Had no idea the ticket was not valid, now I have a fine

[Mojo]

It cannot affect your credit score until such point as they take you to County Court, obtain a judgment in their favour, and you fail to pay the judgment within 30 days.

If the OP failed to pay, as you advised, then yes it could possibly go to county court, as it is a civil debt and money has to be reclaimed. Credit scores can be adversely affected by a number of things, including applying for credit!

In any case, have you any reports of Penalty Fares being taken to County Court? It is totally unheard of; in virtually all cases, unpaid Penalty Fares are cancelled and prosecution considered.

That might be how most Tocs work (although Regulation 12 of the Regulations for Mainline railways have a specific section allowing for this to take place, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/12/made, London Underground issues Penalty fares under separate legislation). However this Penalty fare was not issued by a Toc, it was issued by London Underground who contract Ital/Ircas to manage its Penalty fares (post issue) and yes, they have hundreds, possibly thousands, of Penalty fares taken through to the recovery stage. Previously, when they handled this in house, they were cancelled if not paid, however this has not been the case since the start of the decade.

Any alleged additional charges beyond the undiscounted Penalty Fare must be based in the relevant Regulations. There is no facility in any such Regulations, as far as I am aware, for Penalty Fares to have additional charges added on for debt collection.

Says who? It is a civil debt and charges are added in accordance with the debt collection agency's own rules and policies, just as if you (say) failed to pay your credit card bill.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If the OP failed to pay, as you advised, then yes it could possibly go to county court, as it is a civil debt and money has to be reclaimed.

That might be how most Tocs work (Regulation 12 of the Regulations for Mainline railways have a specific section allowing for this to take place, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/12/made, London Underground issues Penalty fares under separate legislation). However London Underground contracts Ital/Ircas to manage its Penalty fares (post issue) and yes, they have hundreds, possibly thousands, of Penalty fares taken through to the recovery stage. Previously, when they handled this in house, they were cancelled if not paid, however this has not been the case since the start of the decade.

Do you have any source as to the number of times a Penalty Fare has been taken to County Court by TfL (or their agents) recently? I would suggest the number is perilously near zero.

Says who? It is a civil debt and charges are added in accordance with the debt collection agency's own rules and policies, just as if you (say) failed to pay your credit card bill.

You can't just sue someone for a made-up sum. Whatever it is must have some basis - either in a contract (not applicable to a Penalty Fare), statute, tort etc. Can you point out the part of the relevant Regulations that permits the issuer of a Penalty Fare to recover bogus debt collection fees?

It is a vastly different situation to owing a contractual debt, where as in the case of a credit card as you mentioned, the contract will have terms which permit the recovery of reasonable debt collection costs. In the case of a Penalty Fare, it is utterly ludicrous to suggest the debt collection agency can add on whatever fees they like, as the Penalty Fare does not arise under a contract - it is entirely regulated by statute.

 

[Mojo]

Do you have any source as to the number of times a Penalty Fare has been taken to County Court by TfL (or their agents) recently? I would suggest the number is perilously near zero.

I've no idea on who has been to County Court (why/how would I?!), but I do know that unpaid Penalty fares are processed by debt collectors who add their own charges. Here are two examples of this from our very own forum where agencies have added administrative charges, and there are countless more on here and others if you search:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-tenant-no-longer-at-address.63970/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/keep-getting-penalty-fares-for-fictional-people.60422/

I don't know why you are so adamant to keep denying this happens.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I've no idea on who has been to County Court (why/how would I?!), but I do know that unpaid Penalty fares are processed by debt collectors who add their own charges. Here are two examples of this from our very own forum where agencies have added administrative charges, and there are countless more on here and others if you search:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-tenant-no-longer-at-address.63970/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/keep-getting-penalty-fares-for-fictional-people.60422/

I don't know why you are so adamant to keep denying this happens.

There can be no doubt that attempted debt collection of PFs happens, and that, in general, debt collectors frequently add on "administrative" charges to debts they are collecting - charges which in some cases may be enforceable, but in many cases are not.

