Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[DustyBin]

It will be. It's far too big a business opportunity to be missed. That doesn't mean that there won't be occasional spots of late implementation, but for the majority of drivers, they will soon change their outlook and realise the cost benefits of non-polluting motoring. The motor industry has already acknowledged that its future sales depend on availability - e.g. BMW/Mercedes/Ford and VW signed an agreement back in 2016 for installing high power (up to 350kW) sites across Europe. Expect to see much more of that until charging is no less problematic than topping up with hydrocarbon fuels. It's naïve to think that they would all invest billions of Euros in all-electric production without ensuring that their customers could use the vehicles.

Agreed, but I suspect there will be an infrastructure “lag”. If I decide to change my work car in the next 6-12 months electric still isn’t the no-brainer it should be (and probably will be in a few years time). Only yesterday I was out and about and had I been in say a Model 3 or Mach-E (which both have a long range) I’d have had to go out of my way to find a charging point. As it happens I stopped to fill up with petrol at a small, fairly remote filling station which didn’t have any charging points, and that’s my worry. Whilst I don’t do that kind of mileage often it’s a legitimate concern still at this point. In reality I’m lucky to get 250 miles out of a tank of petrol but I can take the availability of a filling station for granted.

 

[AM9]

Agreed, but I suspect there will be an infrastructure “lag”. If I decide to change my work car in the next 6-12 months electric still isn’t the no-brainer it should be (and probably will be in a few years time). Only yesterday I was out and about and had I been in say a Model 3 or Mach-E (which both have a long range) I’d have had to go out of my way to find a charging point. As it happens I stopped to fill up with petrol at a small, fairly remote filling station which didn’t have any charging points, and that’s my worry. Whilst I don’t do that kind of mileage often it’s a legitimate concern still at this point. In reality I’m lucky to get 250 miles out of a tank of petrol but I can take the availability of a filling station for granted.

I wasn't really talking about a few month's time, the focus on mass transition is from 2025 onwards so that by 2030 when sales of new IC cars will be banned (or so restricted that they are effectively banned), EVs will be almost universally accepted and in order for them to have been attractive enough to buy, the infrastructure will already be there. For those that don't/won't change, there will be an ever ageing shrinking second-hand car arket and more importantly, an even faster shrinking availability of places to fill up with fuel. The relative ease with which EV vs IC vehicles can be charged/filled will be the reverse of what it has been so far.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m seeing more and more, they’re definitely gaining in popularity. With the arrival of more affordable cars like the ID.3 I can only see this continuing. The infrastructure needs to be there to support them though.

I think it helps that a wider range of vehicles is becoming available. Not everyone wants a small hatch (Nissan Leaf) or a premium saloon (most of Tesla's offering). People want a whole range of vehicle types.

 

[DustyBin]

I think it helps that a wider range of vehicles is becoming available. Not everyone wants a small hatch (Nissan Leaf) or a premium saloon (most of Tesla's offering). People want a whole range of vehicle types.

Yes, although I bemoan the lack of “proper” car shaped large hatch and saloon offerings things seem to be moving in the right direction. The BMW i4 arrives imminently and should give Tesla something to think about. On the subject of the Leaf, I saw a new one yesterday and it was huge!

 

[4F89]

I'm looking to get the Kona Elec top spec, anyone have any prior knowledge of such a beast? Not getting for eco reasons, but it will be cheaper than my 15 year old diesel overall to run

 

[david1212]

The two big savings that currently offset the higher purchase cost of an electric car over petrol / diesel are zero RFL and energy. There should be a saving on maintenance too given modern oil can be £10/litre and no 5year / 60000 mile cambelt replacements at £400 or so. For energy based on 4miles per kW, 40mpg and the standard rate domestic electricity tariff the actual energy cost is similar. The saving is because the pump price of petrol / diesel is roughly 40% for the fuel and 60% duty & VAT.

Once more EV’s are on the road the government will want to recoup the lost income. However it is done the higher purchase price of the EV ceases to be offset.

The charging infrastructure needs a lot of work and investment. The estate where I live was built in the 1970’s. The detached and semi-detached houses were all built with single garage, although some have now been converted to living space, and at least a single off-road parking space. Most are within the plot but a few are remote hence running a cable requires agreement with at least one neighbour. The terraced houses and flats have no allocated parking. There are simply communal car park areas for typically 20 cars which I presume are the responsibility of the council. A few could run a cable over the back fence but mostly this would be across open public shared space and footpaths. For some the parking is across a road. The only option I see is the installation of charging points. These don’t need to be high power or even actual chargers just 6kW rated sockets. The charger should be integral to the car. Who would pay for these and how usage charged is another issue. Likewise do the existing sub-stations have adequate capacity or is either upgrading or the build of additional sub-stations required?

