Had no idea the ticket was not valid, now I have a fine

[remaindoors]

I recently lost all my belongings on route to an important trip to Piccadilly. I was kindly given a ticket at my local station by staff to use throughout the day. I then proceeded to travel from Croydon to Piccadilly. I showed my ticket several times to staff and was allowed through the barriers. I was eventually stopped at Piccadilly as it turned out I was using a bus and tram day ticket all along. I'm not familiar with paper tickets at all. I'm not entirely expecting to win an appeal as I understand the strict "bylaw" states I must have a valid ticket. I will try and pay the £40 immediately as I don't want them to hit me with a late charge. However, could I argue that I was permitted to travel by several members of the TFL? Any suggestions would be great

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I recently lost all my belongings on route to an important trip to Piccadilly. I was kindly given a ticket at my local station by staff to use throughout the day. I then proceeded to travel from Croydon to Piccadilly. I showed my ticket several times to staff and was allowed through the barriers. I was eventually stopped at Piccadilly as it turned out I was using a bus and tram day ticket all along. I'm not familiar with paper tickets at all. I'm not entirely expecting to win an appeal as I understand the strict "bylaw" states I must have a valid ticket. I will try and pay the £40 immediately as I don't want them to hit me with a late charge. However, could I argue that I was permitted to travel by several members of the TFL? Any suggestions would be great

What exactly was the ticket that you were given? Do you have a picture of it, or at least a description?

Have you been given a Penalty Fare - and if so, by whom?

 

[remaindoors]

What exactly was the ticket that you were given? Do you have a picture of it, or at least a description?

Have you been given a Penalty Fare - and if so, by whom?

The ticket says bus and tram pass. At the bottom it says between London Victoria and London Bus and Tram.

I have a Transport for London £80 penalty fare given to me by a ticket inspector.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The ticket says bus and tram pass. At the bottom it says between London Victoria and London Bus and Tram.

I have a Transport for London £80 penalty fare given to me by a ticket inspector.

What exactly were you told when you were given the ticket? Did you look at it at all? Do you know where you were given it, and perhaps the name of the person(s) who gave it to you?

 

[remaindoors]

What exactly were you told when you were given the ticket? Did you look at it at all? Do you know where you were given it, and perhaps the name of the person(s) who gave it to you?

As I had told them my situation and I needed to get into Piccadilly, I honestly assumed to the ticket could be used to do so. They didn't say I couldn't use the rail/underground. During the day I guess you could say my judgement was clouded, I had just lost all my money, debits cards and ID and I wasn't really thinking of the ticket as trying to get everything back. Which I admit is my fault however when I showed my ticket to all the guards no one stopped me or said my ticket was invalid. I know the station and one of the names of the people that gave me the ticket, however I'm sure they would state that the ticket given to me was only for the bus.

 

[island]

It is unlikely that you have a case for a successful appeal against the Penalty Fare if you chose to use a ticket marked “bus and tram 1 day” on a service that was not a bus or a tram.

I would advise paying the Penalty Fare without delay as it will double if not paid promptly.

 

[furlong]

There are a lot of details missing here, but as island says, it's very hard to argue with any level of reasonableness that something saying 'tram and bus' can be used on anything else. You only needed to read it to realise it wasn't valid.

 

[bb21]

Did you have to pay anything for the ticket?

I don't quite understand how you were "kindly given a ticket" by staff, if you had lost all your belongings. What staff? At a ticket office? At a ticket barrier? Was he/she wearing a uniform?

 

[Franco86]

There are a lot of details missing here, but as island says, it's very hard to argue with any level of reasonableness that something saying 'tram and bus' can be used on anything else. You only needed to read it to realise it wasn't valid.

What if the OP has difficulty reading? Can extenuating circumstances be argued in this case?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I was thinking more along the lines of that if OP had specifically been given permission to use the Underground, the fact that the ticket held was for "Bus/Tram only" may not actually matter. But as always - proving this after the fact is always difficult.

