Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[DustyBin]

Interesting one of my friends has a 330e, does around 150 miles a week, and has filled up twice in a year. It depends, naturally, of what type of driving you do. His 15 mile trip to the office and occasional longer distance journeys suits this car perfectly.

They’re ideal for that kind of journey, I imagine the round trip can be completed on electric? Making too many journeys along nice country roads may be my colleagues problem, that and never actually plugging them in of course.... I know my 520d could become surprisingly thirsty (for a diesel) under such conditions....

 

[Bald Rick]

They’re ideal for that kind of journey, I imagine the round trip can be completed on electric? Making too many journeys along nice country roads may be my colleagues problem, that and never actually plugging them in of course.... I know my 520d could become surprisingly thirsty (for a diesel) under such conditions....

He can charge at work, but he’s the round trip is doable on Electric on a day that’s not too cold.

 

[Irascible]

Partly because it doesn't deal at all with one of the two issues - particulates, NOx, SO2 etc in cities, which is actively killing people and many think is a cause of the high prevalence of asthma at present. The carbon issue is an issue, but it is very slightly less pressing, so it might actually be worth taking a slight hit on it to get the fleet replaced, at which point things settle back down again (a bit like the slamdoor train fleet replacement, or the very quick introduction of low-floor buses due to the major benefit).

There is the other often-ignored side of the hit to infrastructure - leaving aside the prevalence for onstreet parking in many places ( I think probably 60% of my small town residential parking is on-street or in private shared carparks ) which would certainly prevent me from going electric, the actual local electricity grid here - and if it's like that here it won't be the only place - couldn't cope with a campaign to switch in a hurry, and that's with dynamic demand management which according to my electrician is a recent change of policy to try and cope. Everyone switches here & their cars would struggle to charge overnight! ( electrician's words, not mine ) and that is also ignoring the increased demand from the national grid when we're still burning gas & oil, and still not quite rid of coal. The hit from upgrading the infrastructure which whlie a one-off is the same sort of one-off that swapping your car would be.

The benefits of switching certainly haven't been oversold - we definitely should switch away from hydrocarbons as soon as practical - but the idea we can do it all, right now is stretching credibility a bit imo.

 

[edwin_m]

Buying an EV a few years ago instead of an efficient IC might have been carbon-negative due to the amount of coal and gas still being used for power generation, but that shouldn't be the case now that much more renewables has come on stream. As they increase, overnight charging is one way of using up the "free" power they generate at times when demand from other users is low. There's also the possibility of using the batteries of plugged-in EVs as grid energy storage, paying people to send power back into the grid when needed subject to maintaining a minimum level of charge to meet the user's needs.

 

[Bald Rick]

Everyone switches here & their cars would struggle to charge overnight! ( electrician's words, not mine )

Firstly everyone won’t switch at the same time. It’s going to take another 20 years, by which time various parts of the supply network will have been strengthened.

Secondly, the actual load taken by most home charging units is 7kW*, which is enough to fully charge most EVs overnight. This is roughly the same as having an oven, washing machine, and electric hob on at the same time, and I’m reasonably sure that most local networks can take that load for a good proportion of properties on it.

Thirdly, and most importantly, not everyone will need to charge their car at home every night. Far from it. The average car does 7000 miles a year, which for a car with a 60kW battery means it will need recharging once a week at most. And of course many people, particularly those doing above average mileage, will be charging on the road - at service stations, at their place of work, at the supermarket, at the fish and chip shop in Tyndrum (to use one example). With smart charging and smart tariffs in place, it will all be relatively straightforward.

* you can get 22kW home chargers, but you’ll either need to switch everything else off in the house or have a 200A connection.

 

[Bletchleyite]

* you can get 22kW home chargers, but you’ll either need to switch everything else off in the house or have a 200A connection.

Nobody would really have need for a fast charger at home, most people would plug in overnight, so even a 13A plug one would probably be largely adequate if you used fast chargers at e.g. the supermarket while shopping or at work as well.

 

[AM9]

Nobody would really have need for a fast charger at home, most people would plug in overnight, so even a 13A plug one would probably be largely adequate if you used fast chargers at e.g. the supermarket while shopping or at work as well.

