefore the total mileage run for a fleet divided by the number of TINs assigned to fleet technical issues.

Reliability was measured as MP5MD (miles per 5 minute delay) until a few years ago, when it was switched to using the TIN data (i.e. 3 minutes).

 

[Master29]

Why are failure rates of a 40 year old train even compared with a brand new one. Imagine if it were a care. Not a relevant argument in terms of "what is the better train" but in terms of service, that`s another matter.

 

[43096]

I didn't realise you spoke for the industry?

MTIN is a totally useless metric. As the railways are in a state of near continuous crisis and catastrophe, disagreement is probably a complement.

As mentioned already they would be much better looking at the reliability of their infrastructure as in terms of total delay minutes caused it is many times more.

If pacers can result in some of the highest PPM scores on the 5min threshold, there is a suggestion people perhaps get a bit too excited about lots of very low impact rolling stock delays.

It is not "totally useless" - if it was it would not be being used.

Measuring both the MTIN and the primary delay per incident (DPI). Having a low MTIN and DPI suggest that a fleet has a lot of niggling faults - which might be an indicator of poor attention to detail on depot, for example. And to make the point about delays: even a 5 minute delay at, say, Manchester Picc platforms 13/14, Vauxhall or Farringdon in the middle of the peak can have a huge performance impact given the volume of trains running.

 

[JN114]

Minutes of technical delay per 1,000 miles operated? Granted miles have their own weaknesses but far better than MTIN.

But that would be a poor measure of reliability. Reliability is a measure of how often does something fail? Not how much disruption a fleet can cause.

Take a Southern 377 - one of the most reliable fleets in the country. One fails at East Croydon, bringing in 1000s of delay minutes - but that’s their only failure in 1000s of Miles. Then take the GW HST fleet - one the the least reliable fleets in the country - in that same mileage period they might have 100 technical incidents, but each only causes a handful minutes delay because they’re minor issues.

By your metric the 377 would be more unreliable; but that wouldn’t be indicative of reality passenger face would it?

 

[JN114]

Reliability was measured as MP5MD (miles per 5 minute delay) until a few years ago, when it was switched to using the TIN data (i.e. 3 minutes).

Interesting, I’ve recently passed out in a new control job and this was essentially how it was explained to me. I’ll take this back to my peer trainer and ask if things have changed in the past couple of years as it’s very plausible I’ve been taught the old way of doing things.

 

[CMRail]

They need to plan to have adequate contingency. That means winding down the planned requirement. Then you aren't a hostage to problems with a single unit at a single depot which is where it seems to be going wrong now.

I don’t think anyone has mentioned it ever in history, but the HSTs are going off lease causing this stock shortage. The quote suggested that you expect head codes to be avoid it when it is impossible. You sound like someone who thinks trains can just run and signals crew and allocations don’t exist.

 

[Clarence Yard]

They need to plan to have adequate contingency. That means winding down the planned requirement. Then you aren't a hostage to problems with a single unit at a single depot which is where it seems to be going wrong now.

The planned requirement on the GWR 800 sets has been contracted by the DfT. It’s not an option for GWR to “wind it down”.

GWR have to pay, in the case of the 5 car units, for 32 diagrams a day, seven days a week at a cost of five figures per unit, per day. Even having two of these units at the moment on train crew diagrams is hideously expensive.

If one of those 32 units are not available for a whole day and that non-availability is the fault of Hitachi, GWR only get half that daily payment back, as there is a % “bedding in factor” for the first few years of service. Again that was decided by the DfT.

With the Scottish requirement, there has been no contingency on offer to GWR. The early plans that did have such a contingency (I know they did - I wrote them) were junked when the delays to the Hitachi delivery schedules occurred and no-one was going to move on the HST release dates. Since that point it has been hand to mouth, week to week, trying to get to the next stage of the Cascade plan without having to rewrite it again.

 

[43096]

With the Scottish requirement, there has been no contingency on offer to GWR. The early plans that did have such a contingency (I know they did - I wrote them) were junked when the delays to the Hitachi delivery schedules occurred and no-one was going to move on the HST release dates. Since that point it has been hand to mouth, week to week, trying to get to the next stage of the Cascade plan without having to rewrite it again.

