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GWR Class 800

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samuelmorris

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The engine performance; and management of it; is completely different between the two classes.

That’s controlled from the on train software.

While the DfT have allowed some unmuzzling of the 800s; it’s not to the degree the 802s have been opened up for West of England services.

Therefore 2 versions of the software have to exist; one for 800s, one for 802s.

Therefore the trains will not talk to one another.
While that makes sense, it doesn't explain why, given it's the same traction system and management system controlling it, they couldn't have configured it such that if a unit with the reduced performance was coupled, the two couldn't harmonise to the lower performance setting. That's just wilfully ignorant on Hitchi's part. It was clearly never deemed a requirement, so they didn't code for it. Who told them it would never be required, I wonder?
 
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Bletchleyite

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The engine performance; and management of it; is completely different between the two classes.

That’s controlled from the on train software.

While the DfT have allowed some unmuzzling of the 800s; it’s not to the degree the 802s have been opened up for West of England services.

Therefore 2 versions of the software have to exist; one for 800s, one for 802s.

Therefore the trains will not talk to one another.

That is an excuse. If properly written, the software on the two units would communicate with one another and degrade gracefully to the lower performance level.
 

Grumbler

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The engine performance; and management of it; is completely different between the two classes.

That’s controlled from the on train software.

While the DfT have allowed some unmuzzling of the 800s; it’s not to the degree the 802s have been opened up for West of England services.

Therefore 2 versions of the software have to exist; one for 800s, one for 802s.

Therefore the trains will not talk to one another.
Well they could talk, but they'd argue.
"Speed up a bit!"
"No, slow down!"
"I'm out of fuel, have we got there yet?"
 

Dai Corner

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That is an excuse. If properly written, the software on the two units would communicate with one another and degrade gracefully to the lower performance level.

I'm sure the software could be modified if somebody requested and paid for it.
 

Goldfish62

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Yes I'm quite shocked to see the A30 as well as several other major roads in Cornwall rendered impassable but yet pretty trivial delays to GWR services all day.
The section of the A30 which was blocked is on high ground over Bodmin Moor which is why it was badly affected.
 

whhistle

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Well they could talk, but they'd argue.
"Speed up a bit!"
"No, slow down!"
"I'm out of fuel, have we got there yet?"
Ha ha! Needs like button.



I'm sure the software could be modified if somebody requested and paid for it.
Which makes me wonder if Hitachi has almost purposefully made them different so they cannot talk without a (probably simple) modification = more cash for them.
 

John R

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Well still running this morning and bang on time!
Well, 1A71 failed at Westbury this morning, causing 2hr+ delays to several services stuck behind it (over 3 hrs for one). Was that an IET or HST?
 

Dren Ahmeti

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Well, 1A71 failed at Westbury this morning, causing 2hr+ delays to several services stuck behind it (over 3 hrs for one). Was that an IET or HST?
HST, another HST set came on 1A72 and propelled it into Westbury, blocking Down Main platform 2 as two HST’s foul the points.
 
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Clarence Yard

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Ha ha! Needs like button.
Which makes me wonder if Hitachi has almost purposefully made them different so they cannot talk without a (probably simple) modification = more cash for them.

No - it's just that the DfT, for contractual reasons, don't want to have the same settings as the cl.802 sets. I'm told it's a fairly simple mod with a laptop to make them identical, once you load that particular version of the software.
 

Thunderer

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The engine performance; and management of it; is completely different between the two classes.

That’s controlled from the on train software.

While the DfT have allowed some unmuzzling of the 800s; it’s not to the degree the 802s have been opened up for West of England services.

Therefore 2 versions of the software have to exist; one for 800s, one for 802s.

Therefore the trains will not talk to one another.
It's Absolutely ludicrous. Its 2019 and we seem to be going backwards? The WR has gone from having one fleet of practically identical HST's which can basically work all the GW Inter-City routes in all weathers with practically no fuss, to two different fleets of practically the same design of train that can't work together. This will cause all sorts of headaches for the operator e.g. Stepping up of diagrams when needed at Paddington (800's can not be contractually "out of place" at the end of the day or exceed allowed milage and now it seems, go west of Exeter when the sea is rough at Dawlish) where as the 802 is declared as "Dawlish Proof" and can more or less work any WR Inter-City diagram. For me, The blame solely lies with the DfT for forcing the IEP on GWR and now LNER, along with its very expensive and complex operating and maintenance agreement that goes with it. The DfT should have kept their ore out of this and allowed the operators to procure their own universal fleet of trains as they see fit, which best fits their operating requirements and passenger needs. The IEP has been a "balls up" from start to delivery and beyond. What ever happened to common sense in the Railway Industry?
 
