Halton Curve upgrade is on

[muddythefish]

If the journey time is indeed 3 minutes then even with a half-hourly service the line would be empty 80% of the time. And if there are any arch bridges then slewing to the centre would reduce costs of any eventual electrification. If the Runcorn end is being re-signaled then bi-di will cost less than restoring the previous layout. Don't know if the Frodsham end is being re-signaled as well.

Short-term thinking that will ultimately cost more when the line needs to be redoubled.

Same is happening on the Waverley route at present.

 

[frodshamfella]

V good news for North Cheshire, North Wales, Liverpool and Liverpool Airport. I will certainly be using it, particularly to get to Liverpool Airport, as have to regularly fly to Portugal, Brilliant.

 

[The Planner]

Even with a 5 minute SRT and a 3 minute single line reoccupation value you are going to have no problems getting trains along it.
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Short-term thinking that will ultimately cost more when the line needs to be redoubled..

I'll ask again, why does it need to be twin track?

 

[WatcherZero]

There is, of course, no agreement on what services will run on the completed curve.
At least it is in time to get into the specification for the new Northern franchise.

Funnily enough I was doing the consultation yesterday and the question 'Do you know of any 3rd party schemes have we failed to include?' I put the Halton Curve! But seriously they ommitted from the franchise descriptions all the Local authority funded schemes over the next 5 years.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Can someone tell me what advantage this long-way-round route will offer over the existing every-15 minutes electric service from Liverpool to Chester, to justify such expenditure on track and extra stock.

Direct links to Liverpool South Parkway and therefore access to LJA.
Direct service potential from Wales, Shrewsbury etc.
Possibly easier links to Manchester from stations south east of Hooton if Merseyrail put 3rd rail to Helsby.
Freight link into Liverpool and Runcorn.
Option for commuters to avoid Runcorn Bridge tolls.

 

[OxtedL]

Anyone who is worried about it only being single track, we did that discussion quite thoroughly in previous threads, for instance "Mersey-Dee the future of the curve formerly known as Halton". I took away from that thread that single track is perfectly adequate for the likely usage of the line for the foreseeable future.

The problem the link faces (and what has been holding it back) is that it doesn't really offer better journey times from Liverpool to Chester than currently exist on Merseyrail - the route around the Mersey estuary is quite a detour.

Instead it is much more about being able to run trains from beyond Chester into Liverpool, providing a 'main line' route if you like. So it's not going to be overloaded with trains.

 

[Taunton]

As most of the North Wales trains already continue to Crewe or to Manchester, there are no current trains ready to be continued to Liverpool. Are additional North Wales services really required? I'm not counting whether current services may have enough carriages, that is a separate issue.

And are passengers then going to wait for the one-in-three service to Liverpool when ALL services from North Wales connect to the every 15 minutes, shorter and quicker, Merseyrail service at Chester.

 

[Gareth Marston]

As most of the North Wales trains already continue to Crewe or to Manchester, there are no current trains ready to be continued to Liverpool. Are additional North Wales services really required? I'm not counting whether current services may have enough carriages, that is a separate issue.

And are passengers then going to wait for the one-in-three service to Liverpool when ALL services from North Wales connect to the every 15 minutes, shorter and quicker, Merseyrail service at Chester.

Network Rail ITSS, their planning tool for next 30 years envisages 2 Tph each way over Halton Curve. An hourly service to an as unspecified destination on N Wales coast and 2 hourly service to Wrexham that terminates with a two hourly service to Cardiff via Wrexham.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Direct links to Liverpool South Parkway and therefore access to LJA.
Direct service potential from Wales, Shrewsbury etc.
Possibly easier links to Manchester from stations south east of Hooton if Merseyrail put 3rd rail to Helsby.
Freight link into Liverpool and Runcorn.
Option for commuters to avoid Runcorn Bridge tolls.

