GWR Class 800

[CharlesR]

Indeed.
It will be hard to convince the average passenger that "IETs are more reliable than GWR HSTs" with these numbers of short formations. I do not recall EVER seeing a half length HST on a long distance service.
And yes I know that HSTs failed and that some shorter routes then got Turbos instead. That however is no consolation to the Bristol or Cardiff passenger who used to get a full length train but now gets 5 car only all too often.

Have you really got nothing better to do with your day than have a sulk that a 42 year old train, funnily enough, has had to leave us one day and GWR didn’t give you infinite money and paid for your Microsoft Office subscription to design your such perfect train?

I read and am a member of the forum you also like to paddy on, the GW Coffee Shop forum where you on a daily basis blame the design and/or reliability of the train for the reasons of short formation. May I start by saying that Customer Satisfaction is the highest in years, and truth be told I do not think these statistics are completely fair however it proves some point that a decent amount of people have no issue with them as they have more to do on them than worry about the buffet car and more about getting a seat and being able to het home on time.

Reservation system is still not very reliable, but when it does work it is amazing. The train reliability is statistically better than the HST and the reason for so many short formations at the moment is due to the amount of additional services being ran for Glasto which leads to trains being in difficult places to get to. Other reasons can include the fact that they still need to fit the new trains with the new signage and seat cloths, wash the windows and await 800001/800002 to join the fleet.

We don’t see half length HSTs and 9 car IETs as it is technically impossible. What is the result of an issue on these services? Full cancellation. Your very last paragraph suggests that those who had it bad before should be used to it and that if you are a lucky sod who lives in Bristol or Cardiff then god hope you don’t cry because of the one short formation that you have experienced which in your eyes is a reason to bring back buffer cars or whatever rubbish you come out with..

 

[CharlesR]

Another thing many other forum members fail to understand is the reason for the five car IETs.

London Paddington to Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa

For the December 2019 timetable change, this route is expected to go straight through to London on an hourly basis. This means that the route will only require 5 car formations.

London Paddington to Oxford and Worcester/Great Malvern/Hereford

This service, as of previous, only requires 5 car formations.

London Paddington to Bristol TM via Bristol Parkway

Due to the sheer frequency planned for December 2019 (2tph BRI-PAD via Bath and 2tph BRI-PAD via BPW off peak) for the services running via Parkway, it is lead to believe that they will be running in a 5 car formation alongside 9cars/10cars running via Bath.

 

[samuelmorris]

There are several common faults, which I can’t get into on here. Hitachi have their hands full at the moment but are on it.

Fair enough. A bit concerning that 18 months on they're still overloaded fixing faults, but I assume it will eventually improve. The 5-car vs 9-car short-formation issue should theoretically become a non-issue once unit availability is high enough for there to always be a spare available (which I thought was one of the main points of the IEP contract).

 

[irish_rail]

Another thing many other forum members fail to understand is the reason for the five car IETs.

London Paddington to Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa

For the December 2019 timetable change, this route is expected to go straight through to London on an hourly basis. This means that the route will only require 5 car formations.

London Paddington to Oxford and Worcester/Great Malvern/Hereford

This service, as of previous, only requires 5 car formations.

London Paddington to Bristol TM via Bristol Parkway

Due to the sheer frequency planned for December 2019 (2tph BRI-PAD via Bath and 2tph BRI-PAD via BPW off peak) for the services running via Parkway, it is lead to believe that they will be running in a 5 car formation alongside 9cars/10cars running via Bath.

Shame they have also been foisted on the London to Penzance route.... .

 

[Thunderer]

There are several common faults, which I can’t get into on here. Hitachi have their hands full at the moment but are on it.