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No - it's just that the DfT, for contractual reasons, don't want to have the same settings as the cl.802 sets. I'm told it's a fairly simple mod with a laptop to make them identical, once you load that particular version of the software.
Definitely just a software upload, there is so much contractually behind the scenes ( as you CY must be aware ) that common sense and railwaymen could sort out. I have no doubt there will be further changes to contracts and working practices, it is a huge change for all involved and day by day there are discussions and improvements to cross company working, although, as with any new contract, there is the occasional setback.

Both sides of this contract want to make it work, both sides have to abide by contractural obligations, they aren’t all being met - yet, but there are ongoing plans to do so.

The people trying to make this work (on both sides) aren’t to blame, the DfT, the government and people who aren’t railwaymen are to blame.
 

jimm

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Why would Hitachi / gwr risk it?? What is the benefit? Plenty of 9 car 802s coming on stream now, send them down instead of 800s

It's Absolutely ludicrous. Its 2019 and we seem to be going backwards? The WR has gone from having one fleet of practically identical HST's which can basically work all the GW Inter-City routes in all weathers with practically no fuss, to two different fleets of practically the same design of train that can't work together. This will cause all sorts of headaches for the operator e.g. Stepping up of diagrams when needed at Paddington (800's can not be contractually "out of place" at the end of the day or exceed allowed milage and now it seems, go west of Exeter when the sea is rough at Dawlish) where as the 802 is declared as "Dawlish Proof" and can more or less work any WR Inter-City diagram. For me, The blame solely lies with the DfT for forcing the IEP on GWR and now LNER, along with its very expensive and complex operating and maintenance agreement that goes with it. The DfT should have kept their ore out of this and allowed the operators to procure their own universal fleet of trains as they see fit, which best fits their operating requirements and passenger needs. The IEP has been a "balls up" from start to delivery and beyond. What ever happened to common sense in the Railway Industry?

Unless I have missed it, we have yet to hear what might have happened yesterday, which presumably is still being investigated.

Just because it was an 800 yesterday, doesn't mean that an 802 might have problems on another day, does it?

No one has ever declared an 802, or an 800 come to that, to be 'Dawlish-proof' - like I said, the technical specification for that the IEP required the design to take account of the need to avoid issues like those known to affect Voyagers. In the light of what happened yesterday, they may need to revisit that aspect of the design. But perhaps let GWR and Hitachi find out what actually happened first.
 

Bletchleyite

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What ever happened to common sense in the Railway Industry?

It still exists in the TOCs that are choosing to order those units now the DfT has done the dirty work for them :)

They aren't a bad train (after all they're basically just a longer, bi-mode version of the Javelin EMUs), but the procurement exercise was an expensive joke.
 
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Unless I have missed it, we have yet to hear what might have happened yesterday, which presumably is still being investigated.

Just because it was an 800 yesterday, doesn't mean that an 802 might have problems on another day, does it?

No one has ever declared an 802, or an 800 come to that, to be 'Dawlish-proof' - like I said, the technical specification for that the IEP required the design to take account of the need to avoid issues like those known to affect Voyagers. In the light of what happened yesterday, they may need to revisit that aspect of the design. But perhaps let GWR and Hitachi find out what actually happened first.
It would, of course, be possible to build a train that is 100% Dawlish proof, the cost of that, is another matter. Any train with underslung engines is going to be more susceptible to water ingress issues than a HST with its engine enclosed and at a higher level.
 

Thunderer

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It still exists in the TOCs that are choosing to order those units now the DfT has done the dirty work for them :)

They aren't a bad train (after all they're basically just a longer, bi-mode version of the Javelin EMUs), but the procurement exercise was an expensive joke.
I agree, the procurement and management of these trains has made them the most expensive train in the world (as confirmed on ITV's TONIGHT programme a few weeks ago) - Yes they are a soundly designed concept/train, but sadly its the interior that lets them down ( The DFT is to blame there!) a friend of mine travelled in standard class on a 800 for the first time last week. I asked them of their opinion of the interior and he amusingly said, with the teak style tables and coach ends and all the grey that it was like travelling in a casket or coffin :D he said it needs more colour, more imagination and I agree.
 

samuelmorris

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Dawlish gets a bit stormy quite often and the 800s have been running down there for a while, I'm surprised it's taken this long to discover this problem - I'd like to know more about this particular incident before passing judgement.
 
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whhistle

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No - it's just that the DfT, for contractual reasons, don't want to have the same settings as the cl.802 sets.
And what are those contractual reasons?

