GWR Loco Liveries

[darwin4975]

I have heard it said that the GWR painted all its own engines (those that it built itself) in GWR Brunswick green. Absorbed locos were painted in black. Is this true?
If so did it remain true through the war years (WW2)?
I suspect that it's not true as this would have resulted in goods eg 28XX engines being painted green. If so, is there a simple rule of thumb which explains the policy?
Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[sprinterguy]

The 28xx locos were painted green in GWR days, though the shade used by the GWR was Mid Chrome green, rather than Brunswick. Locos of most classes receiving works attention between 1942 and 1945 were painted unlined black due to wartime shortages.

This webpage, which I find to be the most succinct description of post-grouping GWR loco liveries, states that "Some of the acquired ROD 2-8-0s that were usable but expected to be withdrawn before a major overhaul [and] Other absorbed engines" were painted "Black all over except buffer plates and cases" (All other locos being painted Mid Chrome green, either lined or unlined):

Ian Rathbone Model Railway Painting

www.ianrathbonemodelpainting.co.uk

More detail, and images, of GWR loco liveries from 1900 onwards can also be found on this, and following, pages of this website:

GWR 1900–1906 loco livery

GWR loco livery from 1900-1906

www.gwr.org.uk

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The 28xx locos were painted green in GWR days, though the shade used by the GWR was Mid Chrome green, rather than Brunswick.

I've seen it described as Deep Bronze Green somewhere - is there much difference between the two?

 

[sprinterguy]

I've seen it described as Deep Bronze Green somewhere - is there much difference between the two?

Very similar, possibly to the point of being indistinguishable. Ian Rathbone states on the page from my first link:

Middle Chrome Green. This is the principal body colour. I, and most professional painters, advocate Land Rover Deep Bronze Green. It is alleged that the preserved Caerphilly Castle, albeit painted by BR, carries a true Great Western green. The colour is not, and never has been, 'Brunswick Green'.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The 28xx locos were painted green in GWR days, though the shade used by the GWR was Mid Chrome green, rather than Brunswick. Locos of most classes receiving works attention between 1942 and 1945 were painted unlined black due to wartime shortages.

This webpage, which I find to be the most succinct description of post-grouping GWR loco liveries, states that "Some of the acquired ROD 2-8-0s that were usable but expected to be withdrawn before a major overhaul [and] Other absorbed engines" were painted "Black all over except buffer plates and cases" (All other locos being painted Mid Chrome green, either lined or unlined):

Ian Rathbone Model Railway Painting

www.ianrathbonemodelpainting.co.uk

More detail, and images, of GWR loco liveries from 1900 onwards can also be found on this, and following, pages of this website:

GWR 1900–1906 loco livery

GWR loco livery from 1900-1906

www.gwr.org.uk

My emphasis.

Just puzzled; one of the periods where other railways were 'absorbed' was around 1922-4. Included were locos. of the Cambrian and M. & S.W. J. and they both had express 4-4-0 types that were repainted by the G.W... Were they really painted black? As far as the many absorbed 0-6-2Ts went, some - particularly the T.V.R. 'A' Class - were used on passenger work and it would be illogical for them to be painted plain black and, as an example, small 0-4-0Ts of G.W. origin to be green.

 

[sprinterguy]

My emphasis.

Just puzzled; one of the periods where other railways were 'absorbed' was around 1922-4. Included were locos. of the Cambrian and M. & S.W. J. and they both had express 4-4-0 types that were repainted by the G.W... Were they really painted black? As far as the many absorbed 0-6-2Ts went, some - particularly the T.V.R. 'A' Class - were used on passenger work and it would be illogical for them to be painted plain black and, as an example, small 0-4-0Ts of G.W. origin to be green.

Yeah, admittedly I haven't been able to establish whether some absorbed locos received green livery.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Yeah, admittedly I haven't been able to establish whether some absorbed locos received green livery.

Oddly, the RCTS History (written by people who saw it all first-hand) has a 'Liveries' section but it's silent on the question of absorbed locos.., but perhaps that infers they were not treated differently from native locos. Of course, there were other periods of 'absorption' such as that of the Bristol & Exeter and others westward.

