Had to break through unmanned barriers at Burgess hill tonight

[ivorytoast28]

Tonight I decided to stop off at Burgess Hill (circa 7pm) on an off peak return ticket valid through the station. I'd never been there before and as I got to the platform 1 gateline I saw 2 girls pushing their way through, I admit I thought the worst of them and that they must be travelling ticketless.

I arrived myself and put my ticket through. "Seek assistance" nothing new there, often happens especially as using a Railcard and at a stop off en-route.. however upon looking around I saw no rail staff. There are just 2 small gates, 1 guy was on his phone but didn't appear to be staff, and a few passengers behind me exited successfully.

I looked around and saw noone, so on the final passenger, pushed my way through the gate with them. This started some minor alarm to which I flashed my ticket openly in all directors and yelled "I have a valid ticket" at any cameras. Perhaps I was supposed to use the call for assistance. I do feel guilty but also, feel I'm not sure I should have been delayed. I felt calling the assistance would have been a long delay when I had a correct ticket and could exit. Maybe those here will say the rules state I should have waited.

Anyway, 2 hours (circa 9pm) later I returned to continue my journey, from the town I realised there was another entrance more major and so I went there. Again my ticket failed and I thought "oh here we go". There was a guy sitting there this time.. though he didn't seem very interested as i notioned to him. I had to insert the ticket twice more to prove my point. He then let me through with a grunt, but he did not check my ticket and was on the phone throughout. I suspect he was left there all night and was the reason for my initial issue. All round very poor

 

[Chriso]

Southern have lots of these unmanned gatelines on their network. At Burgess Hil there is generally one member of staff on the main entrance gateline with the two side ones operated remotely.

The correct procedure is to use the help point and show your ticket to the camera who when answered will check validity and open the gate.

In reality they are popular with fare evaders as they just push through the wide gate knowing no one will bother pulling them up for it.

 

[ivorytoast28]

Southern have lots of these unmanned gatelines on their network. At Burgess Hil there is generally one member of staff on the main entrance gateline with the two side ones operated remotely.

The correct procedure is to use the help point and show your ticket to the camera who when answered will check validity and open the gate.

In reality they are popular with fare evaders as they just push through the wide gate knowing no one will bother pulling them up for it.

So being unmanned is totally fine? In which case surely there should be a sign saying as much. The only help point I saw was the standard one found at every station that connects to somewhere central at national rail/india

If it had been as simple as, "call up to the guy on the desk here at this station" maybe I'd have done it but there was no indication that was the case

 

[theironroad]

So being unmanned is totally fine? In which case surely there should be a sign saying as much. The only help point I saw was the standard one found at every station that connects to somewhere central at national rail/india

If it had been as simple as, "call up to the guy on the desk here at this station" maybe I'd have done it but there was no indication that was the case

Why should it matter whether "the guy" is at "this station" or anywhere else in the world?

Present your ticket to the help point camera and you'll be let through.

 

[AlterEgo]

If the station really is unmanned nobody is going to catch you pushing through the gate anyway.

 

[Samzino]

Why should it matter whether "the guy" is at "this station" or anywhere else in the world?

Present your ticket to the help point camera and you'll be let through.

Not every passenger will have the thought of mind to do so is the issue. Also unmanned Gates should truly be left open. If someone were to get stuck in the narrow gate they'd be in for a squeeze with possibly no one to respond to it. It isn't a surprise how many people fail to use the right size gate based on if they have children, luggage, shopping, buggy etc. All a trap hazard.

 

[43066]

Southern have lots of these unmanned gatelines on their network. At Burgess Hil there is generally one member of staff on the main entrance gateline with the two side ones operated remotely.

The correct procedure is to use the help point and show your ticket to the camera who when answered will check validity and open the gate.

In reality they are popular with fare evaders as they just push through the wide gate knowing no one will bother pulling them up for it.

I must say I’m surprised by that as I’d understood gates were always required to be manned if closed. I can see why people used to LU gatelines, or those at large London terminals, would find it confusing and expect to find a member of staff in attendance.

 

[JonathanH]

If the station really is unmanned nobody is going to catch you pushing through the gate anyway.

CCTV is in place at all gatelines, and could be used to identify people routinely pushing though a gateline.

I must say I’m surprised by that as I’d understood gates were always required to be manned if closed.

Yes, but the requirement is only to have an attendant at one set of barriers. Other barriers can be remotely monitored. Many Southern stations are set up like this.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Usually when I'm at Burgess Hill (weekend afternoons), the ticket barriers are only in operation in the main entrance. The ticket barriers at the side entrances on each plaform are left open.

 

[AlterEgo]

CCTV is in place at all gatelines.

