Has the UK preservation scene gone too far?

[ian959]

Firstly, apologies if this has been discussed before, but nothing came up using the search function.

Serious question: has the preservation movement in the UK gone too far?

Every time I read a magazine there seems to be another "new" preserved line that I have never heard of opening up another small section of line from somewhere to somewhere else. Every time I visit a preserved line or living museum it seemingly resembles a model railway with way more stock than it can possibly use with sidings crammed to the point of overflowing with stock in varying degrees of decomposition and degradation obvious.

How many (for instance) Class 37s do we actually need preserved? How much of the existing rolling stock currently lining sidings/storage yards/scrap yards is ever likely to have a reasonable chance of being restored to even acceptable quality static display let alone working order? How many more mainline certified locos are needed when already charters are being regularly due to lack of ticket sales or other problems?

In this day and age of aging populations, there are fewer volunteers available to do anything, let alone help out on a preserved line. Availability of funds will inevitably get less and less from governments to assist with preservation of the past (not just railways) as tax revenues decrease with the aging population. How many rich philanthropists exist who will have the ability to keep on blowing millions of pounds to save a Flying Scotsman or a Mallard? Do we really need to build "new" steam locos a la Tornado just so that we have a particular class back on the rails, when that money could easily assist preserving "real" history?

There is surely a limit to how many times the general public for instance will visit a preserved railway, no matter how good it is - and there certainly are not enough hard core railway enthusiasts to keep every preserved line viable.

Surely it is well passed the stage that new lines were stopped from "reopening" simply because they can and a more coordinated approach to preservation be adopted to bring some sanity and sustainability back into the preservation movement? We lament the fact that X class has not one single preserved member yet no one seems to really decry the fact that yet another Class Z is being preserved.

I really just wonder where the UK preservation scene is going and what it is trying to achieve.

 

[Teaboy1]

Well my feeling is no! You state that the UK population is aging with fewer volunteers.....not so my friend.....more people retiring with engineering skills and need an outlet for their energy or something to keep ones self fit and an active mind....the preserved railway scene is one of the best imaginable for the older person to keep going and give something back.
Yes funds are tight at the moment but the scene here in blighty is that places are run by volunteers and the financial side of things is kept under control by true enthusiasts not accountants who tend only look at the books. My point is best illustrated by the Lynton & Barnstaple Railway, a massive objective requiring many millions to complete but the trust in charge has only the best of financial intentions, yes all that money could have gone into shares and hedge funds. Instead it is used to buy land back and assets that fulfill the final objective.
I believe the UK scene is in the rudest of health and doing what is best for the movement. One lesson we here in blighty have learnt is that you have to act now to keep what you have, wait a few months/years and its gone...gone for ever. What is trying to achieve......probably to turn the clock back.......probably to keep thing how they were when life was a bit more sedate and the world was a slightly more happy place, etc.

Not sure what "real" history is though, how much of a newly preserved loco is original?? Some bits wear out and have to be renewed but nowt wrong with that IMHO!

 

[12CSVT]

I think the passenger figures for a lot of the gala events (usually well into four figures) speak for themselves. And as for individuals owning locomotives - no different from owning vintage cars, provided of course they have storage space while it is being restored.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

To be honest theres not alot of preserved railway opening all the time? We have got quite a few but not many new ones.

One thing I was thinking, it good preserving all these locos for future generations to see but in 70 years or so wheres the space going to be for them with the existing stock?

 

[Rhydgaled]

I like steam trains, they are great, the smell, the character. Great.

However they burn coal, and burning coal is bad for the climate. However, so is burning petrol and diesel. If by having a steam train you can get enough pepole out of their cars and onto the train, that's all well and good. However, most heritage railways actually generate car travel, with pepole coming to enjoy the steam trains but a lack access by rail (and sadly it is even harder to pursuade pepole to abanden their cars for buses than for trains).

My view therefore is the preservation scene needs to change. Heritage railways need to merge and pool their resourses to get lines built that connect to the national network and can actually serve a public transport purpose as well as a heritage purpose. To this end policy on the national network needs to be a little more relaxed, to allow trains from a heritage line to run into the nearest station on the mainline railway if the junction is not right at the station (the West Somerset Railway should be allowed to run as far as Taunton for example).