I agree. Once most users realise that fears of no charging facilities are almost completely unfounded, that will baulk at the installation cost of even a 7kW home charging point and adjust their routine to incorporate fast charges at public sites. The 13A plug-in cable will be kept for an overnight top-up or an emergency snap charge to get to a public site.
Residential power provision is provided with some diversity assumptions and adjustments to the local networks are made incrementally according to changes in demand. So unless a seismic event like everybody in a single street have a big syndicate win on the lottery rushing out to buy their first EV, a failure to supply local needs is very unlikely. I imagine that DNOs already have plans to strengthen supplies for EV home charging anyway.

 

[Ediswan]

* you can get 22kW home chargers, but you’ll either need to switch everything else off in the house or have a 200A connection.

Is anybody offering 200A single phase ? I was looking at this yesterday and the largest single phase connection I could find on offer is 100A. If you want more power, they were all directing potential customers to three phase (3x100A).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. Once most users realise that fears of no charging facilities are almost completely unfounded, that will baulk at the installation cost of even a 7kW home charging point and adjust their routine to incorporate fast charges at public sites. The 13A plug-in cable will be kept for an overnight top-up or an emergency snap charge to get to a public site.
Residential power provision is provided with some diversity assumptions and adjustments to the local networks are made incrementally according to changes in demand. So unless a seismic event like everybody in a single street have a big syndicate win on the lottery rushing out to buy their first EV, a failure to supply local needs is very unlikely. I imagine that DNOs already have plans to strengthen supplies for EV home charging anyway.

Indeed. The vast majority of drivers do a short daily commute and odd other local journeys, and an occasional long trip on weekends. If they plugged into a normal 13A socket each night, likely they'd get to Saturday morning with a full charge because they wouldn't be fully emptying each weekday day.

For those living in terraced streets with only on-street parking, an occasional supermarket trip or similar with a fast charge will achieve basically the same thing.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is anybody offering 200A single phase ? I was looking at this yesterday and the largest single phase connection I could find on offer is 100A. If you want more power, they were all directing potential customers to three phase (3x100A).

Sorry, typo! Yes I meant 300A, ie three phase.

One thing to bear in mind is that EV battery sizes will be getting larger, on average. Whereas most non-Tesla vehicles could fully charge off a 13A socket in about 12-15 hours, vehicles coming through in the next couple of years will need longer time or a bigger charge.

On that subject, I swear I’ve seen chargers with 2x13A plugs, which in theory gives you over 6kW.

 

[Ediswan]

Sorry, typo! Yes I meant 300A, ie three phase.

Three phase is one area where things have improved in recent years. Not that long ago, getting a domestic three phase supply was not easy. The only customers were owners of semi-industrial equipment such as machine tools or kilns. Now the distribution network operators (DNOs) seem more than happy to quote.

(In the meantime, static three phase converters have arrived for the machine tool owners, but that would be getting well off topic.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

On that subject, I swear I’ve seen chargers with 2x13A plugs, which in theory gives you over 6kW.

But don't put them in the same double socket, as a double socket is (in the principle of "diversity") not actually designed to take that, it's typically 20A shared between the two.

Realistically at-home charging does not need to be fast charging, unless you are a sales rep or someone similar who does hundreds of miles a day.

 

[ac6000cw]

The vast majority of drivers do a short daily commute and odd other local journeys, and an occasional long trip on weekends. If they plugged into a normal 13A socket each night, likely they'd get to Saturday morning with a full charge because they wouldn't be fully emptying each weekday day.

I agree - low-demand-period slow charging when it's parked should be able to keep a car topped up (if you have a driveway to park it on, of course).

Modern power electronics and battery technology mean we can control, store, use and move around electrical energy relatively easily and efficiently, so I think we're heading towards a situation where the electric supply demand variation will get much flatter than it used to be, with smart control of high-power but time-insensitive devices to suppress peak demand as much as possible (helped of course by more dynamic demand-based energy pricing).