My aunt lives in a block of 12 flats on a private site. Each has a garage but remote so no power. There are visitors spaces at the front. Here who will fund the installation of charging points?

Given mentioned in earlier posts I have looked at the Vauxhall Corsa-e. This is stated to have 50kWH battery, 30minute fast charge and a headline 209 mile range. Electric drive systems already have low losses while most of the energy is used overcoming gravity and air resistance so I do not see future EV’s using less energy. The current balance between battery cost, weight and volume is likely to remain too. Battery development is likely to bring an increase in capacity so perhaps 60 – 65kWH for the same weight and volume plus maybe lower cost.

From the range calculator the 209 miles is at 45mph. Set 60mph and it reduces to 158 miles, set 70mph then 128 miles. Now allow 20% contingency and that a fast charge is to 80% then the range at 70mph becomes 82 miles. What these ranges might be after 5, 8, 10 years or 50000, 80000, 100000 miles is uncertain particularly if 50% or more of the charges are from a fast charger.

The 82 miles at 70mph happens to be close to the distance from the M4/M5 interchange to Exeter. Hence most cars will need to stop to recharge. Consider a flow of 6000 cars per hour and 6 charging stations. At each charging stations with 30 minute charges 500 100kW fast chargers are required. That is a demand of 50MW. Add the charging station for the other carriageway and a feed of 100MW is required. Look at that in the context of providing power for 33000 3kW electric heaters or 45000 2.2kW kettles. Right across the country along motorways and major roads e.g. A34 from M3 to M40, A55 North Wales large charging stations at intervals of no more than 15 miles are required.

Once holiday travellers are at their base destination again charging points are required. I wonder how many chalet, caravan and camping sites will need a new electricity feed to provide a 6kW charging point for every unit?

Day trip destinations e.g. heritage railways, theme parks, stately homes are going to require charging points. These don’t need to be 30 minute / 100kW but say 4 hour / 15kW. Again will many of these need a new electricity feed in addition to the installation distribution system. Who initially and long term is going to pay ?

Overall major investment over the next 12 years or so is required.

 

[PeterC]

The two big savings that currently offset the higher purchase cost of an electric car over petrol / diesel are zero RFL and energy. There should be a saving on maintenance too given modern oil can be £10/litre and no 5year / 60000 mile cambelt replacements at £400 or so. For energy based on 4miles per kW, 40mpg and the standard rate domestic electricity tariff the actual energy cost is similar. The saving is because the pump price of petrol / diesel is roughly 40% for the fuel and 60% duty & VAT.

Once more EV’s are on the road the government will want to recoup the lost income. However it is done the higher purchase price of the EV ceases to be offset.

The charging infrastructure needs a lot of work and investment. The estate where I live was built in the 1970’s. The detached and semi-detached houses were all built with single garage, although some have now been converted to living space, and at least a single off-road parking space. Most are within the plot but a few are remote hence running a cable requires agreement with at least one neighbour. The terraced houses and flats have no allocated parking. There are simply communal car park areas for typically 20 cars which I presume are the responsibility of the council. A few could run a cable over the back fence but mostly this would be across open public shared space and footpaths. For some the parking is across a road. The only option I see is the installation of charging points. These don’t need to be high power or even actual chargers just 6kW rated sockets. The charger should be integral to the car. Who would pay for these and how usage charged is another issue. Likewise do the existing sub-stations have adequate capacity or is either upgrading or the build of additional sub-stations required?

My aunt lives in a block of 12 flats on a private site. Each has a garage but remote so no power. There are visitors spaces at the front. Here who will fund the installation of charging points?

Given mentioned in earlier posts I have looked at the Vauxhall Corsa-e. This is stated to have 50kWH battery, 30minute fast charge and a headline 209 mile range. Electric drive systems already have low losses while most of the energy is used overcoming gravity and air resistance so I do not see future EV’s using less energy. The current balance between battery cost, weight and volume is likely to remain too. Battery development is likely to bring an increase in capacity so perhaps 60 – 65kWH for the same weight and volume plus maybe lower cost.

From the range calculator the 209 miles is at 45mph. Set 60mph and it reduces to 158 miles, set 70mph then 128 miles. Now allow 20% contingency and that a fast charge is to 80% then the range at 70mph becomes 82 miles. What these ranges might be after 5, 8, 10 years or 50000, 80000, 100000 miles is uncertain particularly if 50% or more of the charges are from a fast charger.