"closed for safety reasons" is a blanket "we're trying to hide something". Whereas "closed because of a large hole" is much more informative.
 

404250

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Even Jimm must admit that 1st class is more like 1.5 class on the 800s. Absolute rip off to charge the same price as the decent 1st class on HSTs
 

samuelmorris

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And what are those contractual reasons?

"closed for safety reasons" is a blanket "we're trying to hide something". Whereas "closed because of a large hole" is much more informative.
Relaxed performance settings to reduce wear and thus allow for longer intervals between maintenance, I believe.
 

Bletchleyite

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I agree, the procurement and management of these trains has made them the most expensive train in the world (as confirmed on ITV's TONIGHT programme a few weeks ago) - Yes they are a soundly designed concept/train, but sadly its the interior that lets them down ( The DFT is to blame there!) a friend of mine travelled in standard class on a 800 for the first time last week. I asked them of their opinion of the interior and he amusingly said, with the teak style tables and coach ends and all the grey that it was like travelling in a casket or coffin :D he said it needs more colour, more imagination and I agree.

Yes, the seats are rubbish and the colour scheme is drab, but those things are relatively easy to resolve in the scheme of things. You can't polish a turd, but you can polish a piece of tarnished silverware.

On the positive side, surprising for a DfT-specced train, the legroom is the best in the business - the extra 3m have been used to space seats out rather than cram more in.
 

SamYeager

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On the positive side, surprising for a DfT-specced train, the legroom is the best in the business - the extra 3m have been used to space seats out rather than cram more in.
Out of idle interest should there be some future need to increase capacity due to demand is it feasible to add extra seats or is there some technical/performance reason why this is not not possible?
 

Goldfish62

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Yes, the seats are rubbish and the colour scheme is drab, but those things are relatively easy to resolve in the scheme of things. You can't polish a turd, but you can polish a piece of tarnished silverware.

On the positive side, surprising for a DfT-specced train, the legroom is the best in the business - the extra 3m have been used to space seats out rather than cram more in.
Agreed re the seat spacing. It was however a wasted opportunity not fitting a reclining mechanism (these seats do have that option) as is widespread on new trains across Europe these days. It would have mitigated the discomfort for those of us who don't like sitting bolt upright for any length of time.
 

Goldfish62

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Out of idle interest should there be some future need to increase capacity due to demand is it feasible to add extra seats or is there some technical/performance reason why this is not not possible?
Nooooooooo!!! No extra seats, the seat spacing is about the one thing from the passenger perspective that is right about these trains!
 

Bletchleyite

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Out of idle interest should there be some future need to increase capacity due to demand is it feasible to add extra seats or is there some technical/performance reason why this is not not possible?

I can't see why not. The trains are specced for a crush load of standees (which take up less space than seated passengers) and seats themselves aren't that heavy. Normally train seats are on tracks so can be repositioned as required.
 

jimm

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Is there something incorrect in what I posted above? If so, please point it out, so it can be discussed.

Do you know what happened at Dawlish on Thursday? I doubt it.

That the IEP technical specification required the design to take account of problems with salt water ingress is a matter of record. TS 1983 on page 24 of the document linked to below, to be precise. Along with mentions of floodwater, snow and rain. But I can't see anything about the trains needing to be "Dawlish-proof".
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...data/.../tts-redacted.pdf

I've no idea what the first class is like to travel in. I'm not a politician, so can't afford it... apparently you can. Are you a politician?
 
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Weekender

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I noticed on the Dawlish Beach Cam’s both yesterday and this morning there were several “half trains” going past.
 

FGW_DID

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As of the 10.30 update there was 6 short formations:

1x 5 vice 9
2x 5 vice 10 (800)
3x 5 vice 10 (802)

It would appear that at start of play there was insufficient units provided to cover the required diagrams hence why some are missing or formations have been split to cover a 9 car.

So yes that has provided flexibility and resulted in no cancellations. No it’s not ideal at all.

I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again: What would you rather have turn up, if you were waiting for a train: 5 coaches or no coaches at all?
 

Master29

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As of the 10.30 update there was 6 short formations:

1x 5 vice 9
2x 5 vice 10 (800)
3x 5 vice 10 (802)

It would appear that at start of play there was insufficient units provided to cover the required diagrams hence why some are missing or formations have been split to cover a 9 car.

So yes that has provided flexibility and resulted in no cancellations. No it’s not ideal at all.

I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again: What would you rather have turn up, if you were waiting for a train: 5 coaches or no coaches at all?

I don`t like it but in this instance I have to concur. Especially bearing in mind current weather conditions and wanting to get home. I`d happily stand from Paddington to Penzance if there was no other way.
 
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