Notable that the GW always described all other companies as 'absorbed' to suggest that they were mere flea-bites as far as the GW was concerned.

 

[Taunton]

My understanding has always been that all GWR locos were painted green, certainly until 1939. Obviously absorbed locos brought their liveries with them until repainted (ie not just touched up). Given that photography in those times was wholly black/white, the chance to be definitive has probably passed.

Regarding the shade of green, this just seems variable. There was no detailed ISO colour specification then, it doubtless varied between different paint manufacturers, batches even, how it was applied (and faded), and especially what it was applied over. Certainly for their brown/cream coaches the GWR mixed quantities of thinners with the paint (this can be seen in the specifications they gave to Gloucester RCW building rolling stock), where although the base coloured paint was shipped from Swindon, it ended up differently.

We are all familiar with steam locos being painted various colours, sometimes even with the wheels the same, but the smokebox being invariably black (unless with a streamlined casing). It's not apparent just WHY the smokebox was always black.

 

[Bevan Price]

My understanding has always been that all GWR locos were painted green, certainly until 1939. Obviously absorbed locos brought their liveries with them until repainted (ie not just touched up). Given that photography in those times was wholly black/white, the chance to be definitive has probably passed.

Regarding the shade of green, this just seems variable. There was no detailed ISO colour specification then, it doubtless varied between different paint manufacturers, batches even, how it was applied (and faded), and especially what it was applied over. Certainly for their brown/cream coaches the GWR mixed quantities of thinners with the paint (this can be seen in the specifications they gave to Gloucester RCW building rolling stock), where although the base coloured paint was shipped from Swindon, it ended up differently.

We are all familiar with steam locos being painted various colours, sometimes even with the wheels the same, but the smokebox being invariably black (unless with a streamlined casing). It's not apparent just WHY the smokebox was always black.

Hot ashes sometimes accumulated next to the smokebox door, which could get hot enough to discolour the paint. That probably looked less obvious on black than on other colours - and would be cheaper to "retouch" locally.

 

[Rescars]

My understanding has always been that all GWR locos were painted green, certainly until 1939. Obviously absorbed locos brought their liveries with them until repainted (ie not just touched up). Given that photography in those times was wholly black/white, the chance to be definitive has probably passed.

When it came to official photos, the limitations of black and white photography resulted in occasional locomotives (e.g. the first example of a new class) being outshopped temporarily in black, white and photographic grey. Presumably the green was applied shortly after the photographers had done their stuff.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There's some old railway paint schedules reproduced in books and it seemed to be the practice for the painters to mix up paint (possibly each morning) from the base constituents; for example, linseed oil, turpentine, oxides of iron and zinc in primers. Colours were from what I think was a limited number of strongly coloured (and unhealthy!) compounds; colours such as bauxite brown, cobalt blue, chrome yellow, presumably are named after such compounds, and 'red oxide' from an oxide of lead.. Brunswick Green was, I think, named after its place of manufacture (Germany, not Liverpool!) using some presumably secret combination of chemicals. .Possibly 'mid-chrome green' was based on another chromium compound. (Perhaps people remember the interesting and brightly-coloured liquid compounds in bottles in the school chem. lab). Logically, this would mean that there was a limited number of paint shades (because a compound would always be exactly the same shade) if there are only a few suitable compounds. Possibly paint-mixing was as hazardous in the long term as making matches or hats with the effects of exposure to dangerous chemicals taking some time to show.


I recollect reading somewhere the spec. for a railway's smokebox black and I think that this had some special ingredients to make it heat-resistant and might have been a patent product. I remember the special black paint in hardware stores for the fireplace surround and stove (can't remember what it was called - stove blacking???) which might have been similar.

 

[Gloster]

GWR Modelling says that the colour was officially GWR locomotive green and was used by Swindon from at least 1881 to 1945, although Wolverhampton used a darker shade until at least 1894. What did change was the number of coats of varnish, which could impart a brownish tinge. Between 1925 and 1930 some locos were painted in black: ROD 3050-3099 and some ageing locos are mentioned. From April (or February) 1942 to 1945 all locos, except some Kings, Castles and Stars were painted black: all locos were unlined.