This is one of twelve schemes covered in the Liverpool City Combined Authority (LCCA) transport plan that was going to be revealed in more detail in September so the timing, apart from the political motive, is curious except perhaps for the fact that according to NR the cost for the scheme is reduced if it is completed as part of the Wavertree to Weaver Junction resignalling project which is due to be completed in 2016. Presumably, the details of plan need to be fully worked and the costs incorporated to the budget etc. and this explains the surprising early announcement. Interestingly, the plan at point 7.4 f states

"Connecting via Halton Curve
Improves connectivity of the Liverpool City Region with Cheshire North and South Wales."

The full report can be read at the following link

http://councillors.knowsley.gov.uk/...trategy.pdf?StyleType=standard&StyleSize=none

This would suggest restoring a direct service from Lime Street to Cardiff via Chester, perhaps through extending an existing service which would also facilitate point in 7.4a

"Improving National Passenger and Freight Connections
Improves Liverpool’s poor level of connectivity with other major cities across the UK. Identifies schemes which will enhance the provision of routes for freight to cater for the expected increase in rail freight into and out of the Liverpool City Region."

The freight aspect is a bit of a puzzle as I can't think of a flow from the Wirral Peninsular to Liverpool which would use the link as containers would travel by the feeder vessel from Liverpool to Ellesmere Port, although I did hear a story of biomass moving from Ellesmere Port to Fiddlers Ferry but don't know if it is a long term contract. The main freight use I can think of would be the movement of steel to and from South Wales or the West Midlands to the Gladstone Steel Terminal in the Port of Liverpool, as well as aluminium and perhaps paper to various points in Wales and West Midlands all of which currently moves by road, or WCML. This would then free up capacity on the WCML for intermodal/container traffic also to and from the Port of Liverpool as the scheme completes after the opening of the Liverpool2 riverside container terminal at the end of 2015.

As Merseytravel is responsible for developing transport policy in the region on behalf of the LCCA I would have thought that developing a passenger service over the route would be on the cards, although initially a diesel service from Wrexham or Chester or even Llandudno. If Chester to Crewe or Manchester is electrified, I would suspect the line would be electrified with OHLE rather than 3rd rail, which might mean Merseyrail could have a requirement for dual voltage stock, home perhaps for some 313's?

 

[childwallblues]

As most of the North Wales trains already continue to Crewe or to Manchester, there are no current trains ready to be continued to Liverpool. Are additional North Wales services really required? I'm not counting whether current services may have enough carriages, that is a separate issue.

And are passengers then going to wait for the one-in-three service to Liverpool when ALL services from North Wales connect to the every 15 minutes, shorter and quicker, Merseyrail service at Chester.

I would imagine that any train service would stop in South Liverpool at Mossley Hill and West Allerton in addition to Liverpool South Parkway. There is a large student population residing in the Mossley Hill area. Passengers from the North Cheshire area will be able to get across the river by train without having to drive or pay the exhorbitant parking charge at Virgins Runcorn station.
The second Mersey Crossing being built means that the Runcorn-Widnes bridge will become toll giving the new passenger service a chance of success.

 

[frodshamfella]

Can someone tell me what advantage this long-way-round route will offer over the existing every-15 minutes electric service from Liverpool to Chester, to justify such expenditure on track and extra stock.

I know a number of people who would find it difficult to access John Lennon Airport from Chester area who would find this link, a huge boost. Its very around the houses now Chester via Wirral to Lime Street, change and onwards to South Parkway, and it shouldnt be, as Chester to Airport is close. Access from Helsby, Frodsham (new beechwood station for part of Runcorn) directly into Liverpool, this is not easy at present.

 

[theshillito]

(new beechwood station for part of Runcorn).

I forgot about this, though I've heard it mentioned a few times. Isn't this station supposed to be actually on the curve itself? That'll make things a bit more awkward.

 

[eps200]

As most of the North Wales trains already continue to Crewe or to Manchester, there are no current trains ready to be continued to Liverpool. Are additional North Wales services really required? I'm not counting whether current services may have enough carriages, that is a separate issue.

And are passengers then going to wait for the one-in-three service to Liverpool when ALL services from North Wales connect to the every 15 minutes, shorter and quicker, Merseyrail service at Chester.

Isnt there a stopper that finishes in chester?

Alternately run a couple marches services into lime street and extend the london Chester train along the coast.

