GWR fleet procurement

[RPI]

Apologies if this has popped up elsewhere, I have looked and couldn't find it mentioned.
Today in an internal communication at work (GWR) Mark Hopwood mentioned that rail media had reported on GWR's proposed procurement of additional stock, he went on to say that this would be to bolster the existing fleet to run the current timetable more reliably (not exact words but you get the gist).
I can't seem to find anything about this online and the internal document didn't go into more detail, have I missed something? I obviously can't link to this document as it's internal, but as Mark mentions that it has been reported in the media I'm assuming it's public information, does anyone know any details or point me to where I can find it?

Cheers.

 

[CarrotPie]

Apologies if this has popped up elsewhere, I have looked and couldn't find it mentioned.
Today in an internal communication at work (GWR) Mark Hopwood mentioned that rail media had reported on GWR's proposed procurement of additional stock, he went on to say that this would be to bolster the existing fleet to run the current timetable more reliably (not exact words but you get the gist).
I can't seem to find anything about this online and the internal document didn't go into more detail, have I missed something? I obviously can't link to this document as it's internal, but as Mark mentions that it has been reported in the media I'm assuming it's public information, does anyone know any details or point me to where I can find it?

Cheers.

I assume this isn't Project Churchward then?

 

[RPI]

I assume this isn't Project Churchward then?

That was a fleet replacement though, this hinted at being more immediate to overcome the current fleet issues and constant short forming.

 

[DanNCL]

A rolling stock shortage after stock was withdrawn without replacement. Nobody saw this coming…!

 

[fgwrich]

Well, there's a nice and considerable fleet of 175s sat doing nothing at the moment and that would provide a considerable capacity boost....

In all seriousness though, nothing mentioned here in the South, yet. BBC nor ITV.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Might be likely they'd want TFw's 158's.

 

[FGW_DID]

In all seriousness though, nothing mentioned here in the South, yet. BBC nor ITV.

Part of the actual quote from MH is:

…..who read rail industry media…..

which says to me it’s been mentioned in a specialist rail publication and not in the general mainstream media.

 

[Doveymain158]

i did remember seeing it posted somewhere i got the impression that the next fleet replacement tender is for Northern 15x fleets, Chiltern stock, TPE units and then GWR replacement of 15x/16x fleets. Only thing i can recall is that they were 24m vehicles with bi mode spec which could include 750v dc

 

[fgwrich]

That was a fleet replacement though, this hinted at being more immediate to overcome the current fleet issues and constant short forming.

i did remember seeing it posted somewhere i got the impression that the next fleet replacement tender is for Northern 15x fleets, Chiltern stock, TPE units and then GWR replacement of 15x/16x fleets. Only thing i can recall is that they were 24m vehicles with bi mode spec which could include 750v dc

As above.

Part of the actual quote from MH is:

which says to me it’s been mentioned in a specialist rail publication and not in the general mainstream media.

Ah, cheers, I'll take a look around later the week then.

 

[Doveymain158]

website modernrailways dot com , you need to register for the site all info is on there.

 

[anthony263]

If GWR short of DMUs if they don't get the 175s perhaps a few class 150s from TFW when some become available

 

[Towers]

I thought it had been common wisdom for a long time that some of TfW’s 150 or 158 fleets were expected to join GWR upon withdrawal?

175s seem highly unlikely; aside from reliability issues they’re an unknown type (even any 180 knowledge from the dim & distant past would have been centred on Old Oak Common, not the “West” operations where DMUs are desperately needed), and GWR are already running two incompatible fleets side by side in the 15x and 16x classes. The 175s would be wholly unsuitable for any sort of urban/local work, and presumably self contained Portsmouth - Cardiff workings aren’t particularly feasible. The very substantial challenges of mass driver training would also be a big hurdle, alongside 80x training which is ongoing already. Can’t see it!

 

[Doveymain158]

Temporary stopgap maybe. 15x dont meet latest emission standards. Battery technology or maybe hydrogen could be a good project to repurpose some 15x fleets.

 

[Towers]

Temporary stopgap maybe. 15x dont meet latest emission standards. Battery technology or maybe hydrogen could be a good project to repurpose some 15x fleets.