There have been some changes to the ScotRail handover programme which have allowed a small amount of leeway - not much, but a little.

At least now the ScotRail handover is all but complete, it will hopefully be easier to cover late delivery of the Hitachi sets as the pressure will be off (other than in financial terms!) to be off-leasing HSTs.

 

[Wychwood93]

The planned requirement on the GWR 800 sets has been contracted by the DfT. It’s not an option for GWR to “wind it down”.

GWR have to pay, in the case of the 5 car units, for 32 diagrams a day, seven days a week at a cost of five figures per unit, per day. Even having two of these units at the moment on train crew diagrams is hideously expensive.

If one of those 32 units are not available for a whole day and that non-availability is the fault of Hitachi, GWR only get half that daily payment back, as there is a % “bedding in factor” for the first few years of service. Again that was decided by the DfT.

With the Scottish requirement, there has been no contingency on offer to GWR. The early plans that did have such a contingency (I know they did - I wrote them) were junked when the delays to the Hitachi delivery schedules occurred and no-one was going to move on the HST release dates. Since that point it has been hand to mouth, week to week, trying to get to the next stage of the Cascade plan without having to rewrite it again.

Let us get this roughly right - five figures per unit per day gives a minimum of £10,000 p.unit p.day - a minimum of £320,000 per day for single unit coverage of all 32 diagrams. Multiply this for a week yields a minimum of £2,240,000 - that is a lot! Take the figures forward to a year and it really does become rather silly figures!! I might be having one of my silly moments, but a side of me thinks that buy them outright and have, say, a 3 year warranty might turn out to be cheaper. At the moment Hitachi must be loving the deal! The cost for each unit, if purchased 'off the shelf' would have been? I would hate to say it, but the DfT are spending 'our' money!

 

[broadgage]

I genuinely did not expect to be adding 'the wrong shade of green' to my Spurious Reasons to Hate New Rolling Stock spreadsheet. Well done, everyone concerned.

I don't much like it, but the bright green stripe is a LONG way down my list of things to worry about.
No buffet.
Too often half length.
Often reservations not available.
Are IMHO more significant than a narrow green stripe.

 

[tasky]

I suggest you look at the GWR website and move along the menu bar items to the right of the red 'Buy tickets' button, or look at a GWR pocket timetable and see which colour is used to highlight Saturday services and named express trains, before incorrectly claiming this shade of green is not part of GWR branding. Its use may be limited, but it is clearly one of the approved colours.

I stand corrected! Still looks awful

It's used as an accent colour. It's what it's used for in timetables, on the exterior of the trains, and that is what the interior lime stripe is, and it does what it was designed for perfectly: accent.

You're right that it's clearly intended as an accenting colour in the style guide, but that's not what it does here, it dominates the interior.

By the looks of it on the website and the exteriors of other rolling stock it is used alongside the dark green, in which context it looks a lot better. But that isn't the dominant shade (or really there at all) in the interiors so it doesn't have the same visual affect.

 

[northernbelle]

I stand corrected! Still looks awful



You're right that it's clearly intended as an accenting colour in the style guide, but that's not what it does here, it dominates the interior.

By the looks of it on the website and the exteriors of other rolling stock it is used alongside the dark green, in which context it looks a lot better. But that isn't the dominant shade (or really there at all) in the interiors so it doesn't have the same visual affect.

Given the alternative was 50 shades of DfT grey, I was rather pleased to see a splash of colour in the interiors.

All the GWR interiors have that bright green as the strongest shade - have a look at the headrests on the 387s as an example.

 

[404250]

Don't mind the green stripe myself - it just adds a bit of colour to the wall. The reservation lights are much brighter. Having used the darker seat covers a couple of times now I can say they're definately more comfortable and look higher quality. A 9 car 800 with the dark seat covers working on electric power is an excellent train. 1st class is far too similar to the standard class experience so not worth the cost on these trains.

 

[Railperf]

I look forward to seeing how close to an hour we can get to Bristol Parkway in. I reckon 1hr 5mins should be doable.