Here in Wales, I think there should be three standard guage lines, with any other standard guage heritage railway groups merged into these. These could be: Ruabon to Corwen (perhaps with some NR running to Wrexham and Bala/Barmouth) in the north, Cwmbran to Blaenavon in the south-east and one in the south-west. The south-west one is a tricky one. The Gwili railway is the obvious starting point, but should it conflict with the need for re-instating Carmarthen to Aberystwyth as a fast, modern, railway by staying where it is and extending to Carmarthen and Llandysul or move to Whitland and head out to Crymych or maybe even Cardigan? These suggestions are obviously very-long term ones, it'd take years for any of those lines to extend that far, or an NR line from Rhyl to Bala or Barmouth and the earliest we could see a modern Carmarthen - Aberystwyth railway is probablly 2030 (and that's streching it quite a bit).

 

[N Levers]

I'm thinking of starting a class 379 preservation society.... Who's with me?...

 

[SS4]

I like steam trains, they are great, the smell, the character. Great.

However they burn coal, and burning coal is bad for the climate. However, so is burning petrol and diesel. If by having a steam train you can get enough pepole out of their cars and onto the train, that's all well and good. .

Coal is much worse than both petrol or diesel and the former tends to have a fair amount of sulphur in (eventually becoming acid rain). I do not preserve engines so I do not know if they have to meet modern emissions standards or whether they have grandfather rights to run as they did when operation. Plus I can't see the engines being very efficient (coal was replaced for a reason)

I do like the sight of coal and it does suit a preserved railway far more than a diesel though! I would like to see connections to the main line (such as at Paignton)

 

[ACE1888]

Like anything you get out of something what you put into it. I think the comment about too much stock unrestored is a valid point, concentrate on what is realistically achieveable, looks poor to the 'casual' traveller unless parked out of general viewing.
At railway centres/preservation centres therefore strong management is needed and a good working policy on what the railway wants.
As usual just my opinion of course

 

[Rugd1022]

I like steam trains, they are great, the smell, the character. Great.

However they burn coal, and burning coal is bad for the climate. However, so is burning petrol and diesel. If by having a steam train you can get enough pepole out of their cars and onto the train, that's all well and good. However, most heritage railways actually generate car travel, with pepole coming to enjoy the steam trains but a lack access by rail (and sadly it is even harder to pursuade pepole to abanden their cars for buses than for trains).

My view therefore is the preservation scene needs to change. Heritage railways need to merge and pool their resourses to get lines built that connect to the national network and can actually serve a public transport purpose as well as a heritage purpose. To this end policy on the national network needs to be a little more relaxed, to allow trains from a heritage line to run into the nearest station on the mainline railway if the junction is not right at the station (the West Somerset Railway should be allowed to run as far as Taunton for example).

Here in Wales, I think there should be three standard guage lines, with any other standard guage heritage railway groups merged into these. These could be: Ruabon to Corwen (perhaps with some NR running to Wrexham and Bala/Barmouth) in the north, Cwmbran to Blaenavon in the south-east and one in the south-west. The south-west one is a tricky one. The Gwili railway is the obvious starting point, but should it conflict with the need for re-instating Carmarthen to Aberystwyth as a fast, modern, railway by staying where it is and extending to Carmarthen and Llandysul or move to Whitland and head out to Crymych or maybe even Cardigan? These suggestions are obviously very-long term ones, it'd take years for any of those lines to extend that far, or an NR line from Rhyl to Bala or Barmouth and the earliest we could see a modern Carmarthen - Aberystwyth railway is probablly 2030 (and that's streching it quite a bit).

The idea of connecting preserved lines to Network Rail mainlines is commendable, but the cost and logistics of doing so is not something to be sniffed at. Granted, one or two lines already are connected which eventually will bring some benefit to them, but when you consider the cost of a single colour light signal post, head and fittings is around £100,000 (before fitting and wiring up, so I've been told by a mate on the S&T), then you realise what a big undertaking it is, on top of all the usual expence of running a preserved railway.

To allow a preserved train onto the national network, the crew would have to be trained up and passed out to NR standards, or crews from existing TOCs would have to be hired in.... all very expensive, plus you'd have to have all locos and stock certificated with OTMRS / AWS / TPWS etc.... not cheap! Pooling of rescourse could work for some lines but against others too... who decides whats for the best in the long term...?

Must admit it crosses my mind quite often - the thought of the Glos & Warks line connecting up at Honeybourne again makes my eyes water

 

[Spagnoletti]

Another thread where posters who don't appear to be active in preservation see fit to lecture those who are about how they should run their commercial operations or direct the efforts of their volunteers.