I'm in two minds. On the one hand the easiest and least stressful option is unquestionably simply to pay up. But that is guaranteed to cost the OP. I suppose an alternative would be to not pay the Penalty Fare, and to then let it be cancelled and have TfL proceed with prosecution under the relevant Byelaw (I don't see that a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 could succeed, as i don't see any indication of an intent to avoid payment).

You would then contest the prosecution on a basis similar to outlined in this thread. Now, there is no guarantee that it would work, and it would certainly involve significantly more stress than just paying up now. And there is every chance it would still fail, leaving you liable to pay a fine and costs (though you would not get a criminal record) that is likely to be in the medium three figures. But there is equally a chance that it would see success.

If you are considering this approach I would suggest that you contact a criminal defence solicitor for a free consultation. Since the time to pay the Penalty Fare at the reduced rate is only 14 days from issue as I understand it, you'll need to do this very soon if you intent to do it at all. Please do not consider it a risk free option - it is an option that is risky but which potentially may pay off.

 

[najaB]

But there is equally a chance that it would see success.

To the OP: please read this carefully. There is not an equal chance of success, the odds are very much against this challenge succeeding.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

To the OP: please read this carefully. There is not an equal chance of success, the odds are very much against this challenge succeeding.

I think that is plenty clear enough from my post what the advantages and disadvantages of a challenge would be. I see there is no need for condescending nonsense such as what you have posted, unless you have a constructive point to make about the validity of the argument behind a challenge!

 

[remaindoors]

What if the OP has difficulty reading? Can extenuating circumstances be argued in this case?

I am dyslexic and have difficulty processing information, words etc

 

[remaindoors]

I was thinking more along the lines of that if OP had specifically been given permission to use the Underground, the fact that the ticket held was for "Bus/Tram only" may not actually matter. But as always - proving this after the fact is always difficult.

I'm in two minds. On the one hand the easiest and least stressful option is unquestionably simply to pay up. But that is guaranteed to cost the OP. I suppose an alternative would be to not pay the Penalty Fare, and to then let it be cancelled and have TfL proceed with prosecution under the relevant Byelaw (I don't see that a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 could succeed, as i don't see any indication of an intent to avoid payment).

You would then contest the prosecution on a basis similar to outlined in this thread. Now, there is no guarantee that it would work, and it would certainly involve significantly more stress than just paying up now. And there is every chance it would still fail, leaving you liable to pay a fine and costs (though you would not get a criminal record) that is likely to be in the medium three figures. But there is equally a chance that it would see success.

If you are considering this approach I would suggest that you contact a criminal defence solicitor for a free consultation. Since the time to pay the Penalty Fare at the reduced rate is only 14 days from issue as I understand it, you'll need to do this very soon if you intent to do it at all. Please do not consider it a risk free option - it is an option that is risky but which potentially may pay off.

Thanks a lot for this.

I had three members of staff look at my ticket and allow me to travel into London, was it at their discretion that it was allowed? There will be CCTV evidence of my interactions with the staff but would I have to give names and state that they had explicitly allowed me to travel using the ticket?

I don't want to run the risk of expensive court fines and a criminal record so I will just pay the £40. But as it costs nothing I will be making an appeal. Is it better to appeal first then pay if the appeal is rejected or pay first and make an appeal?

 

[remaindoors]

Did you have to pay anything for the ticket?

I don't quite understand how you were "kindly given a ticket" by staff, if you had lost all your belongings. What staff? At a ticket office? At a ticket barrier? Was he/she wearing a uniform?

I didn't pay for the ticket as I had no cash, cards etc..

I was given the ticket at a ticket office, I explained my situation to them and tried to pay using my phone but I did not have the right model. They gave me the ticket to help me get to my destination

 

[some bloke]

I had three members of staff look at my ticket and allow me to travel into London, was it at their discretion that it was allowed?

It may be reasonable for staff just to look at part of a ticket - otherwise it might take too long. The fact that you were let through doesn't mean they were explicitly allowing travel on trains using a bus ticket. The argument would have to be something else: that you thought the ticket was valid.