 

[Holly]

I forgot about this, though I've heard it mentioned a few times. Isn't this station supposed to be actually on the curve itself? That'll make things a bit more awkward.

You would want to have double track at the new station.

And it would be really really nice to have electrification to either the new station or to Chester so as to allow an improved service between Runcorn and Lime Street.

 

[The Planner]

2tph in each direction will work easily on a single track even with a station in the middle, it would only add 1.5 minutes at most to a non stop service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No announcement or comment from DfT yet, or from Rail North.
Treasury announcements often take the rest of government by surprise, and have a habit of not telling the whole story.
Remember Osborne's announcement of TP electrification and how long it took for DfT to confirm he really meant York and not Leeds?
What surprises me is that we have not seen a business case, or a plan for new services over the curve.
It strikes me that George Osborne has approved this as small change from the new Mersey Bridge road project, to demonstrate a "level playing field".
With the House about to rise for the summer, it's also the season for rushing out announcements as desks are cleared.
Government-wise, nothing much will happen for the next 2-3 months.

 

[cle]

Would journey times from Liverpool to Cardiff be reasonable? There are an awful lot of stops on Marches and via Wrexham trains.

Perhaps then they could speed up the Manchester trains at the southern end?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would journey times from Liverpool to Cardiff be reasonable? There are an awful lot of stops on Marches and via Wrexham trains.
Perhaps then they could speed up the Manchester trains at the southern end?

Cardiff-Shrewsbury-Crewe-Runcorn-Liverpool would be a good 20 minutes quicker than Cardiff-Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester-Runcorn-Liverpool.
But it wouldn't be the first time faster/more direct services were diverted to slower/longer routes (eg Holyhead-Birmingham via Shrewsbury rather than Stafford).

 

[theshillito]

Would journey times from Liverpool to Cardiff be reasonable? There are an awful lot of stops on Marches and via Wrexham trains.

Depends what you see as "reasonable", so let's look at some numbers.

Cardiff to Manchester direct is 3 hours 23 minutes (give or take a few minutes depending on stops). Presumably, that's "reasonable" in the eyes of Arriva as an existing service.

To get to Liverpool, changing at Chester onto Merseyrail takes a total of 3hours 54 minutes (10 minute connection at Chester). Alternatively, changing at Crewe to get to Liverpool takes 3 hours 31 minutes (with 15 minutes connection time at Crewe).

As mentioned earlier in the thread, via Helsby takes about the same length of time as traveling via Hooton, but this only applies to those traveling between Chester and Liverpool. By having a direct service, there's no waiting at either Chester or Crewe *and* this is for long distance services after all, so no carting suitcases around Chester or Crewe is definitely a plus.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Depends what you see as "reasonable", so let's look at some numbers.

Cardiff to Manchester direct is 3 hours 23 minutes (give or take a few minutes depending on stops). Presumably, that's "reasonable" in the eyes of Arriva as an existing service.

To get to Liverpool, changing at Chester onto Merseyrail takes a total of 3hours 54 minutes (10 minute connection at Chester). Alternatively, changing at Crewe to get to Liverpool takes 3 hours 31 minutes (with 15 minutes connection time at Crewe).

As mentioned earlier in the thread, via Helsby takes about the same length of time as traveling via Hooton, but this only applies to those traveling between Chester and Liverpool. By having a direct service, there's no waiting at either Chester or Crewe *and* this is for long distance services after all, so no carting suitcases around Chester or Crewe is definitely a plus.

And via Helsby gives direct(ish) access to the Airport.

 

[theshillito]

And via Helsby gives direct(ish) access to the Airport.

So does via Crewe.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And via Helsby gives direct(ish) access to the Airport.

If they wanted to, and upgraded the connecting line between James St and Central (the original route), Wirral line trains could run through to Liverpool South Parkway and Hunts Cross.
But they would miss out Moorfields and Lime St, and require paths at Central.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

So does via Crewe.

But not via Wrexham.

