Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Bletchleyite]

Even at the higher rate of 2.3% per year that's still going to give you 80% charge on a 10 year old car.

Given that most ICE cars are getting too the point where they'll need things like Cam belts, clutches and other fairly high value fixes at about that sort of time, it's not likely that it's going to put too many people off ownership, even if they have to fix some cells to retain a higher range.

Or you'll just resell as a "runaround", which is what people do with ICEs as well. For that purpose even a 25% range on a 200 mile range car (for example) would be fine, at least for those who have driveways and overnight charging capacity, which is going to be a significant proportion of two-car households. Most small second runarounds do at most 10-20 miles daily, many far less.

In terms of how reliable EVs can be, look at milk floats, they just keep going despite being worked hard daily.

So what all that points to is "non-issue"

 

[johncrossley]

In central/eastern Europe, trolleybuses dating back to before the end of communism are still in operation, or were in operation until a few years ago.

 

[DelW]

But they seem to have mostly made the old cars bigger without replacement. The Ka is now big and the Adam no longer exists. Families are getting smaller all the time, so can't see the logic here.

Size inflation, at least for small cars, is partly driven by safety legislation and crash test results. Crushable zones front and rear, side impact bars and limits on how much side impacts can intrude into occupants' space, room for multiple airbags and their inflation systems, increased clearance between bonnet and engine to mitigate pedestrian impact, all tend to push car sizes upward.
The days of cars like the original Mini, when you could buy a new car and sit in it with only a 2mm thick sheet of steel between you and a lorry alongside, are long gone. You can of course still buy an old one and do that, but I think I'd be quite nervous driving it in modern traffic.

 

[The Ham]

Or you'll just resell as a "runaround", which is what people do with ICEs as well. For that purpose even a 25% range on a 200 mile range car (for example) would be fine, at least for those who have driveways and overnight charging capacity, which is going to be a significant proportion of two-car households. Most small second runarounds do at most 10-20 miles daily, many far less.

In terms of how reliable EVs can be, look at milk floats, they just keep going despite being worked hard daily.

So what all that points to is "non-issue"

Indeed, even a 150 mile range (new) would only have fallen to 120 miles, that's still enough for most run around to only need charging once or twice a week, but would still allow you to do a 180 mile trip (comfortably) with just one top up. Which would allow you to (say) do a day trip to somewhere quite some distance away and then only top up on the way back as you stop for dinner.

That's still quite a lot of flexibility and so would still appeal to quite a lot of people, even quite a few for whom that's their only car.

Even for most city based car club cars that would still be more than adequate (assuming there was also a 250+ mile range car also available nearby for longer trips).

 

[reddragon]

Indeed, even a 150 mile range (new) would only have fallen to 120 miles, that's still enough for most run around to only need charging once or twice a week, but would still allow you to do a 180 mile trip (comfortably) with just one top up. Which would allow you to (say) do a day trip to somewhere quite some distance away and then only top up on the way back as you stop for dinner.

That's still quite a lot of flexibility and so would still appeal to quite a lot of people, even quite a few for whom that's their only car.

Even for most city based car club cars that would still be more than adequate (assuming there was also a 250+ mile range car also available nearby for longer trips).

At the moment only a 115 mile range e-Golf but that will soon change.

 

[trebor79]

Do you want a Chinese car though? I’m not going to be a hypocrite here; as much as I try not to buy Chinese products, especially the throwaway tat they specialise in producing, it’s practically impossible to avoid them altogether as they make so much stuff (some of it very good). They also make a lot of components that find their way into things such as cars, for (a pertinent) example. Splashing £30k on something made in China by a Chinese company though just doesn’t sit right with me (you may of course feel differently, I’m not here to judge!).

Yes, I'd be perfectly happy with a Chinese car. Almost every other durable good I buy is Chinese made, and some of it is of exquisite quality.
Obviously lots of tat come from China, but that's only because low cost tat is never going to be made in anything other than the very lowest cost manufacturing location (or at least not for very long!).
Most Tesla Model 3 sold in the UK and Europe are now Chinese made. The Polestar 2 is Chinese made (Volvo now being Chinese owned in a similar manner to the renains of MG Rover being Chinese owned).

There are no offers on the MG5 due to demand and the new model is a visual revamp due late 22. Excellent car with lots of space. The only drawback with the current model is the infotainment is a bit slow.
The IONIQ5 is a wow car with the Kia/Hyundai leading efficiency & tech. Not much more space than the MG5 by wow its a good car.
The PSA group e208/Corsa/Citreon etc are on a compromise platform so space inside is tiny and dealer knowledge is minimal. I ruled this one out unless you want it as a 2 seater.