It wouldn't be sensible for staff to deliberately let people travel with the wrong ticket, knowing there is a high chance that the passenger would get into trouble later. So we might doubt there being any authority for them to allow travel, even if it was just letting someone out of the gate on a day ticket.

I don't know what a bus/tram pass looks like, but maybe attempted use of it on a train is so rare that staff just looked at another part or parts of the ticket - for example the date - and reasonably thought it was something else.

 

[najaB]

I see there is no need for condescending nonsense such as what you have posted...

The use of the word 'equally' could easily be misconstrued as meaning either outcome is as likely as the other. The OP has said they have difficulty reading, and transposing two words in that sentence complely changes it's meaning. I think they it's important that the OP is clear on their options, wouldn't you agree?

 

[najaB]

Is it better to appeal first then pay if the appeal is rejected or pay first and make an appeal?

It's better to pay then appeal as the clock wouldn't be running.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks a lot for this.

I had three members of staff look at my ticket and allow me to travel into London, was it at their discretion that it was allowed? There will be CCTV evidence of my interactions with the staff but would I have to give names and state that they had explicitly allowed me to travel using the ticket?

I don't want to run the risk of expensive court fines and a criminal record so I will just pay the £40. But as it costs nothing I will be making an appeal. Is it better to appeal first then pay if the appeal is rejected or pay first and make an appeal?

I don't think the fact that the ticket was checked and allowed (perhaps in error) is necessarily evidence of "permission to board without a valid ticket", which is the required defence here. However, if you had a conversation with a member of staff and asked "can I travel with the Underground on this ticket?" and you were told "yes", that would be a defence. Obviously, the difficulty is proving that that was said, and that it constituted permission to board without a valid ticket!

If you don't want to run the risk of the Penalty Fare being cancelled you'll need to pay it within the time stated on it, irrespective of any appeal. If your appeal is allowed then you ought to be refunded the amount paid - but as soon as you pay, I would not expect to see the money back at all. If you do, I think you can consider yourself lucky!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The use of the word 'equally' could easily be misconstrued as meaning either outcome is as likely as the other. It's important that the OP is clear that this is not the case, wouldn't you agree?

I think my post was more than clear. And I have advised the OP of the correct approach if they wish to proceed with that approach - contacting a criminal defence solicitor for a free consultation ASAP. In this case it appears the OP would not like to go down that route, so I don't see that this all has any further relevance to this post.

 

[district]

I didn't pay for the ticket as I had no cash, cards etc..

I was given the ticket at a ticket office, I explained my situation to them and tried to pay using my phone but I did not have the right model. They gave me the ticket to help me get to my destination

Which ticket office was this sorry? Victoria? Can’t see them issuing a ticket without payment as this would incur the clerk a loss, unless that balanced it using a Customer Care sundry or similar. Still unlikely I’d have thought, unless it was actually a member of staff issuing a UFN. OP do you still have the ticket in question or was it seized by the member of staff issuing you the penalty fare?

 

[najaB]

I think my post was more than clear.

And I think it wasn't. Opinions are great, we're all allowed to have and express them.

 

[30907]

Could you post a photo of the ticket, and tell us which station it was issued at?

 

[some bloke]

I sympathise with your position.

if you had a conversation with a member of staff and asked "can I travel with the Underground on this ticket?" and you were told "yes", that would be a defence.

@remaindoors seems to mean the first time the question arose was on arriving at Piccadilly, and that they had no explicit permission at any stage.

In any case, as argued above the appeal would seem to need to be based on the OP's understanding, not staff actions - for an additional reason.

It wouldn't be sensible for staff to deliberately let people travel with the wrong ticket, knowing there is a high chance that the passenger would get into trouble later. So we might doubt there being any authority for them to allow travel

An individual's information-processing style may be relevant, and seems to be the main point. TfL might think, "if you know you have these problems, is it not your responsibility to check carefully?".