Very few DMUs meet the “latest” emission standards. This is about getting trains in to boost capacity and meet demand, green credentials are unlikely to be the main priority at this stage.

 

[The exile]

If (and it’s a very big if) the Mk 5s went to Chiltern could that free up Turbos quicker than TfW sprinters?

 

[skyhigh]

15x dont meet latest emission standards.

So what? They're looking for additional existing stock to quickly boost capacity, so there is absolutely no reason emissions standards come into it.

They're not suggesting a new build of 15x trains.

 

[fgwrich]

I thought it had been common wisdom for a long time that some of TfW’s 150 or 158 fleets were expected to join GWR upon withdrawal?

175s seem highly unlikely; aside from reliability issues they’re an unknown type (even any 180 knowledge from the dim & distant past would have been centred on Old Oak Common, not the “West” operations where DMUs are desperately needed), and GWR are already running two incompatible fleets side by side in the 15x and 16x classes. The 175s would be wholly unsuitable for any sort of urban/local work, and presumably self contained Portsmouth - Cardiff workings aren’t particularly feasible. The very substantial challenges of mass driver training would also be a big hurdle, alongside 80x training which is ongoing already. Can’t see it!

That’s if the leasing co has agreed to it though. Suggestions were so far that the leasing co (Angel I believe) want’s to concentrate all Perkins powered 158s on one operator, so realistically that would mean Northern. They would also require some cab work to bring them up to standard and remove the ECTS / ETRMS, though that’ll have to happen for wherever they end up. They are also set to be the last DMUs to be released from TFW.

 

[Towers]

That’s if the leasing co has agreed to it though. Suggestions were so far that the leasing co (Angel I believe) want’s to concentrate all Perkins powered 158s on one operator, so realistically that would mean Northern. They would also require some cab work to bring them up to standard and remove the ECTS / ETRMS, though that’ll have to happen for wherever they end up. They are also set to be the last DMUs to be released from TFW.

Out of interest, what does a leasing co get out of concentrating all of one engine type at one TOC, doesn’t seem immediately obvious what difference it makes to them? On a fleet the age of the 158s all the maintenance is sorted by the TOC anyway?

 

[dutchbedford]

MH said recently one of the things being looked at is 175s. We don’t want them, but if it’s the only thing available, something is better than nothing right now as fleet availability is challenging.

Pretty sure TfWs position is that their 158s aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable.

175s would likely be sent to the West with slower line speeds, 158s/turbos sent back up towards SPM to bolster.

 

[Towers]

MH said recently one of the things being looked at is 175s. We don’t want them, but if it’s the only thing available, something is better than nothing right now as fleet availability is challenging.

Pretty sure TfWs position is that their 158s aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable.

175s would likely be sent to the West with slower line speeds, 158s/turbos sent back up towards SPM to bolster.

Why would the 175s be prioritised on slower line speeds - keep the failures down?

If the 175s were to go to GWR it’d certainly be an interesting study whether the necessary fleet and driver training requirements and their ongoing upkeep work out as a cheaper stopgap overall than retention of more HSTs would have proved - perhaps a sum the DfT might prefer not to do in the event!

 

[hwl]

Out of interest, what does a leasing co get out of concentrating all of one engine type at one TOC, doesn’t seem immediately obvious what difference it makes to them? On a fleet the age of the 158s all the maintenance is sorted by the TOC anyway?

Easier for TOC especially as regards maintenance and then engine overall contracts.

Why would the 175s be prioritised on slower line speeds - keep the failures down?

165s/166s are more useful near Bristol with 1/4 & 3/4 doors, 175s with end doors much less so.

MH said recently one of the things being looked at is 175s. We don’t want them, but if it’s the only thing available, something is better than nothing right now as fleet availability is challenging.

Pretty sure TfWs position is that their 158s aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable.

175s would likely be sent to the West with slower line speeds, 158s/turbos sent back up towards SPM to bolster.

175 with longer expected reamining lives than 150 or 158s would keep help push back the scale in the medium term required for fleet replacement.

 

[Mzzzs]

GWR may not want them but i am sure the paying public would want them.
Could say the same for mk5.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Mk5s would be lovely on the Cardiff - Portsmouth route. Not sure if there are enough of them however. And also not sure if it’s overly feasible.