What are they going to do about it when they see a person pushing through the gates on CCTV? Call the police? Ghostbusters? (this would be more likely than the police)

 

[Samzino]

What are they going to do about it when they see a person pushing through the gates on CCTV? Call the police? Ghostbusters? (this would be more likely than the police)

Usually repeat offenders are passed down to btp or revenue who would have a history to follow, rather than one pushing.

Usually if caught would be a straight court case.

 

[ivorytoast28]

Why should it matter whether "the guy" is at "this station" or anywhere else in the world?

Present your ticket to the help point camera and you'll be let through.

Well I had no idea help points had cameras for starters... I knew of general cctv but not something that could scan a ticket. So a guy at the station could walk over and assist.. a guy in india could not...

Given the ridiculous amount of useless announcements and signposts the railway has perhaps instructions on how to do these things (if indeed we're supposed to) could be included rather than threats of prosecution and see say it sorted..

If the station really is unmanned nobody is going to catch you pushing through the gate anyway.

But cameras do exist.. not really ideal to be looking like a fare evader.. and what if it is someone less mobile? I'd never been in this situation before and tried pushing the gate and got nowhere and didn't want to be overly forceful to try, had to follow someone through

Not every passenger will have the thought of mind to do so is the issue. Also unmanned Gates should truly be left open. If someone were to get stuck in the narrow gate they'd be in for a squeeze with possibly no one to respond to it. It isn't a surprise how many people fail to use the right size gate based on if they have children, luggage, shopping, buggy etc. All a trap hazard.

Exactly. I thought it was mandatory to have each gateline manned

I must say I’m surprised by that as I’d understood gates were always required to be manned if closed. I can see why people used to LU gatelines, or those at large London terminals, would find it confusing and expect to find a member of staff in attendance.

Indeed. I had no idea. I made this post assuming it was an error to have left it unmanned. Can't believe that is actual policy

 

[Vexed]

Attached is a photo from Wikipedia of the side gate on platform 1 at Burgess Hill, taken by David Wheatley within the last year. On the right it shows a rather bland grey help point with a label saying help point near ground level, where few people would look so it is easy to miss. It seems stupid to have it so low down but there is wording saying assistance further up where the button is, but the text is quite small so also inconspicuous, especially if you're in a rush.

I haven't used this one but I have used one at another GTR station (the design is standard) and there is a camera at chest level where you can show the ticket. It was answered in seconds by someone on the main gateline and they remotely opened the gate.

 

[infobleep]

Usually when I'm at Burgess Hill (weekend afternoons), the ticket barriers are only in operation in the main entrance. The ticket barriers at the side entrances on each plaform are left open.

There are times I've been through Burgess Hill when the side barriers seem to be closed and the main entrance is not manned with the gates open. This would be around 19:10-19:20 on a Monday evening. It may have been a one off.

 

[norbitonflyer]

You can't rely on anyone answering the Help Point. They are rarely answered in my experience. (Most recently at Harrietsham where I was trying to report a malfunctioning ticket machine)

 

[Bluejays]

Bit of a frustration of mine is when these unmanned gates are set to reject Railcards. If there aren't staff present, then I think the gates should really be set to open with any possible valid ticket.

As a previous poster has mentioned. The help point shown isn't one that goes through to a call centre. It's a camera one that would generally be operated by staff over at the main gateline.

 

[LowLevel]

I must say I’m surprised by that as I’d understood gates were always required to be manned if closed. I can see why people used to LU gatelines, or those at large London terminals, would find it confusing and expect to find a member of staff in attendance.

They can be remotely monitored, they just have to be able to be released immediately from a control point in an emergency.

Best example I'm familiar with is Leicester where there's 3 sets of gates, the main entrance, car park and lift bridge and they're all monitored from the main gateline.

 

[Iskra]

CCTV is in place at all gatelines, and could be used to identify people routinely pushing though a gateline.


Yes, but the requirement is only to have an attendant at one set of barriers. Other barriers can be remotely monitored. Many Southern stations are set up like this.

And what crime is being committed if they hold a valid ticket?

Usually repeat offenders are passed down to btp or revenue who would have a history to follow, rather than one pushing.

Usually if caught would be a straight court case.

If you force/jump an unmanned gateline, but hold a valid ticket, what is the crime?

 

[Watershed]

And what crime is being committed if they hold a valid ticket?

Railway Byelaw 9(2):

Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or an automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the barrier in the correct manner

 

[Iskra]

Railway Byelaw 9(2):

Thanks!

The question formed before it was pointed out that the camera linked to the station gateline controller, rather than an Indian call centre.

 

[Somewhere]

Railway Byelaw 9(2):

But would be funny if revenue/BTP laid in wait for someone who actually had a valid ticket!
Can someone be held accountable an offence if the byelaw isn't actually posted anywhere? If the helppoint isn't obvious, neither will the byelaw be
And is there actually a penalty or punishment for pushing through a gate with a valid ticket?