The 82 miles at 70mph happens to be close to the distance from the M4/M5 interchange to Exeter. Hence most cars will need to stop to recharge. Consider a flow of 6000 cars per hour and 6 charging stations. At each charging stations with 30 minute charges 500 100kW fast chargers are required. That is a demand of 50MW. Add the charging station for the other carriageway and a feed of 100MW is required. Look at that in the context of providing power for 33000 3kW electric heaters or 45000 2.2kW kettles. Right across the country along motorways and major roads e.g. A34 from M3 to M40, A55 North Wales large charging stations at intervals of no more than 15 miles are required.

Once holiday travellers are at their base destination again charging points are required. I wonder how many chalet, caravan and camping sites will need a new electricity feed to provide a 6kW charging point for every unit?

Day trip destinations e.g. heritage railways, theme parks, stately homes are going to require charging points. These don’t need to be 30 minute / 100kW but say 4 hour / 15kW. Again will many of these need a new electricity feed in addition to the installation distribution system. Who initially and long term is going to pay ?

Overall major investment over the next 12 years or so is required.

It sounds as if you could live in my street. A mix of semis and terraced houses, the semis have their own garages while the rest have dedicated spaces remote from the houses, half of which front onto footpaths rather than the highway. I would need an exceptionally long cable run down the footpath to reach my parking bay. The parking spaces are owned by a management company in which each freeholder is automatically a shareholder. I don't think that the residents of the semis and the few non drivers would be happy about the management charges required to put in charging for the rest of us even if the supply could cope.

In most long day trips that I make there is no charging at the places where I want to stop and most would have difficulty laying on a suitable supply. I suppose it will eliminate a lot of frivolous travel if you are forced to detour to an MSA for lunch rather than the nice country pub or tea shop that is half the point of the day out.

 

[telstarbox]

In the last few weeks I've seen public charging points in:
- A remote Scottish village (albeit quite a touristy one)
- An ALDI car park
- A country pub*
- A suburban petrol station - which had 4 EV bays to 6 petrol pumps

So the opportunities are increasingly out there if you can't charge at home. As someone pointed out upthread, most people don't have a petrol station on their street either but still manage

Understandably range comes up a lot. Our petrol car can touch 400 miles on one tank but our most common journey is about 25 miles each way, so even if the range was only 200 miles it wouldn't be a case of charging before every journey. Nobody should be driving 400 miles in one go anyway!

It's also worth noting that domestic energy consumption has fallen quite a bit over the last few years, even with population growth. This will create some headroom in the grid for the additional demands of vehicle charging.

*Savvy landlords of country pubs have a great chance to get ahead of the game here. If you're driving to a pub you can almost guarantee you will be stopping for at least an hour so it's a perfect charging opportunity!

 

[david1212]

It's also worth noting that domestic energy consumption has fallen quite a bit over the last few years, even with population growth. This will create some headroom in the grid for the additional demands of vehicle charging.

*Savvy landlords of country pubs have a great chance to get ahead of the game here. If you're driving to a pub you can almost guarantee you will be stopping for at least an hour so it's a perfect charging opportunity!

Not only has domestic electricity consumption fallen but also ( sadly in terms of employment and as a country UK self-sufficiency ) so has industrial consumption. Other than redevelopment of industrial sites there is still the issue of local distribution. Many villages have had new houses built offsetting the lower consumption per house. Further if away from gas electricity demand will be significant for heating. The village where I lived 35+ years ago has no gas. Our house was early 1960's build. The heating was an open fire with a back boiler to feed the radiators. Later we installed a night storage unit. In the winter though not sufficient without the open fire. Many houses did have night storage heaters. The other main option was oil. Hence there may not be a huge overhead in the current electricity supply network not least with recent legalisation against coal and wet wood.

For a country pub to give a worthwhile top-up in an hour the charger needs to be at least 20/25kW. The current supply may only allow one of these. After that the costs of installation my be hard to recoup.


Travelodge, Premier Inn etc will require major installations. The weekday business users will expect to be able to fully recharge in 8 hours. Further many may well have cars with a higher battery capacity which in time could be 100kWh. Other will have light vans which in time might have 150kWh battery capacity. Hence chargers will need to be rated at 15/20kW. From a quick search the average number of rooms per site seems to be around 75. For 75 15kW chargers an electricity supply capacity in excess of 1MW is required. For many sites that will mean a new feed in addition to the distribution sub-station.

 

[gingerheid]

I really worry that we're doing the same as we did with lightbulbs - forcing everyone onto the car equivalent of one of those dreadful dim weird coloured fluorescent things that took ages to heat up while the car equivalent of a viable LED bulb is one technological advance (that could come at any time between tomorrow and the next ten years) away.

