Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[reddragon]

This is the point I made previously; they are still quite expensive. The example @reddragon posted was for an MG5 which has a much better range than a Leaf but is otherwise not an enticing prospect, and won’t tempt people out of their £30k mid-range German Hatchbacks (A3, 1 Series etc.) in my opinion.

It is a huge mistake today to view a legacy car makers products as a guide to the best EVs.

I have been following EVs for years and at the Fully Charged Show this year tried out pretty much every EV on the market. What I have learnt is that the car manufacturing market has been turned upside down!

The best and most technologically advanced car on the road today is the Tesla Model Y. Its construction, electricals, durability, battery and software is light years ahead of other makers with the cars produced in Shanghai being the best quality, well ahead of Germany

Legacy makers have created EV platforms to stick different brand style bodies on. Unfortunately they have not taken advantage of the lack of engine at the front to make better use of space and have largely stuck to legacy layouts and poor internal layouts. Of the many I viewed only the Skoda Enyaq felt like a good car. Also these were all very thirsty on electrons. The big surprise for me in this group was the Ford Mustang, which was probably the best laid out car I have ever been in.

VW have at least made an effort with their ID series, making good use of space but their software is far from good.

The Mercedes EQ series is outstanding and an EQA meets your description of an outstanding car.

The best manufacturers today (excluding Tesla) are Kia / Hyundai. Their cars have style, practicability and their tech is better & much more efficient than legacy manufacturers. They beat the Germans.

Like it or not, China is coming and will probably end the likes of the PSA Group (Fiat / Vauxhall etc). You need to understand that most of the tech in cars today is designed & manufactured in China, including your beloved German cars. The only step up that Europe had left is finesse is final design styling. The MG5 is equal to cars nearly twice its price whilst the finish of a 2000-2010 VW. Cars coming next year from the SIAC group and Xpeng / BYD etc will trash Japan & Europe's car industry. Sadly, they had it coming! European designers are now fully invested in designing the finish of Chinese cars. In all bat final finesse Chinese cars beat European ones.

Put aside your historical choices and look at what is actually in front of you as times have changed.

You can forget that. It isn't even worth considering it, however much better you may think it will make things, because it simply is not going to happen (beyond households reducing from 2 cars to 1 in some cases).

Reducing use of cars is the only worthwhile hope, which is why the whole "it costs 45p a mile to run a car" thing is useless, and thus "fuel and parking" is the number you need for the comparison of cost.

You are wrong and I will tell you why.

The older generations including me were brought up on the concept of car ownership giving you freedom. That reality has passed, it no longer does.

Many younger people are not even getting a driving licence let alone a car. Why would they for what it costs? And of course driving stops them using their smart phones!

My kids and their friends just 'Uber' or use the train costing them a lot less.

In a city with good bus services, facilities within walking distance, online shopping and extortionate parking costs why would you want to own a car? If in your street you have a car parked connected to a charger that you can rent for an hour you would. This doesn't work with ICE cars due to fuelling and maintenance issues. EVs don't have any of that! Also. a petrol car has a usable life of 100k miles a diesel a bit higher at 150k miles but become unreliable long before that. EVs happily just keep going with early LEAFs lasting 250k miles as taxis without an issue.

The reality is that the cost of hourly EV rental will fall below the cost of owning a car that you do not use 95% of the time. It's basic maths!

 

[DustyBin]

It is a huge mistake today to view a legacy car makers products as a guide to the best EVs.

I have been following EVs for years and at the Fully Charged Show this year tried out pretty much every EV on the market. What I have learnt is that the car manufacturing market has been turned upside down!

The best and most technologically advanced car on the road today is the Tesla Model Y. Its construction, electricals, durability, battery and software is light years ahead of other makers with the cars produced in Shanghai being the best quality, well ahead of Germany

Legacy makers have created EV platforms to stick different brand style bodies on. Unfortunately they have not taken advantage of the lack of engine at the front to make better use of space and have largely stuck to legacy layouts and poor internal layouts. Of the many I viewed only the Skoda Enyaq felt like a good car. Also these were all very thirsty on electrons. The big surprise for me in this group was the Ford Mustang, which was probably the best laid out car I have ever been in.

VW have at least made an effort with their ID series, making good use of space but their software is far from good.

The Mercedes EQ series is outstanding and an EQA meets your description of an outstanding car.

The best manufacturers today (excluding Tesla) are Kia / Hyundai. Their cars have style, practicability and their tech is better & much more efficient than legacy manufacturers. They beat the Germans.