Yes I think the e208 is expensive for what it is, and somewhat compromised by not being a pure EV platform.
I'm now quite interested by the VW ID3, but there seem to be done concerns about efficiency, particularly in cold weather with a lot of power being used the heat the battery. It's this unique to VW? I haven't heard of other cars needing to hear the battery, other than Tesla in advance of a rapid charge session to ensure the battery of in a condition to accept the charge current.
I think it's going to be a three horse race between the VW, Hyundai and MG. I suspect the Hyundai will win - it's also the only one of them that offers full one pedal driving (I think), which I absolutely loved with the i3. It's also the most expensive. Decisions!

 

[DustyBin]

Yes, I'd be perfectly happy with a Chinese car. Almost every other durable good I buy is Chinese made, and some of it is of exquisite quality.
Obviously lots of tat come from China, but that's only because low cost tat is never going to be made in anything other than the very lowest cost manufacturing location (or at least not for very long!).
Most Tesla Model 3 sold in the UK and Europe are now Chinese made. The Polestar 2 is Chinese made (Volvo now being Chinese owned in a similar manner to the renains of MG Rover being Chinese owned).

I think you’ve missed my point (which may not have been clear to be fair). Personally I’m not comfortable putting money into Chinese companies/the Chinese economy where I can practically avoid doing so. Like I said though (genuinely) I’m not here to judge.

 

[trebor79]

I think you’ve missed my point (which may not have been clear to be fair). Personally I’m not comfortable putting money into Chinese companies/the Chinese economy where I can practically avoid doing so. Like I said though (genuinely) I’m not here to judge.

TBH I couldn't care less and I'll leave the geopolitical stuff to the politicians. If the government thinks it's ok to buy a car made in China I'm not going to argue.
I think I'll end up with an ID3 or ID4 though.

 

[johncrossley]

The UK seems to have a preference for Chinese electric buses e.g. BYD and Yutong. There are arguably better European makes but probably too expensive for the British bus market.

 

[reddragon]

The UK seems to have a preference for Chinese electric buses e.g. BYD and Yutong. There are arguably better European makes but probably too expensive for the British bus market.

Initially all of the UK electric buses were BYD, then we moved to putting bodies on BYD chassis and now we are building our own with BYD batteries.

The European ones whilst built in Europe have batteries & electrical systems from BYD or CATL both Chinese

 

[johncrossley]

The European ones whilst built in Europe have batteries & electrical systems from BYD or CATL both Chinese

Does that include VDL, probably the biggest supplier in Europe? They seemed angry about losing a tender to BYD. Of course, they are primarily looking out for themselves, but if they use a lot of Chinese components then it would be hypocritical.

VDL Bus & Coach rondt overname in Scandinavië af

Eind vorig jaar maakte VDL Bus & Coach bekend dat VDL Bus & Coach Nordic AB alle aandelen overneemt van het Zweedse bedrijf Björks & Byberg. Deze overeenkomst werd gesloten op 4 mei 2018. De overname door VDL Bus & Coach is met t

www.vdlgroep.com

The 259 electric buses intended for the outlying areas of Overijssel, Flevoland and Gelderland will be ordered from BYD in China. The previously-announced 156 electric buses, also Chinese, for use in the transport areas of Amstelland-Meerlanden and Haarlem-IJmond, will be delivered by Ebusco, an importer of Chinese buses and coaches.

Naturally, VDL Bus & Coach, the only Dutch bus and coach manufacturer and part of our family business VDL Groep, would have liked to supply these 415 electric buses. For the record we were certainly able to meet all the requested conditions ahead of the final award: concept and on-time delivery, for which extensive guarantees were provided. The Netherlands has around 6,500 local buses. Given a depreciation period of 10 to 15 years, the market for 2020 has largely been filled. So there’s little room for our Dutch buses in the year ahead, despite the home market being crucial for us as a European leader in electrifying heavy transport.

First and foremost: we are in favour of as few trade barriers in the world as possible, but also of a level playing field. Apart from economies of scale, cheaper wages and government support which are often provided, it’s also easier for Chinese companies to export to Europe than it is the other way around. The Chinese pay very low import duties for their products in Europe, while Europe faces hefty import tariffs. China also restricts competition in its domestic market, forcing companies to manufacture their products in China and to share their knowledge. All these are facets of an uneven playing field.

 

[reddragon]

Does that include VDL, probably the biggest supplier in Europe? They seemed angry about losing a tender to BYD. Of course, they are primarily looking out for themselves, but if they use a lot of Chinese components then it would be hypocritical.