But until such time as Penalty Fares are taken to County Court I don't see it has any great significance. Debt collectors can collect away; only a Court can order you to pay.

It is only that, if you are suggesting that Penalty Fares must not be left unpaid, there ought to be evidence that they are actually followed up to Court - e.g. newspaper reports, forum threads etc. Otherwise, if they are not taken to County Court, and also not withdrawn and replaced with prosecution, how can Penalty Fares be taken seriously?

 

[AnkleBoots]

Which Piccadilly does this thread refer to?

 

[Haywain]

Which Piccadilly does this thread refer to?

The London one seems likely.

 

[Mojo]

But until such time as Penalty Fares are taken to County Court I don't see it has any great significance. Debt collectors can collect away; only a Court can order you to pay.

It is only that, if you are suggesting that Penalty Fares must not be left unpaid, there ought to be evidence that they are actually followed up to Court - e.g. newspaper reports, forum threads etc. Otherwise, if they are not taken to County Court, and also not withdrawn and replaced with prosecution, how can Penalty Fares be taken seriously?

Yes, I do know that they are, because otherwise how would the debt be reclaimed? Searching online for train CCJ there are not many but I’m not sure how I can evidence that; it’s an impossibility for me without any insider knowledge. All I’m saying is that failure to pay a Penalty fare issued by London Underground will lead to an ever-increasing debt and I don’t get why you don’t believe this.

Furthermore, the TfL Railway byelaws are created under the Greater London Authority Act 1999 (not the legislation in the post you linked to), which allows for prosecution for being inside a Compulsory Ticket Area, and also there is no guarantee that even cancelling the Penalty fare would lead to a Byelaw prosecution, as a prosecution would be based upon non-payment of the Penalty fare and not the original infringement.

 

[RJ]

Plenty of "kind" passengers hand their tickets to people by ticket machines once they've finished with them.

The details of this tale don't really add up.

 

[bb21]

The location immediately aroused suspicion in my mind.

So I think before we get too excited about various aspects of prosecution the most important thing is to establish exactly who the OP got the ticket from. I don't really believe it's from the ticket office and neither does anyone else in this thread with any experience in revenue protection I suspect.

 

[Clip]

The location immediately aroused suspicion in my mind.

So I think before we get too excited about various aspects of prosecution the most important thing is to establish exactly who the OP got the ticket from. I don't really believe it's from the ticket office and neither does anyone else in this thread with any experience in revenue protection I suspect.

Me neither - and every time ive been through East Croydon they have been very sharp on checking tickets that get rejected by the barrier

 

[Gareth Marston]

The location immediately aroused suspicion in my mind.

So I think before we get too excited about various aspects of prosecution the most important thing is to establish exactly who the OP got the ticket from. I don't really believe it's from the ticket office and neither does anyone else in this thread with any experience in revenue protection I suspect.

Exactly- almost impossible to be issued from the booking office FOC to customer if for no other reason there will be a discrepancy in the till receipts at the end of the day that would have to be accounted for and whilst in theory you could issue a Manual Fare with £0.00 cost this to would be flagged up to be accounted for. Unless you believe Booking Clerks put money in the till out their own pocket for people with hard luck story's

 

[Haywain]

The OP stated that they were going to pay the penalty fare, which seems a very sensible thing to do in my opinion. Launching an appeal against the PF would open a can of worms.

 

[AlterEgo]

The location immediately aroused suspicion in my mind.

So I think before we get too excited about various aspects of prosecution the most important thing is to establish exactly who the OP got the ticket from. I don't really believe it's from the ticket office and neither does anyone else in this thread with any experience in revenue protection I suspect.

Glad I wasn’t the only one thinking this.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm confused.
You were given a ticket by staff in Victoria, which is your "local station", to travel from Croydon to Piccadilly?

 

[FenMan]

It would be very helpful if the OP provided details of how they came by the ticket they used. Until they do, the suspicion they picked up a used ticket "helpfully" placed on a wall, whatever, near their originating station will persist.