Like it or not, China is coming and will probably end the likes of the PSA Group (Fiat / Vauxhall etc). You need to understand that most of the tech in cars today is designed & manufactured in China, including your beloved German cars. The only step up that Europe had left is finesse is final design styling. The MG5 is equal to cars nearly twice its price whilst the finish of a 2000-2010 VW. Cars coming next year from the SIAC group and Xpeng / BYD etc will trash Japan & Europe's car industry. Sadly, they had it coming! European designers are now fully invested in designing the finish of Chinese cars. In all bat final finesse Chinese cars beat European ones.

Put aside your historical choices and look at what is actually in front of you as times have changed.

Just to be clear, I've never bought a German car. I have had a few large BMWs and Audis as company cars when I've had no choice but I generally find them over-rated. I'd say BMW are the best of the bunch but some of my colleagues would disagree; I'd take driving dynamics over a plush interior which is why I prefer BMW to Audi. None of them are perfect, they are fashionable though. I'm not sure what's outstanding about the Mercedes EQA incidentally, it looks rather ordinary to me?

The MG5 really isn't equal to cars nearly twice it's price. Keeping strictly to EVs that would include the likes of the Tesla Model 3, Mustang Mach-E and new BMW i4. These cars are in a completely different league in every department. It's not just styling as you claim; build quality and chassis development are two further areas in which the likes of MG lag a long, long way behind.

You may be correct regarding the future of PSA (although the French will always buy them). I'm not sure there's much appetite in the West though for Chinese products beyond the cheap tat sold online. Of course, most of us have items manufactured in China, it's practically impossible to avoid, but they're not Chinese brands and that's the difference.

If I were to order an EV right now it would be a Model 3, i4 or Mach-E although the crossover styling of the latter is a big problem for me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the cheap Chinese tat thing doesn't endear us to buying Chinese for big, expensive things rather than throwaway £10 junk from Amazon. I certainly am not.

At the moment if I wanted an EV I would go for a Kia e-Niro.

 

[DustyBin]

I think the cheap Chinese tat thing doesn't endear us to buying Chinese for big, expensive things rather than throwaway £10 junk from Amazon. I certainly am not.

At the moment if I wanted an EV I would go for a Kia e-Niro.

I agree. Just to be clear, China produces tat because the West pays it to produce tat, they are capable of making decent stuff as well. When it comes to things like cars however they're a long way behind. I think there's an increasing awareness of geopolitical issues when it comes to China as well which will influence peoples decisions.

 

[reddragon]

I think the cheap Chinese tat thing doesn't endear us to buying Chinese for big, expensive things rather than throwaway £10 junk from Amazon. I certainly am not.

At the moment if I wanted an EV I would go for a Kia e-Niro.

That was by far my preferred choice when I went to view the various cars available. The usable space in the boot whilst on paper matches the LEAF it was actually a lot smaller in reality. There was just so much more on the MG5 for £6k less, plus 0% interest and quick delivery times. The usable boot space is also double. Only drawbacks are slow satnav and resistor heating instead of a heat pump and no pre-conditioning timer. In MG versus Kia / Hyundai it was MG that won for what I need and it has roof rails to carry 75kg, plus the length for long timbers inside

I agree. Just to be clear, China produces tat because the West pays it to produce tat, they are capable of making decent stuff as well. When it comes to things like cars however they're a long way behind. I think there's an increasing awareness of geopolitical issues when it comes to China as well which will influence peoples decisions.

China makes items to the price those sourcing it want to pay.

99% of home appliances are made in China. Recently a group wanting to find something not made in China only found a toaster made in Crawley!
All of the electronics in your cars were made in China so that old tat line doesn't play out.

For those old enough to remember in the 1970's Japanese cars & motorbikes were known as Jap Junk. Look where they are now!

Whilst in ICE powered cars, China are behind in EVs they are the world leaders to all exc Tesla.
ALL new electric buses being built in the UK are on Chinese BYD chassis and most cities now only order electric buses.

Yes China have some big issues and may start WW3 but what they are doing pales into insignificance compared with UKs past of empire building, wiping out native residents and destruction. We cannot complain at what others do when we do the same and still do it.

 

[johncrossley]

ALL new electric buses being built in the UK are on Chinese BYD chassis and most cities now only order electric buses.