VDL Bus & Coach rondt overname in Scandinavië af

Eind vorig jaar maakte VDL Bus & Coach bekend dat VDL Bus & Coach Nordic AB alle aandelen overneemt van het Zweedse bedrijf Björks & Byberg. Deze overeenkomst werd gesloten op 4 mei 2018. De overname door VDL Bus & Coach is met t

www.vdlgroep.com

CATL provide the batteries & electronics to VDL

CATL to equip VDL e-buses with its LFP battery (and reveals a new European dealer)​

Battery manufacturer CATL will provide VDL Bus & Coach with its high-energy density battery system based on LFP formula. The Chinese company recently announced the agreement with the Dutch manufacturer, which is the leader in Western Europe with regards to electric bus sales volumes so far. Also, CATL announced a deal with Quantron AG,

CATL to equip VDL e-buses with its LFP battery (and reveals a new European dealer) - Sustainable Bus

Battery manufacturer CATL will provide VDL Bus & Coach with its high-energy density battery system based on LFP formula. The Chinese company

www.sustainable-bus.com

 

[The Ham]

A potential solution for those who are unable to charge at home in the form of a portable charger the size of a suitcase which provides about 20 miles of range:

Portable electric vehicle chargers will be available next year

The power bank is the size of a compact suitcase with wheels and a retractable handle - and is lightweight enough to be stored in a car boot, or at home.

www-thisismoney-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

It says the lightweight device will 'bring the possibility of home charging to all', including those without off-street parking.

The portable 'power bank' will be available on a monthly subscription basis of less than £50 a month or can be bought outright for a price that's 'comparable to the purchase and installation of a level 2 home EV charger' - which is roughly around £800.

 

[johncrossley]

A potential solution for those who are unable to charge at home in the form of a portable charger the size of a suitcase which provides about 20 miles of range:

Portable electric vehicle chargers will be available next year

The power bank is the size of a compact suitcase with wheels and a retractable handle - and is lightweight enough to be stored in a car boot, or at home.

www-thisismoney-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

Nice idea, but how do you stop someone stealing it during charging?

 

[trebor79]

The cable is locked into the car socket during charging. Same thing that stops people disconnecting your car for a laugh.

 

[jon0844]

A potential solution for those who are unable to charge at home in the form of a portable charger the size of a suitcase which provides about 20 miles of range:

Portable electric vehicle chargers will be available next year

The power bank is the size of a compact suitcase with wheels and a retractable handle - and is lightweight enough to be stored in a car boot, or at home.

www-thisismoney-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

How many times can you charge a phone with that thing?

I assume these are similar to what the breakdown services carry?

 

[apk55]

A small petrol generator may be another solution - available for a few hundred quid from a local machine mart.

 

[AM9]

A small petrol generator may be another solution - available for a few hundred quid from a local machine mart.

Using 'sustainable' petrol of course! It would be a backward step.

 

[reddragon]

Using 'sustainable' petrol of course! It would be a backward step.

A small petrol generator may be another solution - available for a few hundred quid from a local machine mart.

Common in the early days when on long trips without enough chargers, but pointless today.

 

[DustyBin]

How many times can you charge a phone with that thing?

I assume these are similar to what the breakdown services carry?

I have a little power pack for jump starting, when I say little I mean mobile phone sized. It will start my 2.8 V6 Sierra and probably even bigger engines which is rather impressive! Powering an EV for any distance is obviously a different matter, as you can see from the linked “suitcase”.

Using 'sustainable' petrol of course! It would be a backward step.

The irony is rather amusing though!

 

[jon0844]

I have one of those power banks that can also give a boost to a car battery, but I wasn't talking about that.. The breakdown services do have means to top up EV batteries, and I assume they're similar to this suitcase (and not petrol based).

 

[DustyBin]

I have one of those power banks that can also give a boost to a car battery, but I wasn't talking about that.. The breakdown services do have means to top up EV batteries, and I assume they're similar to this suitcase (and not petrol based).

Yes sorry I went off on a tangent there! I’d assume they’re similar.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I have one of those power banks that can also give a boost to a car battery, but I wasn't talking about that.. The breakdown services do have means to top up EV batteries, and I assume they're similar to this suitcase (and not petrol based).

It's diesel RAC use to recharge electric vehicles:

EV Boost Mobile Charging System | Innovation | RAC

We developed the first lightweight, mobile electric vehicle charger which means our vans can give you a 10-mile charge to help you get to the next charge point.

www.rac.co.uk

Our technical team integrated a high output generator fitted to the latest, cleanest diesel engines in our standard patrol and Heavy Duty 4x4 vans. It's capable of charging 99% of all electric vehicles on the road today.