Move along, nothing to see here.

 

[Rugd1022]

Who's lecturing...? And how do you know whether I'm 'active in preservation' or not...?

I have been in the past and probably will be again in the near future.

 

[steamybrian]

Amazing that this thread was started by someone living in Australia and I wonder if "Ian959" has in depth knowledge of the UK heritage railway scene.
Firstly the number of volunteers working on preserved railways is INCREASING. Look at most if not all Preserrvation Societies and their numbers are growing.
Secondly- the total length of preserved heritage railways now stretches to over 500 miles with further room for expansion. At present both the Bluebell Rly and Llangollen Railway are building extensions to their lines and they would not consider these plans if they did not have the resources and manpower to do it.
A far cry from 1960 when the first standard gauge lines at Bluebell Rly and Middleton Rly which we thought would be nice representation of the past era. Following the end of BR steam in 1968 who thought that funding would be found to purchase and restore 200 steam locos sitting in a scrapyard in Wales.?
The general trend of visitor numbers to preserved railways are growing year by year (there may have been an occasional year of slight decrease).
Yes-- there have been a few heritage railways which in the past have closed for various planning reasons but they have relocated to strengthen others.
The number of restored locos are increasing but as you say there are still locos and rolling stock waiting there turn. If a withdrawn loco cannot be repaired then it makes an ideal static exhibit which may attract funds to restore it again.
Not every preserved line has the money to restore connections to the Network Rail system or the huge cost of meeting Network Rails requirements to run on the main line.
Finally- There have been many critics in the past (even going back 30 or 40 years )who have said "The end is nigh" . Who in 1960 would have thought about preserving diesels?, 1960s built electrics? or any locos or carriages built in 1960s.

 

[Spagnoletti]

Who's lecturing...? And how do you know whether I'm 'active in preservation' or not...?

I have been in the past and probably will be again in the near future.

Not directed at you chief, rather the original poster and Rhydgaled's comment:

My view therefore is the preservation scene needs to change. Heritage railways need to merge and pool their resourses to get lines built that connect to the national network and can actually serve a public transport purpose as well as a heritage purpose.

Why? Preserved lines can't compete with 'real' public transport due to speed restrictions. Many lines' business models are biased very strongly towards tourists and enthusiasts, and the volunteers turn up because they enjoy what they do, include the added pressure of meeting a timetable for connections to mainline services and it might stop being fun really quickly.

The comment about the number of preserved 37s is misleading - there are exactly the number of running 37s as can be sustained by the preservation effort directed at them, and the same is true for everything else - if a group of people want to preserve something, why stop them if they have the cash, skills and enthusiasm? If they don't, well that's more spares for the rest of us.
The idea of preserving early railbuses doesn't fill me with passion but I'm full of respect for anyone who's managed to do so.

 

[Rugd1022]

Fair enough Spagnoletti, thanks for the reply

My only beef regarding preservation is with the folk who moan like buggery about things, but don't put there hands in their pockets or make any worthwhile contribution whatsoever (not directed at you by the way, just a general observation, and your last paragraph made a particularly good point ).

It's very easy for 'outsiders' (for want of a better word) to criticise a preservation group or individual owner for saving yet another member of an already well represented type, but... it's their money when all is said and done and they have the right to spend it as they see fit, regardless of what anyone else says. In recent years there's been a very intense focus on a small number of diesel classes such as 37s, simply because the means to acquire them has been available to some very passionate enthusiasts at the very moment they are withdrawn and put on the tender list, if this passion and dedication wasn't there things would be very different.

Once they're gone, they're gone for good...

 

[nferguso]

Every time I read a magazine there seems to be another "new" preserved line that I have never heard of opening up another small section of line from somewhere to somewhere else.

I don't think you can generalise on this subject.

We have just opened nine miles of railway from Duffield to Wirksworth, reconnecting Wirksworth to the rail network for the first time since 1947. We offer through ticketing with main line destinations thanks to a partnership with East Midlands Trains. However, six years ago, we were a 1/2-mile line going from somewhere to nowhere.

The market will decide who dies and who thrives. Ultimately, it comes down to earning money and that requires a combination of seling the product (the railway) and good stewardship of scarce resources (money!).

Don't ever forget that all these projects and supposedly surplus class 37s are paid-for by real people with real cash. Even before these straightened times, large grants were hard to find and hard fought-for: ultimately somebody has to put some skin into the game and money tends to follow success.