I think the speed of the switch to EVs will actually be limited more by volume manufacturing capability than anything else (despite the huge investments that the automotive sector has been making into EV production).

Yes, for the car makers EV sales are in the shorter term going to cannibalise the sales of IC cars, but they don't have a choice, long term, if they want to stay in the market - and China seems to be making a serious play to dominate the world EV market, which their competitors are not likely to take lying down...

 

[david1212]

...

On that subject, I swear I’ve seen chargers with 2x13A plugs, which in theory gives you over 6kW.

But don't put them in the same double socket, as a double socket is (in the principle of "diversity") not actually designed to take that, it's typically 20A shared between the two.

Realistically at-home charging does not need to be fast charging, unless you are a sales rep or someone similar who does hundreds of miles a day.

A ring main of 13A sockets is protected by a fuse or breaker of 30 / 32A. Hence taking 26A from two separate sockets does not leave much for everything else. A kettle would overload the ring although as only a few minutes probably not blow the fuse or trip the breaker. A 3kW heater would, or at least should, after a while.

Where the building supply is 3-phase there is the risk of taking two 13A feeds from two different phases. While the charger ought to be designed to handle this any extension leads used may well not be so at least a theoretical risk.

Taking 4 miles per kWh as typical 10 hours from a 3kW charger adds 120 miles. Overall the number of people who start out full and arrive home ' on the red line ' then will travel 100+ miles the next day are a minority.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A ring main of 13A sockets is protected by a fuse or breaker of 30 / 32A. Hence taking 26A from two separate sockets does not leave much for everything else. A kettle would overload the ring although as only a few minutes probably not blow the fuse or trip the breaker. A 3kW heater would, or at least should, after a while.

Yes, true. Though if you've not got kitchen stuff on, you'd be surprised how little modern stuff uses. As a non-sockets example, my entire lighting circuit (almost all LED) with everything on draws somewhere in the region of 0.5A. Or a laptop with a 50W PSU about 0.2A. As an example, while most 4-gangs or 6-gangs have 13A fuses in them, if all you've got plugged into one is tech and LED lighting a 3A fuse would likely be just fine even with all 6 sockets occupied.

Turning the cooker on might of course cause an issue.

But in any case I think for most people a single 13A home charger would be fine. People needing a full charge daily are very much in a minority.

 

[AM9]

... But in any case I think for most people a single 13A home charger would be fine. People needing a full charge daily are very much in a minority.

I agree, - I think those claiming that they 'need' to have a fully charged car available at home are experiencing 'pre-ownership charger anxiety', or possibly using a hypothetical need as a reason for not acknowledging the advance of EVs. This clamaour for ever ready charging capability will probably dissipate once they see the cost of home charging installations any greater than a standard 13A socket.

 

[Irascible]

Firstly everyone won’t switch at the same time. It’s going to take another 20 years, by which time various parts of the supply network will have been strengthened.

Secondly, the actual load taken by most home charging units is 7kW*, which is enough to fully charge most EVs overnight. This is roughly the same as having an oven, washing machine, and electric hob on at the same time, and I’m reasonably sure that most local networks can take that load for a good proportion of properties on it.

Thirdly, and most importantly, not everyone will need to charge their car at home every night. Far from it. The average car does 7000 miles a year, which for a car with a 60kW battery means it will need recharging once a week at most. And of course many people, particularly those doing above average mileage, will be charging on the road - at service stations, at their place of work, at the supermarket, at the fish and chip shop in Tyndrum (to use one example). With smart charging and smart tariffs in place, it will all be relatively straightforward.

* you can get 22kW home chargers, but you’ll either need to switch everything else off in the house or have a 200A connection.

I was told ( in the same conversation ) that you need planning permission - at least here - to put an EV charger in, and it takes the state of the local grid into account, and they've been getting a bit iffy about it at least until smart chargers started turning up. It was at that point that the concern that the things would take too long to charge was brought up ( and yes this is an electrician thinking in terms of maximum draw, not someone thinking in terms of kinetics & actual daily energy use ). We get the occasional but growing more frequent brownout from power demand spikes already down here, enough that I've got four UPS in my flat. In a rural hilly area people are sure as hell going to make sure their cars are fully charged before they leave.