In the not too distant past - London Paddington to Bristol Parkway non-stop was scheduled in something like 65 or 67 mins. I'm sure the best timings achieved were around 62 minutes, Timings for stopping services will show greatest time savings as you save a minute accelerating from each station. A non-stop service only benefits from the initial acceleration to 125mph out of Paddington, and then the partial acceleration from lower speed restrictions through Reading and Wootton Basset, tunnels etc. Timings will also reflect how the service interfaces with other cross country and regional services at the major junctions. That might explain the lengthy 4.5 min dwell time at Bristol Parkway at present for some Swansea bound services.

 

[Mintona]

In the not too distant past - London Paddington to Bristol Parkway non-stop was scheduled in something like 65 or 67 mins. I'm sure the best timings achieved were around 62 minutes, Timings for stopping services will show greatest time savings as you save a minute accelerating from each station. A non-stop service only benefits from the initial acceleration to 125mph out of Paddington, and then the partial acceleration from lower speed restrictions through Reading and Wootton Basset, tunnels etc. Timings will also reflect how the service interfaces with other cross country and regional services at the major junctions. That might explain the lengthy 4.5 min dwell time at Bristol Parkway at present for some Swansea bound services.

The odds of getting a clear run through Southall, Slough, Reading, Didcot East Jn, Swindon, Wootton Bassett Jn and Westerleigh Jn on the same run seem very small, but we can hope!

 

[Nippy]

I will have to wait until I am on shift, prime all the signallers and driver that we are going to try for an official run and see what we can achieve.......

 

[Envoy]

So, what is the intended timetable once the electricity reaches Cardiff? I have not seen any publication of the proposed timetable and think it might be a good idea if this was available for comment. I wonder if it is possible to get from London to Cardiff in 100 minutes?

 

[aar0]

the bright green stripe is a LONG way down my list of things to worry about.

No buffet.
Too often half length.
Often reservations not available

LONG way down my list

Is 3 items a long list?

 

[Mintona]

I will have to wait until I am on shift, prime all the signallers and driver that we are going to try for an official run and see what we can achieve.......

Definitely keen for that.

 

[47271]

The 1st class offering is not to the same standard as the HSTs, that's pretty much fact. Whether that's actually an issue or not is personal opinion, but it does mean that the 'standard is bad to make more people use first' argument is, I would say, invalid.

Agreed, and my personal opinion as someone who needs space to work is that GWR HST Standard was so bad for table space that their extortionate First Class fares were worth paying. So extortionate in fact that never once have I had anyone else with me at a table of four on an HST at any time in the past three years.

Now Standard is good enough for tables and First little better in any respect other than a bit more space that I don't need to bother with it on IET. I tried it once mind you. There were four other people in the entire carriage. Maybe they need to think a bit about their First Class fares now...

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I'll be honest, I find the First Class HST's more colouful. However, I've had a great experience in First Class on GWR IET's (17:26 from Worcester Foregate Street to Oxford on the 19/02/18 and 10:17 from Didcot Parkway to Gloucester on the 10/02/18 as I've been able to afford it and I've had a First Class service from the on-board team)! The seats are very comfortable.

I'm booked into First Class on the 10:20 from Oxford to Worcester Foregate Street on the 05/12/18, 2 weeks before my 26th Birthday.

If I'm honest also, I reckon the First Class hosts in First Class on IET's have had complaints that it must make their job or day happier when someone enters, with a valid ticket, in First Class.

The feedback probably explains why First Class on the IET's I've been on has had barely a few people in it. I will still be using First Class on the IET's - a happy journey, comfortable seat, punctual / not too delayed train and efficient friendly service is all I'm after. The colour doesn't matter.

I'd love to know why TPExpress's Class 185's and I guess some SWR Class 450 / 444's are getting leather seats though - I believe IET's can't have leather seats due to fire s safety regulations. I find that (to be polite) rubbish, unless the IET design dictates it.

