GWR Class 800

[southern442]

Are there any places that won't be electrified in the next year or so that have a speed limit greater than 110?

 

[gsnedders]

Are there any places that won't be electrified in the next year or so that have a speed limit greater than 110?

Plenty of the GWML, given that's late.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Plenty of the GWML, given that's late.

The chances are, in August 2017, the majority of the route, maybe all of it, will be run on diesel.
Wires may be live Paddington-Maidenhead and Tilehurst-Didcot, but is switching mode twice per trip at speed practicable, particularly for the latter section?
It would certainly be an acid test of the flexibility of the bi-mode functionality.
Maidenhead-Didcot has a Hendy date of Dec 2017, which still leaves more than half the route on diesel until Dec 2018 or later.

 

[Rich McLean]

They will all be timed for 110 max and increased service levels not implemented until wires have reached Swindon and are live. At that point they can up timing load to 125mph and introduce the extra diagrams

 

[asylumxl]

Would it not make more sense to allow the engines to run at full power for 125mph off the wires until electrification is complete?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would it not make more sense to allow the engines to run at full power for 125mph off the wires until electrification is complete?

There is likely to be a contractual implication to do that, and maybe the 110mph plan is a compromise.

 

[absolutelymilk]

There will also be journey time benefits from the 800's better acceleration off the mark compared to the HST.

 

[southern442]

Why can't they run at 125mph on diesel? Seems a bit silly to me.

 

[asylumxl]

Why can't they run at 125mph on diesel? Seems a bit silly to me.

I was under the impression they can, but are (electronically) derated to reduce wear and maintenance cost.

I imagine the parties involved have basically decided they don't want to pay the price to run at 125mph...

 

[jimm]

The entire GWR fleet of IEP and AT300 trains will now be bi-modes, with the 21 Class 801s to be delivered as nine-car 800s instead.

A Parliamentary written answer from Claire Perry, the Rail Minister, published today, says that the Transport Secretary has approved the change.

Rolling Stock: Procurement:Written question - 37456

Q Asked by Ben Howlett(Bath)Asked on: 18 May 2016

To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, whether his Department has made a decision on the proposed conversion of Class 801 Intercity Express Programme units to bi-mode diesel operation.

A Answered by: Claire Perry Answered on: 26 May 2016

Following the receipt of a formal proposal from Agility Trains West Ltd, My Rt Hon Friend, the Secretary of State for Transport has now approved the conversion of the 21 Class 801 Intercity Express Programme units scheduled for deployment on the Great Western to bi-mode operation. This will enable passengers in the South West and Wales to benefit as soon as possible from brand new trains which will deliver more capacity and more comfort. The first 36 trains will be bi-mode as planned.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...ts/written-question/Commons/2016-05-18/37456/

 

[Harbornite]

The entire GWR fleet of IEP and AT300 trains will now be bi-modes, with the 21 Class 801s to be delivered as nine-car 800s instead.

A Parliamentary written answer from Claire Perry, the Rail Minister, published today, says that the Transport Secretary has approved the change.



http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...ts/written-question/Commons/2016-05-18/37456/

It's for the best, I guess.

 

[AM9]

It's for the best, I guess.

Isn't that likely to make the excess bi-modes more useful as loaners to other electrification projects to smooth the transition between diesel and full electric?

 

[gsnedders]

Isn't that likely to make the excess bi-modes more useful as loaners to other electrification projects to smooth the transition between diesel and full electric?

I presume it depends whether they get converted to 801s after the GWML electrification is completed. They are designed for easy conversion, after all.

 

[Domh245]

I thought that the IEP units were tied to their respective lines? I would expect that once the wires are fully live, the converted units will have their engines removed to return to being 801s. The engines that come off them could end up going anywhere though.

 

[D365]

The engines that come off them could end up going anywhere though.

As far as I am aware, the diesel power plants are leased from MTU.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The extra engines are only needed for the awkward period between when the GWML electrification was meant to be finished and when it actually will be. In the worst case scenario, that'll be around 2020 or so. After that date, the engines won't be needed, but Hitachi will still most certainly be churning out AT300s, and bi-mode ones at that. There will be 20 9-car bi-mode sets on ICEC and GW (13 800s + 7 802s) and extending them to 10-car will require another powered intermediate vehicle, so that's 20 of the engines accounted for. Depending upon just when the engines become available, they might end up in some of the later current orders like the Hull Trains or TransPennine Express units. If CrossCountry were to obtain a fleet that would be a long term home for them.

 

[Mikey C]

Are there any places that won't be electrified in the next year or so that have a speed limit greater than 110?

I've been wondering this. If the 800s are restricted to 110 on routes where the HSTs currently can do 125, surely this will result in a slower service and cocked up timetables?