I wonder if battery cars (for we mislabel them) are something that should wait until we have a better idea what the winning formula (a better battery material? a different charging technology? something else altogether?) will be?
Do really solve so many problems that it's worth trying to encourage them before they're completely ready? After all perhaps the main environmental problem with cars isn't actually the fuel they use anyway. Perhaps the main environmental problem is actually their land use? Does making people change their source of fuel from petrol and diesel to lithium and cobalt really make so much difference?

 

[AM9]

I really worry that we're doing the same as we did with lightbulbs - forcing everyone onto the car equivalent of one of those dreadful dim weird coloured fluorescent things that took ages to heat up while the car equivalent of a viable LED bulb is one technological advance (that could come at any time between tomorrow and the next ten years) away.

I wonder if battery cars (for we mislabel them) are something that should wait until we have a better idea what the winning formula (a better battery material? a different charging technology? something else altogether?) will be?
Do really solve so many problems that it's worth trying to encourage them before they're completely ready? After all perhaps the main environmental problem with cars isn't actually the fuel they use anyway. Perhaps the main environmental problem is actually their land use? Does making people change their source of fuel from petrol and diesel to lithium and cobalt really make so much difference?

Unfortunately that argument ignores the rapidly advancing climate crisis. If a policy of 'wait until something better comes along' prevails, there may be changes that cannot be reversed without unforseen changes to life itself. Of course, there's the typically western civilisation's attitude of "I'm not affected (yet) and I can afford to buy my way out of the problem".
Lithium and cobalt use on batteries may not be the best solution, but the evidence of continuing to burn hydrocarbons shows that that is probably far worse, - in other news, Vancouver yesterday had temperatures of 49.5 Deg C!

 

[edwin_m]

I really worry that we're doing the same as we did with lightbulbs - forcing everyone onto the car equivalent of one of those dreadful dim weird coloured fluorescent things that took ages to heat up while the car equivalent of a viable LED bulb is one technological advance (that could come at any time between tomorrow and the next ten years) away.

I wonder if battery cars (for we mislabel them) are something that should wait until we have a better idea what the winning formula (a better battery material? a different charging technology? something else altogether?) will be?
Do really solve so many problems that it's worth trying to encourage them before they're completely ready? After all perhaps the main environmental problem with cars isn't actually the fuel they use anyway. Perhaps the main environmental problem is actually their land use? Does making people change their source of fuel from petrol and diesel to lithium and cobalt really make so much difference?

In terms of the charging technology, all chargers provide electricity so I'd expect any future electric vehicle technology to be backwards-compatible with existing chargers, albeit that new optimised chargers might be quicker.

It's probably also the case that without incentives to grow the EV market now and the looming threat of bans on new IC vehicles, the car industry would just have carried on as normal making IC vehicles and EVs would remain expensive and not very useful (they are arguably still that but improving in both respects). It's seeking to replicate what's happened with renewable energy technologies, which have similarly been incentivised and fossil fuel use discouraged. This has stimulated technological development and economies of scale in production, making them now one of the most price-competitive sources of power.

 

[DustyBin]

I really worry that we're doing the same as we did with lightbulbs - forcing everyone onto the car equivalent of one of those dreadful dim weird coloured fluorescent things that took ages to heat up while the car equivalent of a viable LED bulb is one technological advance (that could come at any time between tomorrow and the next ten years) away.

I wonder if battery cars (for we mislabel them) are something that should wait until we have a better idea what the winning formula (a better battery material? a different charging technology? something else altogether?) will be?
Do really solve so many problems that it's worth trying to encourage them before they're completely ready? After all perhaps the main environmental problem with cars isn't actually the fuel they use anyway. Perhaps the main environmental problem is actually their land use? Does making people change their source of fuel from petrol and diesel to lithium and cobalt really make so much difference?

This is interesting, especially as Toyota led the way in terms of Hybrids:

Toyota Says It's Still Too Soon To Focus On Electric Cars

Toyota plans to continue to offer a variety of options over the next 30 years. It says it's looking at a car's entire life cycle to reduce emissions.

insideevs.com

Toyota Says It's Still Too Soon To Focus On Electric Cars​

This comes as no surprise since Toyota has had this stance for years, but now it's also citing BEV emissions. ​

Toyota continues to assert that its vehicle lineup will offer a variety of options over the next 30 years. At the company's annual shareholders meeting, executives reiterated their stance. Toyota has been pushing hybrids and hydrogen for years, and it still insists that it's not time to focus on electric cars.
An investor asked during the meeting why the world's largest automaker (Toyota) has a different view from that of Honda. The competing Japanese brand has set a goal to have a fully electric lineup by 2040. Toyota Director Shigeki Terashi, who joined the call from Toyota's Aichi headquarters, reportedly replied:

“It’s too early to concentrate on one option.”