Regards,

Neil Ferguson-Lee
WyvernRail plc
http://www.e-v-r.com

 

[Spagnoletti]

ultimately somebody has to put some skin into the game and money tends to follow success.

Seconded. And on a related note, decisions are made by people who turn up, those who complain from the sidelines tend to be ignored.

 

[Mvann]

Seconded. And on a related note, decisions are made by people who turn up, those who complain from the sidelines tend to be ignored.

I agree to a point. Constructive criticism is worth looking at. Complaining tends to get ignored or rebutted. I've heard people at the N.V.R diesel gala complain about the continental rolling stock. The guy manning ferry meadows usually points out that as some of the loco's are air only braked, they can't pull the mk I stock unless they want to raise money to dual brake the coaches. As far as I know, no money raised yet.

 

[The Decapod]

I think two future trends for the heritage railway industry are amalgamation and commercialisation. I'm not saying these would be good things, but they're probably inevitable.

 

[Spagnoletti]

I think two future trends for the heritage railway industry are amalgamation and commercialisation. I'm not saying these would be good things, but they're probably inevitable.

That's an interesting point. In other industries typically you might grow by amalgamating and realising economies of scale, effectively buying out someone elses customers and improving margin by laying off staff. I'm not sure how that would play out in pres. My first thought was for the ownership of assets - the railway I volunteer at has the track, buildings and some of the rolling stock owned by a trust, with a separate operating company running the services. Given the overwhelming majority of the staff are volunteers, all of whom are trust members, a decision to merge with another railway would provoke some interesting scenes! Also you can't increase margin by laying off staff you don't pay in the first place.
Most heritage outfits are pretty commercial already aren't they? Thomas, Themed weekends, dining trains, galas, all aimed at separating punters from their money. On top of that are the many lines that run expert engineering facilities that are run as commercial enterprises.
I've no idea whether this is typical across the pres scene, there are so many lines running now...

 

[PinzaC55]

That's an interesting point. In other industries typically you might grow by amalgamating and realising economies of scale, effectively buying out someone elses customers and improving margin by laying off staff. I'm not sure how that would play out in pres. My first thought was for the ownership of assets - the railway I volunteer at has the track, buildings and some of the rolling stock owned by a trust, with a separate operating company running the services. Given the overwhelming majority of the staff are volunteers, all of whom are trust members, a decision to merge with another railway would provoke some interesting scenes! Also you can't increase margin by laying off staff you don't pay in the first place.
Most heritage outfits are pretty commercial already aren't they? Thomas, Themed weekends, dining trains, galas, all aimed at separating punters from their money. On top of that are the many lines that run expert engineering facilities that are run as commercial enterprises.
I've no idea whether this is typical across the pres scene, there are so many lines running now...

The Ffestiniog tried that with the Welsh Highland and got roasted for it when it came to light.

 

[Mvann]

I think two future trends for the heritage railway industry are amalgamation and commercialisation. I'm not saying these would be good things, but they're probably inevitable.

Can't really see any amalgamation happening except for the great central northern and southern sections, which was always the plan, and maybe the mid and north Norfolk if the orbital scheme gets done. I can see a time when some railways could form co-operatives. Comercialism will only go as far as the volunteers and members will allow.

 

[The Decapod]

Can't really see any amalgamation happening except for the great central northern and southern sections, which was always the plan, and maybe the mid and north Norfolk if the orbital scheme gets done. I can see a time when some railways could form co-operatives. Comercialism will only go as far as the volunteers and members will allow.

I suppose I was playing devil's advocate slightly, since I think it would be a pity to see the volunteer / co-operative nature of most railways replaced by rampant commercialism.

But there are commercial interests involved in the preservation movement already - railtour organisers, engineering companies and a handful of heritage lines. If something's a 'nice little earner' it won't escape the notice of money men for long.

By amalgamation, I don't necessarily mean physical amalgamation by joining heritage lines - there aren't many places where that would be possible anyway, apart from the cases mentioned earlier. I mean that lines might merge their ownership and admin, even if they're 50 miles apart, if they co-operate with each other already.

 

[GM078]

I don't think controlled commercialisation (in small doses) is neccessarily a bad thing - as pointed out some preservation groups run engineering services. If this brings in profit and helps keep skills that would otherwise be lost alive then this is a good thing. Similarly the running of railtours and charters. To keep their heads above the water most preservation groups need to focus on at least breaking even if not turning a profit. So this extent I think preservation groups do need to be run commercially on some level, in so far as generating profit is concerned, unless they are lucky enough to have a Daddy Warbucks amongst their membership. I'm aware some railways are run as a PLC, I'm not a big fan of the idea myself but again if it helps keep the railway in good financial shape then I guess that's okay.