I'd suggest a written appeal expresses gratitude to staff for the help (unless someone points out that this broke a rule) and asks for a refund minus a reasonable amount for the cost of the train travel.

It's up to you how long you want to spend on it and how much effort you want to put into getting evidence of long-term problems processing information or something else.

TfL might be understandably suspicious that a person might wrongly claim they were just flustered, without genuine reason. It looks like it should be an appeal for goodwill, and it might be worth keeping high up in the thought process that goodwill was already shown in the first place.

 

[remaindoors]

I sympathise with your position.

@remaindoors seems to mean the first time the question arose was on arriving at Piccadilly, and that they had no explicit permission at any stage.

In any case, as argued above the appeal would seem to need to be based on the OP's understanding, not staff actions - for an additional reason.

An individual's information-processing style may be relevant, and seems to be the main point. TfL might think, "if you know you have these problems, is it not your responsibility to check carefully?".

I'd suggest a written appeal expresses gratitude to staff for the help (unless someone points out that this broke a rule) and asks for a refund minus a reasonable amount for the cost of the train travel.

It's up to you how long you want to spend on it and how much effort you want to put into getting evidence of long-term problems processing information or something else.

TfL might be understandably suspicious that a person might wrongly claim they were just flustered, without genuine reason. It looks like it should be an appeal for goodwill, and it might be worth keeping high up in the thought process that goodwill was already shown in the first place.

Apologies if I am being dense, but what do you mean by this?

 

[talldave]

If you deduct the "value " of the ticket you were given from the £40, then what's left probably isn't worth worrying about. Pay it and put it down to experience?

 

[some bloke]

TfL might be understandably suspicious that a person might wrongly claim they were just flustered, without genuine reason. It looks like it should be an appeal for goodwill, and it might be worth keeping high up in the thought process that goodwill was already shown in the first place.

Apologies if I am being dense, but what do you mean by this?

People may invent bogus reasons for travelling without a valid ticket. So people with better reasons may have to take more trouble than they expect, in order to make a convincing case.

It looks like it should be an appeal for goodwill rather than on grounds that staff gave clear permission to travel on a train.

Staff showed goodwill by giving a free ticket.

 

[bb21]

I didn't pay for the ticket as I had no cash, cards etc..

I was given the ticket at a ticket office, I explained my situation to them and tried to pay using my phone but I did not have the right model. They gave me the ticket to help me get to my destination

Around what time were you at the ticket office?

 

[Mojo]

I suppose an alternative would be to not pay the Penalty Fare, and to then let it be cancelled and have TfL proceed with prosecution under the relevant Byelaw (I don't see that a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 could succeed, as i don't see any indication of an intent to avoid payment).

You would then contest the prosecution on a basis similar to outlined in this thread.

This is NOT how it works. If you fail to pay a Penalty fare issued by London Underground then it is treated as a civil debt and chased up by Ital/Ircas as such. Failure to pay will result in the balance increasing beyond the original Penalty of £80 through the addition of charges imposed the debt collection firm, and the possibility of this affecting your credit score.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

This is NOT how it works. If you fail to pay a Penalty fare issued by London Underground then it is treated as a civil debt and chased up by Ital/Ircas as such. Failure to pay will result in the balance increasing beyond the original Penalty of £80 through the addition of charges imposed the debt collection firm, and the possibility of this affecting your credit score.

It cannot affect your credit score until such point as they take you to County Court, obtain a judgment in their favour, and you fail to pay the judgment within 30 days. They would be in very serious trouble if they reported any adverse information to a credit agency with respect to a Penalty Fare, and indeed there is no facility for general debts (different to contractual and utility debts) such as this to appear on credit reports.

Any alleged additional charges beyond the undiscounted Penalty Fare must be based in the relevant Regulations. There is no facility in any such Regulations, as far as I am aware, for Penalty Fares to have additional charges added on for debt collection.

In any case, have you any reports of Penalty Fares being taken to County Court? It is totally unheard of; in virtually all cases, unpaid Penalty Fares are cancelled and prosecution considered.