But otherwise, yes I know not everyone's going to swap immediately - but the general narrative, which is what this thread was named for, is that everyone should be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, - I think those claiming that they 'need' to have a fully charged car available at home are experiencing 'pre-ownership charger anxiety', or possibly using a hypothetical need as a reason for not acknowledging the advance of EVs. This clamaour for ever ready charging capability will probably dissipate once they see the cost of home charging installations any greater than a standard 13A socket.

I think a reasonable way to make that point, given that most EVs have roughly half the range of an average petrol car, is that you might need to think about this if you fill up with petrol daily or every two days, but if like most people it's weekly or less often then a 13A plug would be quite enough, or nothing at all if e.g. your work car park has chargers or you go to the supermarket a couple of times a week where they do.

 

[edwin_m]

I think a reasonable way to make that point, given that most EVs have roughly half the range of an average petrol car, is that you might need to think about this if you fill up with petrol daily or every two days, but if like most people it's weekly or less often then a 13A plug would be quite enough, or nothing at all if e.g. your work car park has chargers or you go to the supermarket a couple of times a week where they do.

Slightly different because if you unexpectedly need to drive a long distance you can fill up with petrol in a few minutes, but with an EV you'd have to spend half an hour or so. I don't imagine that actually happens very often in reality but people may worry about it, say if they have elderly relatives living some distance away.

 

[DustyBin]

Slightly different because if you unexpectedly need to drive a long distance you can fill up with petrol in a few minutes, but with an EV you'd have to spend half an hour or so. I don't imagine that actually happens very often in reality but people may worry about it, say if they have elderly relatives living some distance away.

I occasionally need to drive long distances at short notice and will set off five minutes early to fill up en route; as you say that’s the beauty of the IC engine. Whilst I agree with @Bletchleyite that part of the problem is psychological, for people such as myself I would need to know that I can get to my destination and be able to find a charging point straight away (and not have to go back after an hour to move my car!).

 

[Bald Rick]

I was told ( in the same conversation ) that you need planning permission - at least here - to put an EV charger in, and it takes the state of the local grid into account, and they've been getting a bit iffy about it at least until smart chargers started turning up. It was at that point that the concern that the things would take too long to charge was brought up ( and yes this is an electrician thinking in terms of maximum draw, not someone thinking in terms of kinetics & actual daily energy use ). We get the occasional but growing more frequent brownout from power demand spikes already down here, enough that I've got four UPS in my flat. In a rural hilly area people are sure as hell going to make sure their cars are fully charged before they leave.

But otherwise, yes I know not everyone's going to swap immediately - but the general narrative, which is what this thread was named for, is that everyone should be.

I’m not sure that electricians are normally the best authorities on planning law, but I can safely say that planning permission is not normally required for installing EV charging on a domestic property with off road parking.

Electric vehicle charging points: the law on installation

As the government doubles down on a zero emissions future, Weightmans’ Lee Gordon explains the current legal landscape for those installing electric vehicle charging points.

www.infrastructure-intelligence.com

A quote from this link:
“Planning permission is not required for the installation of wall-mounted electric vehicle charging points in areas lawfully used for off street parking – provided certain conditions are met.”

In fact it is soon going to be the other way round - and new domestic properties with off road parking must have an EV charging point.

 

[skyhigh]

I’m not sure that electricians are normally the best authorities on planning law, but I can safely say that planning permission is not normally required for installing EV charging on a domestic property with off road parking.

Electric vehicle charging points: the law on installation

As the government doubles down on a zero emissions future, Weightmans’ Lee Gordon explains the current legal landscape for those installing electric vehicle charging points.

www.infrastructure-intelligence.com

A quote from this link:
“Planning permission is not required for the installation of wall-mounted electric vehicle charging points in areas lawfully used for off street parking – provided certain conditions are met.”

In fact it is soon going to be the other way round - and new domestic properties with off road parking must have an EV charging point.

You don't normallly need planning permission for a charger, but the local distribution network does need to be informed that you're installing one (as you might be on a looped supply, or have an incoming 60A fuse).