I don't think many people do have a problem with commercialisation in the name of the cause; the way I see it the problem areas would be where lines become complete corporate entities aimed at making a profit to line their owner's pockets rather than purely pumping all profit back into the railway. To summarise, in this day and age most lines/societies need to make a profit in order to survive, but it is when they become pure (non volunteer/community led) businesses that I believe the problems may arise.

 

[Mvann]

Please remember that some of the plc railways sold shares publicly to raise funds for various projects. Also a lot of their membership are shareholders.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Railways form PLC's because they have no choice but to do so. Charities cannot in themselves trade, due to tax regulations.

Lots of misconceptions above, from people who clearly have no involvement in preservation. Everything in preservation comes down to money, and the fact that there is simply never enough of it. A professional, commercial approach is essential, in order to generate the finance that you need to pursue the "preservation" aspects. Heritage railways do not exist in a vacuum either. They have to be credible to the likes of banks, local & national government, HMRI, grant awarding bodies, etc. Again, professional, commercial management essential. Any suggestion that a preserved railway will ever line the pockets of its owners is utter nonsense. They simply do not generate enough revenue, and that is with a great deal of unpaid input.

Trend wise - well logically, there are enough railways, and locos, etc., but you cannot stop people following their dream, so some will of course attempt to start new projects. Whether we'll ever see another large scale operation (FR, NYMR, SVR, etc), I doubt, unless it attracts the kind of government funding that the WHR did. Again, in the present climate, I can't see that happening, and I'm pushed to think of a scheme that has the kind of experience behind it that that did. I suspect that the revenue will increasingly be drawn to the major lines, that are able to attract the general public in numbers. Assets, such as locos, will increasingly pass into the ownership of these lines, rather than be held by individuals, accelerating a trend that has already started.

As for authenticity, the people that tend to be most worried about that, are those that stand on the sidelines with a camera. They don't bring the money in, so not worth worrying about.

 

[Mvann]

Charities can set up subsidiary companies for trading purposes. If a railways charitable aims are the conservation and operation of a railway, then they can. It just means that any shop, cafe, bar, filming contracts etc would have to be done through the trading subsidiary and not the charity. The gcr is a plc because they sold shares to buy the track bed and also to extend the line. One of the svr share issues was to build kiddiminster station.

 

[Teaboy1]

So is the UK preservation scene a blue-print for others to adopt? Probably not as others ( by that I mean countries) might not have the same indigenous followers of things railway. I doubt that say Poland or Japan would be a country likely to host a thriving railway preservation scene because you need something to preserve for starters...! If there's nowt left to preserve, it's never likely to happen. However with a bit of luck and help, South Africa "might" just get in before its all gone into a Chinese blast furnace!

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

A classic example of a well-run heritage line is the East Lancashire Railway.

Re-opened in the early 90's it has gradually extended (but not beyond it's means) from a 4 mile jolt to a good 12 mile stretch, has re-instated its main line link, provides a positive contribution to preserved/mainline traction, recieves record amounts of visitors each year and run's well within its means.

Another is the Lakeside and Haverthwaite Railway, Cumbria. A short 3.5 mile line that can never be extended beyond that with a small collection of loco's and stock that runs plenty of good family events each year and recieves plenty of visitors. Again running on a 'smaller' scale but running well within its means.

Keep your eye on the Ribble Steam Railway, a 'new kid on the block' which has opened in the last few years which features a musuem, small collection of industrial stock and a short 1.5 mile running dockside line. 'Tornado' will visit the line next year (Spring bank holiday) as part of the 2012 Preston Guild celebrations.

 

[kylemore]

There should be more crossover between the "real" railway and heritage operations. The new Waverley line could support a daily tourist steam heritage service along the same lines as the Fort William-Mallaig steam service perhaps using a restored tank engine to avoid the need for turntables?

 

[scotsman]

There should be more crossover between the "real" railway and heritage operations. The new Waverley line could support a daily tourist steam heritage service along the same lines as the Fort William-Mallaig steam service perhaps using a restored tank engine to avoid the need for turntables?

The Jacobite has a turntable at one end only. The Black 5s run ok in reverse