 

[dk1]

They’ll be a (wo)man hunt across West Sussex as I type with every available police officer assigned to the case

 

[Iskra]

But would be funny if revenue/BTP laid in wait for someone who actually had a valid ticket!
Can someone be held accountable an offence if the byelaw isn't actually posted anywhere? If the helppoint isn't obvious, neither will the byelaw be
And is there actually a penalty or punishment for pushing through a gate with a valid ticket?

I’m not sure if it’s a strict liability offence or not, but if not I think just saying you panicked, felt trapped and couldn’t see a staff member would probably be seen as a reasonable excuse provided a valid ticket was held and there was no damage. But, if there’s no staff around, you’re very unlikely to be caught anyway.

 

[Watershed]

But would be funny if revenue/BTP laid in wait for someone who actually had a valid ticket!
Can someone be held accountable an offence if the byelaw isn't actually posted anywhere? If the helppoint isn't obvious, neither will the byelaw be
And is there actually a penalty or punishment for pushing through a gate with a valid ticket?

As the old saying goes, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". Only a handful of the Railway Byelaws - such as those relating to first class and parking restrictions - require signage to be displayed for them to take effect. Byelaw 9(2), to do with barriers, is the law regardless of whether any signage is displayed.

The penalty for a breach of Byelaw 9(2) is the same as any other Byelaw other than Byelaw 17: you can be prosecuted and fined a maximum of level 3 on the standard scale (i.e. £1000). In reality, of course, it's highly unlikely that any such breach would be prosecuted or that any (material) fine would be imposed if the passenger were found to have a valid ticket. I'd have thought it more likely that an absolute or conditional discharge would be imposed.

 

[Snow1964]

If it had been as simple as, "call up to the guy on the desk here at this station" maybe I'd have done it but there was no indication that was the case

Shouldn't have to call if you have put a ticket in which has rejected, for a remote unmanned gate. If I remember correctly it should then trigger the camera and connect to the manned gateline point. Maybe I have this wrong but I thought they are supposed to be supervised from another set of gates, not totally unmanned

 

[Gloster]

On a related point. What would be the situation if you made a valid break of journey and used one of these unmanned barriers, only to find that the machine retains the ticket instead of returning it as you pass through? I know that this error doesn’t happen often, I have only had it once, but you might be thoroughly snookered if it did.

 

[Somewhere]

Another thing I've thought with these unstaffed barriers, is you'd think the member of staff would position themselves by the barriers when a peak train arrives, rather than sitting under the heater in the booking hall where nothing's going on, and where there is usually a ticket office member of staff also doing nothing who could assist should someone require it

 

[OxtedL]

On a related point. What would be the situation if you made a valid break of journey and used one of these unmanned barriers, only to find that the machine retains the ticket instead of returning it as you pass through? I know that this error doesn’t happen often, I have only had it once, but you might be thoroughly snookered if it did.

This doesn't sound like a likely scenario at any station where this arrangement is in use.

But, you would press the button on the barrier assistance kiosk/help point thing on the other side, explain the situation, and the person on the other side of the station monitoring all the barriers would come and help you when they get a chance to.

This arrangement is used all over the southern network and works fine. Even if it's not quite as good as a fully manned barrier.

 

[Somewhere]

This arrangement is used all over the southern network and works fine. Even if it's not quite as good as a fully manned barrier.

I wouldn't say it works 'fine'. Quite often at the unstaffed barriers, there are only two or three, in peak times often set to out only, and intending passengers cannot get onto the platform..
The reason they work 'fine' is because there's no staff there to realise they aren't working 'fine'. Out of sight, out of mind. Which is GTR all over.

 

[Gloster]

This doesn't sound like a likely scenario at any station where this arrangement is in use.

But, you would press the button on the barrier assistance kiosk/help point thing on the other side, explain the situation, and the person on the other side of the station monitoring all the barriers would come and help you when they get a chance to.

This arrangement is used all over the southern network and works fine. Even if it's not quite as good as a fully manned barrier.

I know that that is the theory, but at somewhere like Chichester there can be occasions when the Down side is unmanned and there is only one person on the Up. If that person leaves the Up to cross to the Down, then the Up side, the main entrance, is unmanned for a period: Chichester is a busy station with plenty of trains.

For that matter, I am not entirely sure if the Down side Help Point is easily accessible from outside the barriers: so you will have to stop before going through the barriers if you need to use it. This is both contrary to normal and natural habit, and risks you having to try and use the ticket twice if it is shot out just as the barriers close again.

Note: this is not entirely theoretical. I have had problems both with the ‘remote barriers’ and tickets being wrongly retained by the gate at Chichester, although the latter was on the manned Up side.