 

[Snow1964]

I see this as a stopgap as needed almost immediately

Rules out TfW class 158s (not likely to be available until sometime in 2025 or even early 2026)

Rules out TfW class 150s (not likely to be available until end of 2024, depending on class 398 introduction)

221s or 222s, think we can rule these out too, as availability is likely to be end 2024 to early 2026 depending on class 805, 807, 810 entering service.

So what is available now, now in 12-24 months time.

Could be class 175, available immediately, training needed but if restricted to one or two routes would expedite training time, and allow lots of turbos to be cascaded. My guess is Bristol-Weymouth or Cardiff-Portsmouth

Class 68 & mk5 seems unlikely, only realistic route is Cardiff-Portsmouth. Again training would be needed. But personally I think they are more likely for Chiltern long distance, and a Chiltern cascade releasing some 165s

No other diesel trains available, so 99% certain will be 175s unless they are prepared to wait 12 months. But waiting 12 months, until just after an election where candidates are going to point out train overcrowding. I can't see that being a preferred choice over do nothing now.

 

[DelW]

MH said recently one of the things being looked at is 175s. We don’t want them, but if it’s the only thing available, something is better than nothing right now as fleet availability is challenging.

Of course, all those GWR liveried, newly refurbished, AC capable, 769/9s were put into storage (and are presumably still languishing somewhere) because someone decided that GWR didn't need them ...

I see this as a stopgap as needed almost immediately
....
So what is available now, now in 12-24 months time.
....
No other diesel trains available, so 99% certain will be 175s unless they are prepared to wait 12 months. But waiting 12 months, until just after an election where candidates are going to point out train overcrowding. I can't see that being a preferred choice over do nothing now.

769/9s are available now ... assuming they're still stored in usable condition.

 

[CarrotPie]

Of course, all those GWR liveried, newly refurbished, AC capable, 769/9s were put into storage (and are presumably still languishing somewhere) because someone decided that GWR didn't need them ...


769/9s are available now ... assuming they're still stored in usable condition.

IIRC they're in warm storage.

 

[Snow1964]

MH said recently one of the things being looked at is 175s. We don’t want them, but if it’s the only thing available, something is better than nothing right now as fleet availability is challenging.

That's my view too, has to be 175s (or slim chance of 68 plus mk5s) or won't be anything this side of Easter 2025.

Quite simply the growing crowding levels on some routes, and insufficient serviceable fleet, means waiting 15 months is no longer viable.

Has to be seen as a stopgap emergency strategy, blunt choice, nothing for 15+ months or 175s on limited routes.

The alternative of 769s from storage, maybe, but higher risk they won't work from day 1. Both 769s and 175s will need staff training so fairly neutral on training factor between choice

 

[DelW]

That's my view too, has to be 175s (or slim chance of 68 plus mk5s) or won't be anything this side of Easter 2025.

Quite simply the growing crowding levels on some routes, and insufficient serviceable fleet, means waiting 15 months is no longer viable.

Has to be seen as a stopgap emergency strategy, blunt choice, nothing for 15+ months or 175s on limited routes.

The alternative of 769s from storage, maybe, but higher risk they won't work from day 1. Both 769s and 175s will need staff training so fairly neutral on training factor between choice

The 769s have a more suitable layout than 175s for routes with high passenger turnover at intermediate stations (as well as being painted the right colour!)

Admittedly the reliability factor is an unknown, but Northern seem to have got their version working reasonably well now, and it was said at the time that Reading had got the GWR ones to a satisfactory level on test runs. Supposedly the main reason for not using them was that GWR could manage adequately without them, which doesn't seem to have worked out well.

 

[Lurcheroo]

As much as I think 158’s from TFW make a lot more sense, if it’s as urgent as people are saying then 175’s seem the sensible choice. They are good units. Drivers loved them at TFW. They’re quicker of the mark than 158’s and can run at 100mph and utilise HST speed differentials.
They just need people who know how to look after them properly.

 

[pompeyfan]

Hasn’t the timetable on the North Downs been changed in a way that 769s are excluded?

Could a few be based at Exeter for the Devon Metro services?

Personally I think it could be 175s on Portsmouth services and maybe Cardiff - Taunton etc.

Do 175s have any form of SDO?