They don't seem to have such domination in the rest of Europe, where electric buses are far more common than in the UK except for London. For example VDL, Ebusco, Irizar and the electric version of the Mercedes Citaro.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That was by far my preferred choice when I went to view the various cars available. The usable space in the boot whilst on paper matches the LEAF it was actually a lot smaller in reality. There was just so much more on the MG5 for £6k less, plus 0% interest and quick delivery times. The usable boot space is also double. Only drawbacks are slow satnav and resistor heating instead of a heat pump and no pre-conditioning timer. In MG versus Kia / Hyundai it was MG that won for what I need and it has roof rails to carry 75kg, plus the length for long timbers inside

Is that the estate? Looks decent but the interior a bit cheap, whereas the Kia has a German premium car type feel even though it isn't one.

The MG SUVs I find look really cheap.

 

[reddragon]

Is that the estate? Looks decent but the interior a bit cheap, whereas the Kia has a German premium car type feel even though it isn't one.

The MG SUVs I find look really cheap.

Yes the estate. I found the MG5 inside similar to the Kia Niro. Kia wins on infotainment and efficiency, but the MG5 wins on size and price. Depends what you want really.

I didn't like the MG ZS, it wallowed when driving and didn't match the MG5. They have a new model coming out next year

MGs are basically rebadged Roewe cars modified for the European market

Roewe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It gives you a clue as to what is coming our way next

 

[Bald Rick]

I mean I know you can get a Leaf with a rubbish battery and 5,000 annual mileage for about £250/month but that doesn't really float my boat.

How about a VW ID4, 200+ range, 10k miles a year, £322/month?

 

[reddragon]

This is what you can get on PCL

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Back to the original question.

It is believed that in the future that high utilisation autonomous EVs capable of 1 million miles will dominate transport within 10 years. This is not some thinktank, but big businesses like Google, Tesla, BENF and investors. It will be by far the cheapest form of transport available.

Railways would suffer significantly from this!

 

[trebor79]

This is the point I made previously; they are still quite expensive. The example @reddragon posted was for an MG5 which has a much better range than a Leaf but is otherwise not an enticing prospect, and won’t tempt people out of their £30k mid-range German Hatchbacks (A3, 1 Series etc.) in my opinion.

Actually I'm interested in the MG5 and thinking of test driving one. It looks pretty decent on paper and is the sort of price point that is sensible.

How about a VW ID4, 200+ range, 10k miles a year, £322/month?

Yes, that would float my boat. I suspect they'll be even cheaper by the time one or other of our petrol cars suffers a terminal failure.

 

[DustyBin]

Actually I'm interested in the MG5 and thinking of test driving one. It looks pretty decent on paper and is the sort of price point that is sensible.

What do you drive now out of interest?

 

[trebor79]

What do you drive now out of interest?

A second hand 208 and my wife's car is a second hand Renault Grand Scenic.
In the past I've had a Ford Escort, Skoda Fabia (from new), Alfa Romeo MiTo (from new) and various company cars.

 

[cactustwirly]

Why do you detest a car simply because of its body shape? The hate on SUVs makes the mind boggle.

UK style SUVs are convenient, practical and generally not much different on fuel consumption to a classic estate car (my Kuga for example does 50mpg average). Is it because American ones that share the term are basically small lorries?

Because they are big and unnecessary. They drink more fuel and pollute more than their hatchback equivalents.

They are also very expensive for a basic hatchback with raised suspension and a fancy bodykit.

 

[DustyBin]

A second hand 208 and my wife's car is a second hand Renault Grand Scenic.
In the past I've had a Ford Escort, Skoda Fabia (from new), Alfa Romeo MiTo (from new) and various company cars.

Fair enough, good luck if you do decide to test drive one.

 

[bspahh]

Because they are big and unnecessary. They drink more fuel and pollute more than their hatchback equivalents.

They are also very expensive for a basic hatchback with raised suspension and a fancy bodykit.

I dislike SUVs because they big tyres which mean have an enormous turning circle, so I get to wait for them to do 17 point turns in car parks. The high centre of gravity means they corner slowly. The high bodywork means I'm less likely to be able to see past them.

 

[Cowley]

We might be straying into the realms of this thread…

Vehicle discussion. The SUV vs standard types of car.

Moderator note - Split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/potential-rebuilding-of-industries-in-the-uk-post-covid-19-epidemic.204212/ You would expect a lot to be - not all by any means. Just as you would expect a lot of Renaults in France and a lot of Fiats in Italy...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[reddragon]

A second hand 208 and my wife's car is a second hand Renault Grand Scenic.
In the past I've had a Ford Escort, Skoda Fabia (from new), Alfa Romeo MiTo (from new) and various company cars.

I drove a series of vintage Vauxhall estates and was shocked a new EV cost me less.