Well, lets hope they get them working to a decent standard soon because we all have to suffer this awful Government inflicted train (IET, Infinatively Expensive Train) on the Western Region for at least the next 25 years. For me, they are a very poor and very expensive replacement for the HST. The DFT should not have got involved and let the operators (GWR & Virgin/Stagecoach at the time) choose their own HST replacements. They should have left the people who run the railways actually run the railways, but there was money to be made there via Agility for big companies AXA, Hitachi and Laing, so they couldn't resist meddling and now look what we are left with, its a shambles and shameful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Due to the sheer frequency planned for December 2019 (2tph BRI-PAD via Bath and 2tph BRI-PAD via BPW off peak) for the services running via Parkway, it is lead to believe that they will be running in a 5 car formation alongside 9cars/10cars running via Bath.

It will be interesting to see, but I fear the "sparks effect" will result in it looking like CrossCountry. A service enhancement like that (if done well) should attract similar additional levels of custom as the faster and more frequent Euston to Manchester service did - and they, in the end, have ended up running three trains an hour, each of which has more capacity than the one train that ran previously.

I think they will regret it, quite quickly.

 

[broadgage]

Have you really got nothing better to do with your day than have a sulk that a 42 year old train, funnily enough, has had to leave us one day and GWR didn’t give you infinite money and paid for your Microsoft Office subscription to design your such perfect train?

I read and am a member of the forum you also like to paddy on, the GW Coffee Shop forum where you on a daily basis blame the design and/or reliability of the train for the reasons of short formation. May I start by saying that Customer Satisfaction is the highest in years, and truth be told I do not think these statistics are completely fair however it proves some point that a decent amount of people have no issue with them as they have more to do on them than worry about the buffet car and more about getting a seat and being able to het home on time.

Reservation system is still not very reliable, but when it does work it is amazing. The train reliability is statistically better than the HST and the reason for so many short formations at the moment is due to the amount of additional services being ran for Glasto which leads to trains being in difficult places to get to. Other reasons can include the fact that they still need to fit the new trains with the new signage and seat cloths, wash the windows and await 800001/800002 to join the fleet.

We don’t see half length HSTs and 9 car IETs as it is technically impossible. What is the result of an issue on these services? Full cancellation. Your very last paragraph suggests that those who had it bad before should be used to it and that if you are a lucky sod who lives in Bristol or Cardiff then god hope you don’t cry because of the one short formation that you have experienced which in your eyes is a reason to bring back buffer cars or whatever rubbish you come out with..

I fully appreciate that the HSTs could not have carried for much longer and am by no means opposed to progress. I am not opposed to new trains as such, but the IETs have now been in general use for about 18 months with short formations featuring regularly, whether blamed on crew training, late delivery, teething problems, hot weather or Glastonbury.
I make no claims of being able to design the perfect train, but DO feel that I could have improved upon the IET offering in a few simple ways, including, a larger proportion of full length trains and fewer 5 car units. Increasing the fleet size by just one one extra train would have been of considerable assistance at times of stock shortage.
I would also have retained a handful of HSTs for the remainder of this calendar year, to cover for any stock shortages. Probably not for longer than that as they are about to become non-compliant without hugely costly modifications.
And yes, I would have had buffet cars on at least the 9 car units, not quite certain why you consider this idea to be "rubbish" IETs elsewhere ARE allowed buffet cars, and I am not alone in considering that inter-city trains should have this facility.

Whilst I respect other views to my own, I do not consider that more full length trains, with buffets, and the short term retention of a few HSTs to be "whatever rubbish That I might come out with"

 

[pt_mad]

As loathe as I am to join in the seat debate, for clarity, the seats with the plain material covering have had (will have) the seat covers replaced with the moquette material and nothing else, so the only difference is the material, the base, the foam and every other part remains original.

So are all the GWR sets having moquette seat covers in place of existing cloth covers? Does the moquette have any sort of colour design on it?

Are there any photos showing the difference in appearance?

Has the moquette started to be rolled out yet and if so do most sets still have cloth or are the moquette covers quite widespread now?

 

[Mintona]

I believe I am correct in saying that 800/0s have the cloth, with the exception of 800012 and 800035 which have been changed. On the 800/3s it is around the 800303-309 range which have cloth, the rest have moquette. And all of the 802s have the moquette.