 

[ainsworth74]

Once the wires are up there shouldn't be any sections where the 800s (those that are restricted to 110mph anyway) will need to do 125mph on diesel. There may however be a period in between now and then where it might be an issue. But I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of deal is done between GWR and Agility Trains to get them doing 125mph on diesel at least temporarily.

 

[najaB]

I've been wondering this. If the 800s are restricted to 110 on routes where the HSTs currently can do 125, surely this will result in a slower service and cocked up timetables?

Depends on the stopping patterns as they will be faster to 110mph than the HSTs are.

 

[43074]

Depends on the stopping patterns as they will be faster to 110mph than the HSTs are.

Has Hitachi released details of the acceleration of the 800s on diesel mode? Much of the speculation suggests that on electric they will certainly be faster accelerating than the HSTs, however on diesel there are suggestions that the trains will be faster accelerating to approx 40mph, but HSTs are quicker reaching 100mph+ because they have more power above that.

 

[HowardGWR]

I see the bullet has been bitten.
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...l-class-801s-will-be-bi-mode?&dorewrite=false

The new Class 801 units being introduced to the Great Western Main Line (GWML) will be converted to bi-mode operation, the Department for Transport (DfT) has confirmed.
In response to a written question from Ben Howlett MP, Claire Perry, the rail minister, announced that the transport secretary, Patrick McLoughlin, has now approved the conversion of the 21 Class 801 Intercity Express Programme (IEP) Units.
Last month, Perry revealed that the DfT had received a formal submission from Agility Trains West, the train supplier, to convert the Class 801s.
Originally the Class 801 fleet was to be an entirely electric fleet, supported by 36 five-car bi-mode Class 800s due to be running on the Great Western routes from 2017-18.

 

[swt_passenger]

I see the bullet has been bitten.
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...l-class-801s-will-be-bi-mode?&dorewrite=false

As seen on the previous page also, hence the overnight discussion about speeds of the bi-modes being restarted...

 

[159220]

I've been wondering this. If the 800s are restricted to 110 on routes where the HSTs currently can do 125, surely this will result in a slower service and cocked up timetables?

Their superior acceleration and the fact that they are not slammed door and thus station dwell time shall be significantly less, means they could keep to a HST 125 mph timetable - especially seen due to the congestion on the GWML the HSTs rarely run at 125 mph for long periods.

Anyway, where did they 110 mph come from? I have understood, for a long time, and my source is Hitachi themselves....that the AT300 for IEP can run at 125 mph if the engines are up-rated by computer to full 700 kW.

800001, 800002 & 800101 have all ran at 125 mph on their MTUs.

 

[HowardGWR]

Good points. They have to hoist themslves up into the Cotswolds from a mile or so from TM (Lawrence Hill) or the South Wales ones from Pilning, (although not a standing start from there). From Bath to Wootton Bassett is a standing start test, too. Top speed is not generally relevant on those uphill stretches. The rest of the GWML is the often mentioned 'billiard table'.

I didn't see the previous discussion, so apologies for repeat info.

 

[The Ham]

One alternative use for the extra engines is to provide for the extra wear and tear of the engines having run at higher speeds.

 

[Mintona]

Sensible also, as diversionary routes can now be retained.

 

[dgl]

Also could this mean that the engines even though they are leased being used like the engines for the 66's by being used in another type of new build train/loco and getting around any new emissions laws.

 

[D365]

Also could this mean that the engines even though they are leased being used like the engines for the 66's by being used in another type of new build train/loco and getting around any new emissions laws.

Possibly, if Hitachi is to build more AT300s, or the GWR units will be retained as bi-mode and replaced by 'pure' electric units in the future.

 

[coppercapped]

Also could this mean that the engines even though they are leased being used like the engines for the 66's by being used in another type of new build train/loco and getting around any new emissions laws.

The power packs meet the EU's Stage IIIB emissions limits, so yes, they could be re-used in future applications after the Stage IV limits come into effect. Regarding future changes, the European Commission in September 2014 proposed Stage V emission regulations, but at the moment these have no US or Japanese equivalent. As a result it might be some time before they come into effect as engine manufacturers need to be able to develop products with a world-wide market in view.

I'm not sure what you mean by the engines being leased. The IEP deal is that the Great Western TOC pays Agility Trains for the train diagrams which have been operated - the TOC is NOT leasing the trains. How Agility Trains pays for the power plants is part of the deal between Agility Trains and Hitachi and no details have been published. Equally no details of the deal between Hitachi and MTU, the supplier of the power packs, have been made public so it will not be known if MTU are selling the power packs outright or whether they are being supplied under some sort of 'power-by-the-hour' or lease arrangement.

The AT300 trains being procured by Eversholt from Hitachi are being leased by GWR from the ROSCO - but the lease refers to the whole train rather than only to the power packs.

 

[superkev]

I see the bullet has been bitten.
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...l-class-801s-will-be-bi-mode?&dorewrite=false

As coach's with engines have a raised floor presumably the shells haven't been built yet.
K