As for the costs of a charger installation - quite a lot of manufacturers include a free charger, but obviously that won't apply to used car purchases.

 

[mark-h]

For those living in terraced streets with only on-street parking, an occasional supermarket trip or similar with a fast charge will achieve basically the same thing.

I think there will be a lot of people running extension cables from their property to their car. These will often be electrically unsafe and a trip hazard for pedestrians. It will also cause increased conflict with people who think that the unreserved parking space outside their house is "their" parking space.

I would need to know that I can get to my destination and be able to find a charging point straight away (and not have to go back after an hour to move my car!).

Public chargers where it is necessary to move the car away once it is charged are an issue. In areas where parking is in short supply this will be an inconvenience and leave drivers with the choice of charging the car or getting a nearby parking space. If an employer has some electric chargers then work will be disrupted while staff go an move their cars.

 

[py_megapixel]

What if there was a national network of EV chargers, and your home electricity supplier issued you with a card which you scan at the charger to have your car electricity charged to your home energy bill?
Such chargers could be installed en-masse on terraced residential streets making it easy for people to charge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What if there was a national network of EV chargers, and your home electricity supplier issued you with a card which you scan at the charger to have your car electricity charged to your home energy bill?
Such chargers could be installed en-masse on terraced residential streets making it easy for people to charge.

What if there was a national network of EV chargers where you could use your debit or credit card in that way? Er, there is!

 

[AM9]

What if there was a national network of EV chargers, and your home electricity supplier issued you with a card which you scan at the charger to have your car electricity charged to your home energy bill

What advantage would that bring over a credit/debit card?

 

[Journeyman]

What advantage would that bring over a credit/debit card?

Presumably it would be cheaper and give you some control over how much it would cost.

 

[edwin_m]

There could be some sort of loyalty scheme or something like the fuel cards companies used to issue that couldn't be used to spend on anything else, but I think most people would just pay using the normal credit card system - now even easier with contactless.

 

[paul1609]

You can pick up a 3 year old Nissan Leaf with a c150 mile range (168 WLTP) at that price point. Not everyone’s cup of tea, and a bit short on range in my opinion, but it does show possibilities.

Ive had several nissan leafs both from a car pool and on hire from Hertz. Problem is its not even a minimum of 150 miles. On a wet cold january day in M25 traffic then getting to a clear 70 mph dual carriageway it can be well under 100 miles range.

I’m not sure that electricians are normally the best authorities on planning law, but I can safely say that planning permission is not normally required for installing EV charging on a domestic property with off road parking.

Electric vehicle charging points: the law on installation

As the government doubles down on a zero emissions future, Weightmans’ Lee Gordon explains the current legal landscape for those installing electric vehicle charging points.

www.infrastructure-intelligence.com

A quote from this link:
“Planning permission is not required for the installation of wall-mounted electric vehicle charging points in areas lawfully used for off street parking – provided certain conditions are met.”

In fact it is soon going to be the other way round - and new domestic properties with off road parking must have an EV charging point.

In Ashford Kent they have a requirement for new homes to have a 13a outside plug for vehicle charging. I believe it was going to be a 7 KW but UKPN advised them that they wouldnt be able to supply new estates with that plus heat pump heating systems in most of the county.

 

[EssexGonzo]

What if there was a national network of EV chargers where you could use your debit or credit card in that way? Er, there is!

Not quite. True, there is a national network of chargers owned by many different charging companies. Same as dinosaur juice stations.

However, only some take PAYG debit card payments, i.e. you turn up, plug in, tap your card and go.

The majority require you to have an app with a credit card attached and for you to somehow (either by scanning a QR code or logging your location in the app) connect to the charging station. The app is another potential layer of failure, as well as a barrier to standardisation.

And those that do take PAYG debit cards often charge far more than those that have the app. In addition, some charging networks levy a monthly fee to allow you to get the lower unit cost.

I’ve tried an EV on three occasions, for 5 days at a time. The car was epically good but the charging anxiety it caused means that my next car won’t be an EV.

Maybe the one after that.......