If you look on the Wikipedia page for ‘Class 800’ you’ll see a picture of the cloth, and on the ‘Class 802’ page a picture of the moquette.

 

[Weekender]

London Paddington to Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa

For the December 2019 timetable change, this route is expected to go straight through to London on an hourly basis. This means that the route will only require 5 car formations.

I assume/hope this only applies to off peak services.

 

[DannyMich2018]

I fully appreciate that the HSTs could not have carried for much longer and am by no means opposed to progress. I am not opposed to new trains as such, but the IETs have now been in general use for about 18 months with short formations featuring regularly, whether blamed on crew training, late delivery, teething problems, hot weather or Glastonbury.
I make no claims of being able to design the perfect train, but DO feel that I could have improved upon the IET offering in a few simple ways, including, a larger proportion of full length trains and fewer 5 car units. Increasing the fleet size by just one one extra train would have been of considerable assistance at times of stock shortage.
I would also have retained a handful of HSTs for the remainder of this calendar year, to cover for any stock shortages. Probably not for longer than that as they are about to become non-compliant without hugely costly modifications.
And yes, I would have had buffet cars on at least the 9 car units, not quite certain why you consider this idea to be "rubbish" IETs elsewhere ARE allowed buffet cars, and I am not alone in considering that inter-city trains should have this facility.

Whilst I respect other views to my own, I do not consider that more full length trains, with buffets, and the short term retention of a few HSTs to be "whatever rubbish That I might come out with"

I agree that far too many 5-car units were ordered which is causing problems frequently when a 5-car replaces 10 or 9 on a busy service, unlike the ECML when 13-9 car Class 800s replaces a similar number of 9-coach HSTs and 30 9-Car 801s replace a similar number of Class 91 formations, the 5-car units on the ECML are used for extra services so no capacity lost! Also regarding buffets the EMT Class 222 all have these despite London to Nottingham or Sheffield been shorter than many GWR routes! With today to be possibly hottest day of the year be interesting how many short forms or other problems they might be.

 

[reddragon]

Today is indeed a bad day for availability - 5 x "5 Vice" diagrams at start of day - a potential total of 22 services affected today.

Too many 9 car sets (of both classes) stopped.

Perhaps, runs for cover, some HSTs could be used . . . . .

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps they should build some additional carriages to increase the majority of 5 cars to 9. This could be fitted in after the Hull trains replacements have been built.

The HST's would just have to soldier on, on the MML for a bit longer while these are completed.

 

[irish_rail]

I agree that far too many 5-car units were ordered which is causing problems frequently when a 5-car replaces 10 or 9 on a busy service, unlike the ECML when 13-9 car Class 800s replaces a similar number of 9-coach HSTs and 30 9-Car 801s replace a similar number of Class 91 formations, the 5-car units on the ECML are used for extra services so no capacity lost! Also regarding buffets the EMT Class 222 all have these despite London to Nottingham or Sheffield been shorter than many GWR routes! With today to be possibly hottest day of the year be interesting how many short forms or other problems they might be.

Exactly. Sadly the western was the guinea pig for the whole project and we ultimately suffer as a result . In an ideal world build more 9 cars send them to GWR and we let some of our 5 cars go to cross country or east Midlands.

 

[43096]

There are several common faults, which I can’t get into on here. Hitachi have their hands full at the moment but are on it.

Are they though? We're still seeing regular short forms and restricted working sets. Sending out "diesel only" sets with an engine out isn't unknown, either, which is just poor planning and maintenance. Given that the full timetable isn't in place yet, it is to be hoped (s)Hitachi are upping their game in pretty short order. Yes, they are still two sets short and no doubt there's an on-going mod programme, but it doesn't bode well for the full timetable.

 

[broadgage]

Perhaps, runs for cover, some HSTs could be used . . . . .

I agree, not a long term answer, but would certainly have helped for this summer/autumn.

 

[broadgage]

Perhaps they should build some additional carriages to increase the majority of 5 cars to 9. This could be fitted in after the Hull trains replacements have been built.

The HST's would just have to soldier on, on the MML for a bit longer while these are completed.