 

[jon0844]

I suppose that makes sense so it never runs out of power itself.

 

[trebor79]

Crikey, this thread has got me into trouble. It's prompted me to do some extensive research, talk my employer into offering salary sacrifice and I've booked a test drive in an ID3 tomorrow. My wife is fuming! But I've pointed out the salary sacrifice makes the car so cheap that it will pay for itself on fuel savings alone, she'll come round.

Also going to try an MG5. Bigger, cheaper, but about the same lease cost due to depreciation. Also seems more efficient than the VW in terms of miles/kWh actually achieved.
I have a list of things the check out tomorrow, mainly associated with an apparently rather lazy right hand drive conversion.

 

[DustyBin]

Crikey, this thread has got me into trouble. It's prompted me to do some extensive research, talk my employer into offering salary sacrifice and I've booked a test drive in an ID3 tomorrow. My wife is fuming! But I've pointed out the salary sacrifice makes the car so cheap that it will pay for itself on fuel savings alone, she'll come round.

Also going to try an MG5. Bigger, cheaper, but about the same lease cost due to depreciation. Also seems more efficient than the VW in terms of miles/kWh actually achieved.
I have a list of things the check out tomorrow, mainly associated with an apparently rather lazy right hand drive conversion.

Let us know how you get on!

I’m less than six months away from having to think about what to do in terms of daily transport. I’m still considering going electric but I keep thinking if I hold out for another couple of years something may come along that appeals to me more than the current crop of EVs.

 

[Bald Rick]

Crikey, this thread has got me into trouble. It's prompted me to do some extensive research, talk my employer into offering salary sacrifice and I've booked a test drive in an ID3 tomorrow. My wife is fuming! But I've pointed out the salary sacrifice makes the car so cheap that it will pay for itself on fuel savings alone, she'll come round.

Also going to try an MG5. Bigger, cheaper, but about the same lease cost due to depreciation. Also seems more efficient than the VW in terms of miles/kWh actually achieved.
I have a list of things the check out tomorrow, mainly associated with an apparently rather lazy right hand drive conversion.

ID3, no contest.

Although the ID5 was released yesterday, worth a look...

 

[The Ham]

Let us know how you get on!

I’m less than six months away from having to think about what to do in terms of daily transport. I’m still considering going electric but I keep thinking if I hold out for another couple of years something may come along that appeals to me more than the current crop of EVs.

I'd be tempted to start the process before you think you need to, as it may take longer than you think to get a new car. That may also make finding the right second hand car a bit harder.

 

[DustyBin]

I'd be tempted to start the process before you think you need to, as it may take longer than you think to get a new car. That may also make finding the right second hand car a bit harder.

Yes absolutely, my work car is on a PCP which runs until December 2022 so I want to give myself at least 6 months. I could actually change it now, I have substantial positive equity that would cover a generous deposit on a new car but I’m undecided as to whether to actually buy it outright at the end of the PCP (it’s a limited edition of 600 so I’m tempted to keep it!). The other option is to cash in and not bother replacing it and use my GF’s car for a while as it’s practically an ornament, or buy something second hand as a stop gap. Or I could take a company car but then I’m stuck with it for 4 years and if I went for an EV (I can get a Model 3, Mach-E or i4 for example which aren’t to be sniffed at!) I’m not convinced the current BIK perks will last that long. Decisions decisions!

 

[reddragon]

ID3, no contest.

Although the ID5 was released yesterday, worth a look...

The silly buttons put me off the ID3. The Seat Bjorn version is a less quirky more sporty version of the ID3

Crikey, this thread has got me into trouble. It's prompted me to do some extensive research, talk my employer into offering salary sacrifice and I've booked a test drive in an ID3 tomorrow. My wife is fuming! But I've pointed out the salary sacrifice makes the car so cheap that it will pay for itself on fuel savings alone, she'll come round.

Also going to try an MG5. Bigger, cheaper, but about the same lease cost due to depreciation. Also seems more efficient than the VW in terms of miles/kWh actually achieved.
I have a list of things the check out tomorrow, mainly associated with an apparently rather lazy right hand drive conversion.

Each manufacturer takes a risk on depreciation on PCP, MG clearly choose to take less risk.

I'd be tempted to start the process before you think you need to, as it may take longer than you think to get a new car. That may also make finding the right second hand car a bit harder.

The MG5 is 2 months, the ID3 over 6 months I think.