 

[Irascible]

I suspect that it's not true as this would have resulted in goods eg 28XX engines being painted green. If so, is there a simple rule of thumb which explains the policy?

All green ( the shade is much discussed above ) - but not lined like passenger classes. I forget exactly what got lining & what didn't, and that also depends on what era you're talking about. I've seen Hall class ( the standard mixed traffic class ) in GWR livery with lining and without.

 

[Rescars]

I am intrigued to find photos on the Internet of newbuild Saint class "Lady of Legend" in unlined black. I assume these date from first outings before subsequent repainting in green. These photos show the background of its (her?) name and numberplates painted red rather than black. Does anyone know if this was a one-off, or did GWR locos in unlined black regularly carry name and/or numberplates with red backgrounds? I can't recall ever seeing plates with a red background on a green GWR loco. Quite a different matter on the Southern of course.

 

[4069]

Very few named GWR locos were ever painted black- probably just the surviving 4-4-0s during and after WW2. The GWR was unique among the big four in continuing to paint large passenger locos green throughout the war, although the lining was omitted. A red background to nameplates was a BR innovation, and went with lined black livery. The pre-final livery of 2999 was strictly a one-off- there were no named ex-GWR locos painted unlined black by BR.

 

[Taunton]

I am intrigued to find photos on the Internet of newbuild Saint class "Lady of Legend" in unlined black. I assume these date from first outings before subsequent repainting in green. These photos show the background of its (her?) name and numberplates painted red rather than black. Does anyone know if this was a one-off, or did GWR locos in unlined black regularly carry name and/or numberplates with red backgrounds? I can't recall ever seeing plates with a red background on a green GWR loco. Quite a different matter on the Southern of course.

Red background numberplates turned up on some lesser locos painted black by BR shortly after nationalisation. There are several photographs of the larger tanks (51xx and 72xx) turned out like this, in unlined black, red numberplates on the bunker, and with the BR "lion astride" badge. However I don't think this applied to the remnants of the Saints still around after 1948.

As numberplates had traditionally been black, this gave contrast to the loco being green overall they were fixed to. When this was changed to black overall, some contrast was doubtless still desired.

8104, bottom of page: http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-prairies.html

7221, top of page: http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-heavy-tanks.html

 

[darwin4975]

I have heard it said that the GWR painted all its own engines (those that it built itself) in GWR Brunswick green. Absorbed locos were painted in black. Is this true?
If so did it remain true through the war years (WW2)?
I suspect that it's not true as this would have resulted in goods eg 28XX engines being painted green. If so, is there a simple rule of thumb which explains the policy?
Any help would be much appreciated.

Thank very much for these comprehensive answers to my question. Much appreciated. (I still find it difficult to imagine a 28XX painted green -but I accept that they were!)

 

[Irascible]

I still find it difficult to imagine a 28XX painted green -but I accept that they were!

Dirty GWR locomotives just got progressively darker green, it wasn't a bad colour.

 

[4069]

Thank very much for these comprehensive answers to my question. Much appreciated. (I still find it difficult to imagine a 28XX painted green -but I accept that they were!)

No need to imagine it - for instance, here is 2818, now in Swindon museum: https://www.flickr.com/photos/leatherworkingreverend/6314518144

 

[Friary Yard]

I think it was the LMR who painted the numberplates red when the overhauled WR locomotives

 

[Rescars]

I think it was the LMR who painted the numberplates red when the overhauled WR locomotives

Very LNWR!

 

[Clarence Yard]

I think it was the LMR who painted the numberplates red when the overhauled WR locomotives

No, the WR workshops did it as well - Derby only overhauled the smaller Dean panniers for a couple of years.

Looking at absorbed engines in GWR days, painting wasn’t one colour - you need to look very closely at photos of clean engines if you are interested in a particular class - there are some obviously Green locos out there.

 

[Taunton]

Just to round this out, there is a complete researched article here, which describes that seemingly every combination of ex-GWR loco liveries was in use in the 1950s, including a period when red-backed numberplates came ... and went.

BR(W) steam loco livery 1948–64

BR(W) steam loco livery from 1948-64

www.gwr.org.uk