Agree. Adding 4 vehicles to an existing 5 car unit would roughly double the capacity and at a lower cost than a new additional 5 car unit. Only 4 vehicles need be built, not 5, and non driving cars should be cheaper than ones with cabs.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Are they though? We're still seeing regular short forms and restricted working sets. Sending out "diesel only" sets with an engine out isn't unknown, either, which is just poor planning and maintenance. Given that the full timetable isn't in place yet, it is to be hoped (s)Hitachi are upping their game in pretty short order. Yes, they are still two sets short and no doubt there's an on-going mod programme, but it doesn't bode well for the full timetable.

It isn’t all “poor planning and maintenance” - there are some design and materials issues in there too. The full timetable doesn’t require any extra units in availability from the current daily target but they do have to have electric capability to meet the timings and that is a real concern, given the number of DO restricted units each day and the time it is taking to fix them.

 

[coppercapped]

It isn’t all “poor planning and maintenance” - there are some design and materials issues in there too. The full timetable doesn’t require any extra units in availability from the current daily target but they do have to have electric capability to meet the timings and that is a real concern, given the number of DO restricted units each day and the time it is taking to fix them.

So, if you were a betting man, what are the chances that Agility Trains / Hitachi will be in a position to reliably supply the number of trainsets required for the new timetable each and every day by December?
As a supplementary question, and with an eye on published data on Miles per Technical Incident, what are the chances that these trains will complete a days' work without going 'twang'?

There are only about five months before the timetable change - and I would have thought that GWR would want and expect at least a couple of four week periods of reliable running before the change so they can sleep easily...

Can one expect Hitachi to work miracles in three months?

 

[Thunderer]

I fully appreciate that the HSTs could not have carried for much longer and am by no means opposed to progress. I am not opposed to new trains as such, but the IETs have now been in general use for about 18 months with short formations featuring regularly, whether blamed on crew training, late delivery, teething problems, hot weather or Glastonbury.
I make no claims of being able to design the perfect train, but DO feel that I could have improved upon the IET offering in a few simple ways, including, a larger proportion of full length trains and fewer 5 car units. Increasing the fleet size by just one one extra train would have been of considerable assistance at times of stock shortage.
I would also have retained a handful of HSTs for the remainder of this calendar year, to cover for any stock shortages. Probably not for longer than that as they are about to become non-compliant without hugely costly modifications.
And yes, I would have had buffet cars on at least the 9 car units, not quite certain why you consider this idea to be "rubbish" IETs elsewhere ARE allowed buffet cars, and I am not alone in considering that inter-city trains should have this facility.

Whilst I respect other views to my own, I do not consider that more full length trains, with buffets, and the short term retention of a few HSTs to be "whatever rubbish That I might come out with"

Sounds like you are talking perfect logical sense to me, you'd never get a job in the DFT talking that much logic and sense ha...

 

[Thunderer]

It isn’t all “poor planning and maintenance” - there are some design and materials issues in there too. The full timetable doesn’t require any extra units in availability from the current daily target but they do have to have electric capability to meet the timings and that is a real concern, given the number of DO restricted units each day and the time it is taking to fix them.

Design issues? Wasn't we promised Japanese style reliability and Bullet Train Technology? Current Results do speak for themselves. More short forms today, one Padd-Newquay and Padd-Pembroke Dock, both 5 cars, resulting in more and more fed up holidaymaker passengers that will next year probably choose to drive, rather than have the sardine experience. I feel sorry for GWR as they have had no choice (apart from walking away) with the IEP, they have to make it work, they have been given a turd to polish, but at this time they are struggling to run a basic service, which is down to bad planning, maintenance issues, material/component and technical issues and dare I say it, too many 5 car units and not enough 9 car units (blame the DFT for that quality decision). Im sure they will eventually "get it right" over time, but a new higher frequency timetable in 6 months time is a bit like running before you can walk, there are a lot of issues that they have to sort out in 6 months, otherwise it will be a shambles.