 

[LDECRexile]

I travelled the Chester-Runcorn "Parli" a couple of years ago. There were six passengers, including me. Five were enthusiasts and one was "for real." I asked her why she used the train, she said it was by far the easiest way to get to Liverpool Airport from Chester, where she lived.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

By having a direct service, there's no waiting at either Chester or Crewe *and* this is for long distance services after all, so no carting suitcases around Chester or Crewe is definitely a plus.

Totally agree with you on that. There are some masochistic forum members on this website who would have every single Manchester Airport-bound passenger with heavy luggage disembark at Manchester Piccadilly then to have to drag this luggage half-way across the station to a local shuttle service to the airport from there.

I have a feeling that those forum members are secretly in the pay of the other UK airports...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Totally agree with you on that. There are some masochistic forum members on this website who would have every single Manchester Airport-bound passenger with heavy luggage disembark at Manchester Piccadilly then to have to drag this luggage half-way across the station to a local shuttle service to the airport from there.
I have a feeling that those forum members are secretly in the pay of the other UK airports...

But you will have to drag your luggage half-way across Liverpool South Parkway to find the bus to the airport, however you get there.
I use both airports, and Liverpool has some good features but generally doesn't come close to Manchester in terms of convenience or destinations.
There's no long haul, for a start.
Geography is deceptive. From North Wales, Liverpool airport is not significantly nearer than Manchester in time taken to get there.
I can see the hill above my house (Moel Famau) from the departure lounge at Liverpool airport at 21 miles as the crow flies, but it's almost twice as far to get there via Runcorn/Birkenhead.

 

[6Gman]

Can't help feeling that if the Halton Curve didn't exist it'd be a long way down any list of possible new links!

As already mentioned, Chester to Liverpool links are already in place.

Extending the Liverpool - Halton - Chester link to North Wales/ Marches raises other issues. Do they replace existing services or supplement them?

As to the airport link could I just point out that there aren't exactly crowds of people using South Parkway to access the airport off the current services, so why do we think there's some significant latent market from the likes of Wrexham, Chirk, Abergele or Bangor?

 

[ivanhoe]

I fear that we overplay the airport train connection. In respect of both Manchester and Liverpool airports, I would suggest that the car is the popular way of getting there. The Halton Curve to me is about the restoration of thru services to Wales as well as giving opportunities to citizens of Frodsham , Helsby et al. It will help the airport so long as LJL keeps its portfolio of flights but the bigger picture is more direct destinations from Lime Street and Runcorn.

 

[Wavertreelad]

If they wanted to, and upgraded the connecting line between James St and Central (the original route), Wirral line trains could run through to Liverpool South Parkway and Hunts Cross.
But they would miss out Moorfields and Lime St, and require paths at Central.

Assuming the route from Chester to Manchester is electrified with OHLE the Halton curve could form a small infill scheme, perhaps even extended to Ellesmere Port Merseyrail could operate a circular route to Liverpool via the Wirral loop back to Lime Street in both directions via suitable dual voltage stock. There could be a home for those 313's yet!
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I fear that we overplay the airport train connection. In respect of both Manchester and Liverpool airports, I would suggest that the car is the popular way of getting there. The Halton Curve to me is about the restoration of thru services to Wales as well as giving opportunities to citizens of Frodsham , Helsby et al. It will help the airport so long as LJL keeps its portfolio of flights but the bigger picture is more direct destinations from Lime Street and Runcorn.

I'd agree as far as Liverpool is concerned as the majority of people travelling to and from the airport are probably passengers on relatively short flights, some of which are duplicated from other regional airports. Manchester is different because around the airport there is a growing freight village which is multimodal and ancillary industries all which employ workers from across the region, including as far as Liverpool. Whilst many of them use cars to travel to work, there will be many working in hotels etc near the site which don't get company parking spaces or cannot afford cars and who use public transport to get to and from work.

The Halton curve will allow Merseytravel with the train operators to offer new and regular relatively cheap travel opportunities to the population either side of the Runcorn Bridge(s) particularly for those without their own means of transport. In addition it will offer the possibility of connecting Liverpool and points enroute to North and South Wales and even parts of the West Midlands that currently cannot be served directly catering for longer distance business and leisure travel to the region.

 

[6Gman]

But what does the timetable look like?