My 1st LEAF had a range of 107 miles and realistically could not do more than 200 miles in a go. My current LEAF has a range of 150 miles & made Portugal but after 300 miles battery temperature became an issue so doing 400 miles in a day became painful as the LEAF does not have battery cooling.

The MG5 seems a damn good car and all the online reviews from the big names say it's the best value for money car around. I shall see in a few weeks I guess!

Fair enough, good luck if you do decide to test drive one.

Make sure you book, MG are reporting long queues just to get seen, but delivery is about 3 months, quicker than most.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because they are big and unnecessary.

Big and practical (and more space for batteries!)

They drink more fuel and pollute more than their hatchback equivalents.

Not necessarily if you go up an estate car model (i.e. Kuga -> Mondeo) in terms of capacity and comfort. Hatches aren't relevant as they have even lower capacity - estates are the comparison.

They are also very expensive for a basic hatchback with raised suspension and a fancy bodykit.

Depends on the specific one.

 

[Bald Rick]

A second hand 208 and my wife's car is a second hand Renault Grand Scenic.

How about a Peugeot e208, 217miles WLTP range, 10k miles pa, £289/month. In stock for immediate delivery...

 

[reddragon]

How about a Peugeot e208, 217miles WLTP range, 10k miles pa, £289/month. In stock for immediate delivery...

I was a little underwhelmed by the PSA cars but must admit inside the e208 and DS were pretty snazzy!

 

[Domh245]

The MG5 seems a damn good car and all the online reviews from the big names say it's the best value for money car around. I shall see in a few weeks I guess!

It's a very acceptable means of getting from A to B. That's not necessarily what everyone looks for in a car!

My parents are also due an (fully specced) MG5 early November and I was utterly unimpressed during the test drive* - I suspect that I'm going to miss the Outlander, but I will try and hold judgement until then


*possibly a combination of having just gone for a test drive in an Ioniq5, and the MG being a fairly well used dealership car

 

[DustyBin]

Not necessarily if you go up an estate car model (i.e. Kuga -> Mondeo) in terms of capacity and comfort. Hatches aren't relevant as they have even lower capacity - estates are the comparison.

That’s not really a fair comparison though as you’re going up a model like you say. The “correct” comparison is the Focus Estate which has greater capacity, certainly in terms of boot space anyway, and is no less comfortable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s not really a fair comparison though as you’re going up a model like you say. The “correct” comparison is the Focus Estate which has greater capacity, certainly in terms of boot space anyway, and is no less comfortable.

Matter of opinion with which I disagree.

 

[DustyBin]

Matter of opinion with which I disagree.

As is your right of course… I prefer to sit low down, plus no Kuga comes with Recaros.

 

[reddragon]

It's a very acceptable means of getting from A to B. That's not necessarily what everyone looks for in a car!

My parents are also due an (fully specced) MG5 early November and I was utterly unimpressed during the test drive* - I suspect that I'm going to miss the Outlander, but I will try and hold judgement until then


*possibly a combination of having just gone for a test drive in an Ioniq5, and the MG being a fairly well used dealership car

Have been in the Ioniq 5, most cars are not impressing afterwards!

You have to remember though, an equally spec'd MG5 is around half the price on the IONIQ 5

 

[Bikeman78]

Given that all other forms of illegal parking - yellow lines, pavements, double parking on narrow roads, near junctions, are rarely punished your number 2 is not really useful.

I don't think that Cardiff has any traffic wardens (or parking enforcement officers as they like to call them now) any more. I haven't seen one for years and, as you say, people don't think twice about parking on double yellows. Ironically lots of them are worn away because they have been parked on so much!

One possible advantage of electric cars is that more people might actually park on their drives rather than dump the vehicle on the pavement out the front.

 

[gg1]

That’s not really a fair comparison though as you’re going up a model like you say. The “correct” comparison is the Focus Estate which has greater capacity, certainly in terms of boot space anyway, and is no less comfortable.

Getting into and out of a regular height car is considerably more difficult and less comfortable than an SUV if you happen to have knee problems.

 

[AM9]

Getting into and out of a regular height car is considerably more difficult and less comfortable than an SUV if you happen to have knee problems.

There's always the people mover car option. You don't need all the 'all terrain' look to get an easier boarding and alighting solution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's always the people mover car option. You don't need all the 'all terrain' look to get an easier boarding and alighting solution.

The style and decoration of a car's body is very much in the eye of the beholder. I personally think SUVs look better than MPVs and many others do too. You might not like the look of them, but there is no wider societal reason to choose one or the other in most cases.