 

[Pete_uk]

Another thing many other forum members fail to understand is the reason for the five car IETs.

London Paddington to Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa

For the December 2019 timetable change, this route is expected to go straight through to London on an hourly basis. This means that the route will only require 5 car formations.

Hourly or not, that's going to be a big ask.

 

[43096]

It isn’t all “poor planning and maintenance” - there are some design and materials issues in there too.

Poor planning and maintenance is relatively easily fixable; design issues less so, so it's actually worse than I thought.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Not really that bad - we had design issues with the HST sets when they were introduced and it didn’t stop them.

The new timetable doesn’t require any more units, it’s just a different deployment. The challenge for Hitachi will be consistently providing units that can reliably operate on electric because only these units on electric can operate the proposed timings.

We’ll see how they progress in the next few months.

 

[yorksrob]

Not really that bad - we had design issues with the HST sets when they were introduced and it didn’t stop them.

The new timetable doesn’t require any more units, it’s just a different deployment. The challenge for Hitachi will be consistently providing units that can reliably operate on electric because only these units on electric can operate the proposed timings.

We’ll see how they progress in the next few months.

I'll be interested to see what loadings are like West of Exeter this year. Certainly the fixed formation HST's enabled things to become less crowded at that end of the line.

 

[Master29]

Another thing many other forum members fail to understand is the reason for the five car IETs.

London Paddington to Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa

For the December 2019 timetable change, this route is expected to go straight through to London on an hourly basis. This means that the route will only require 5 car formations.

London Paddington to Oxford and Worcester/Great Malvern/Hereford

This service, as of previous, only requires 5 car formations.

London Paddington to Bristol TM via Bristol Parkway

Due to the sheer frequency planned for December 2019 (2tph BRI-PAD via Bath and 2tph BRI-PAD via BPW off peak) for the services running via Parkway, it is lead to believe that they will be running in a 5 car formation alongside 9cars/10cars running via Bath.

You have a point about these routes but how does that relate to the 22 5 car units on the West of England route. I`m deliberately refraining from the point of Sidings at Penzance not being long enough as this is a mistake by the DfT.

 

[CharlesR]

You have a point about these routes but how does that relate to the 22 5 car units on the West of England route. I`m deliberately refraining from the point of Sidings at Penzance not being long enough as this is a mistake by the DfT.

There are issues across the network where you can’t fit 10 cars for a stupid reason sadly, and we are going have to work around that for the next 28 years that we have them.

The 22 5 car units will be used for Bedwyn services, the proposed new Exeter semi-fast service, and for splitting at Plymouth to carry onwards to Penzance. Remember that you do have eight nine car units, however, these will be used on the North Cotswolds as well.

 

[irish_rail]

There are issues across the network where you can’t fit 10 cars for a stupid reason sadly, and we are going have to work around that for the next 28 years that we have

The 22 5 car units will be used for Bedwyn services, the proposed new Exeter semi-fast service, and for splitting at Plymouth to carry onwards to Penzance. Remember that you do have eight nine car units, however, these will be used on the North Cotswolds as well.

Yes but worryingly from December virtually none of those 9 cars will be used on the Plymouth and Penzance route only the 5s and.pairs of 5s. Plenty of 9 cars down this way at present being high summer, and they are working well compared to the services formed of 5 or 10, which consistently confuse and frustrate passengers and staff alike.

 

[Master29]

There are issues across the network where you can’t fit 10 cars for a stupid reason sadly, and we are going have to work around that for the next 28 years that we have them.

The 22 5 car units will be used for Bedwyn services, the proposed new Exeter semi-fast service, and for splitting at Plymouth to carry onwards to Penzance. Remember that you do have eight nine car units, however, these will be used on the North Cotswolds as well.

We`ve had 28 years to do something about Penzance. It`s actually 14 9 car 802`s but half of them were a follow on order for the Cotswolds line. The W of E line has always been onto a loser both under BR and privatisation.

 

[AlexNL]

Sidings at Penzance not being long enough

What would the maximum length be that those sidings can handle without blocking access? 8×26m coaches?