 

[Meerkat]

My train travel is purely leisure only (so a market that GWR need to attract), mainly on SWR, and had my first trip on an IET yesterday (a full plus standing 2x5 West from Reading).
Impressive performance and couldn’t swear to when the diesels came on so noise levels good.
Ride was flat (ie non wobbly) but very jittery - like a car with hard suspension and low profiles....
I liked the lighting - much better than the ghastly flourescents on the HST back.
The green stripe is a bit garish, especially with the Christmas tree reservation lights (are they all that useful as a green light doesn’t mean unoccupied and lots of reservations were empty....?). Clearly not confident with system as all seats had paper reservations too...
Station stops were very slow - everything is very narrow, doors, vestibules, gangways.
Lastly apart from the ample leg space the seats are absolutely unforgivable. My bum and thighs were numb in less than 30 minutes and my head was resting on the rock hard top edge of the seats.
The CIS does flicker badly, but I only noticed when close by queuing to get off. The guard announcements were inaudible though the recorded ones were fine.
Think I will drive next time

 

[jimm]

Is 3 items a long list?

There's plenty more - try post 9125 on page 305 for a flavour.

Perhaps broadgage is getting tired of typing the same things out over and over after so many years. But probably not.

 

[CMRail]

There's plenty more - try post 9125 on page 305 for a flavour.

Perhaps broadgage is getting tired of typing the same things out over and over after so many years. But probably not.

That’s the first time he mentioned it I think..

 

[swt_passenger]

So, what is the intended timetable once the electricity reaches Cardiff? I have not seen any publication of the proposed timetable and think it might be a good idea if this was available for comment. I wonder if it is possible to get from London to Cardiff in 100 minutes?

In the 2015 franchise brief there is a table showing proposed timings between Paddington and main destinations, the fastest Cardiff time is 105 mins, the typical time is 113 mins. The faster time seems to be a peak only service running non stop from Bristol Parkway.

But that was then, it could be completely different by the end of next year, or whenever the main changes occur.

 

[Envoy]

In the 2015 franchise brief there is a table showing proposed timings between Paddington and main destinations, the fastest Cardiff time is 105 mins, the typical time is 113 mins. The faster time seems to be a peak only service running non stop from Bristol Parkway.

But that was then, it could be completely different by the end of next year, or whenever the main changes occur.

It would be great for marketing if they could get it down to 100 minutes. (The M4 could sure do with less traffic). I have been assuming that the new faster schedules would be introduced at the start of the summer 2019 timetable - but perhaps I am wrong?

 

[swt_passenger]

It would be great for marketing if they could get it down to 100 minutes. (The M4 could sure do with less traffic). I have been assuming that the new faster schedules would be introduced at the start of the summer 2019 timetable - but perhaps I am wrong?

The implication of the original announcement about deferring Dec 18 changes was that current timetables would be rolled over until at least May 2019, but a number of insiders have posted that Dec 19 is far more likely now. (This isn’t just affecting GWR of course.)

 

[FGW_DID]

the Christmas tree reservation lights (are they all that useful as a green light doesn’t mean unoccupied and lots of reservations were empty....?). Clearly not confident with system as all seats had paper reservations too...

Seat Reservation Lights not Seat Occupancy Lights. With paper tickets does the absence of a ticket mean the seat will be empty?

Green = unreserved.
Yellow = reserved for a forthcoming part of the journey.
Red = reserved for that part of the journey

The one time I have actually seen the system working properly, I boarded a 9 car IET at Hanborough, the Seat light in front had the yellow light lit and the scrolling display said “Reserved, Oxford to Paddington”. As the train rolled into the platform, the yellow light extinguished and the red indicator lit.
When it works it works well!

 

[Fearless]

The one time I have actually seen the system working properly, I boarded a 9 car IET at Hanborough, the Seat light in front had the yellow light lit and the scrolling display said “Reserved, Oxford to Paddington”. As the train rolled into the platform, the yellow light extinguished and the red indicator lit.
When it works it works well!

It's the best innovation for passenger comfort in a long time, in my opinion. Far superior to the Voyagers' scrolling information, where you can find yourself standing at each seat for several seconds waiting to find out which part of the journey the seat is actually reserved for. On the IET, the lights system means you can see the whole carriage at a glance.

If only it was working on the trains I use...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like that feature, it seems quite effective.

Considered Weekend First but the seats are not worth £20, barely any more comfortable than Standard and only at a comfortable angle when fully reclined. And the folding tables in 1st are already collapsing.

Did I say cheap rubbish?

Also, owing to ludicrous Union demands that don’t apply at any other TOC, we are running front 5 only so overcrowded.