Terashi added that between now and 2050, the brand needs to offer multiple options, such as hybrids and fuel-cell cars. He also said these vehicle types need to compete with one another to offer people the best options.
While Ford, GM, and Volkswagen have made it clear that they're going "all in" related to a future of EVs, Toyota argues that battery-powered cars aren't necessarily the way of the future. Moreover, it believes "non-electric cars" will continue to thrive in markets across the globe. Toyota’s Chief Technology Officer Masahiko Maeda explained:

“Some people love battery-electric vehicles but others don’t see the current technologies as convenient. In the end what matters is what customers choose.”

As we previously reported, Toyota is saying publically that it will leave the decision to car shoppers. However, Toyota isn't just citing a lack of demand for EVs as the only concern. Rather, according to Automotive News, it also suggests the materials needed to make EV batteries "could account for a larger share of total emissions than those from tailpipes."

Nonetheless, Toyota did say it will make an effort to reduce production costs associated with EVs, though it will do so by producing them alongside other vehicles that don't use battery-electric powertrains.

Toyota says to truly reduce carbon emissions, automakers must look at a vehicle's entire life cycle, not just its tailpipe emissions.

 

[Domh245]

Do really solve so many problems that it's worth trying to encourage them before they're completely ready? After all perhaps the main environmental problem with cars isn't actually the fuel they use anyway. Perhaps the main environmental problem is actually their land use? Does making people change their source of fuel from petrol and diesel to lithium and cobalt really make so much difference?

Getting people to rethink their need for a car would certainly be ideal! Going from ICE car to no car is preferable to ICE car to EV in just about every aspect, but that is a much harder sell.

 

[EssexGonzo]

I'm looking to get the Kona Elec top spec, anyone have any prior knowledge of such a beast? Not getting for eco reasons, but it will be cheaper than my 15 year old diesel overall to run

The Kona along with its Kia sibling is regularly praised by the motoring press for its bang per buck - range, usability and quality. The Hyundai group are beginning to look a little like Toyota, in a good way, in terms of reliability, quality and engineering depth.

This is interesting, especially as Toyota led the way in terms of Hybrids:

Toyota Says It's Still Too Soon To Focus On Electric Cars

Toyota plans to continue to offer a variety of options over the next 30 years. It says it's looking at a car's entire life cycle to reduce emissions.

insideevs.com

Toyota are genuine pioneers. They don’t chase fashion (as much as the others!), they plough their own furrow and their products are magnificently engineered. The Toyota Group were almost alone (apart from Tesla) in not having to worry about Co2-based fines due to their long term experience with hybrids.

And arguably, I’d say that they’re possibly the greenest car company, Tesla included. They (including Lexus) consistently top reliability tables which translates into cars that last longer. Which is far greener than the short-term renewal cycle promoted by most car companies. I can’t calculate it but combined with their long term commitment to hybrids, this longevity benefit must translate into a smaller carbon footprint per vehicle?

 

[ABB125]

And arguably, I’d say that they’re possibly the greenest car company, Tesla included. They (including Lexus) consistently top reliability tables which translates into cars that last longer. Which is far greener than the short-term renewal cycle promoted by most car companies. I can’t calculate it but combined with their long term commitment to hybrids, this longevity benefit must translate into a smaller carbon footprint per vehicle?

Especially with the almost indestructible Hilux! (Though I'm not sure about newer models; are they as long-lasting as older ones?)

 

[Bald Rick]

The Kona along with its Kia sibling is regularly praised by the motoring press for its bang per buck - range, usability and quality.

The number of brand new Kia e Neros I am seeing on the road is astonishing. Catching up Tesla 3s quickly! (In number, not speed).

 

[Diplodicus]

We are installing a "proper" recharging outlet as part of a major renovation partly for when we purchase our next car *CR-V hybrid current favourite) plus an assumption that more friends and family will arrive requiring a recharge/top-up. Then I thought: hang on a minute... I will be paying £5-£8 or the pleasure of their company. At the moment, nobody arrives asking me for 10L of fuel "to get them home".

It will be interesting how the etiquette develops!

 

[EssexGonzo]

The number of brand new Kia e Neros I am seeing on the road is astonishing. Catching up Tesla 3s quickly! (In number, not speed).

I would choose one of those over a VW ID 3, just.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The number of brand new Kia e Neros I am seeing on the road is astonishing. Catching up Tesla 3s quickly! (In number, not speed).

I've been a passenger in one and they are sports-car quick off the mark. Quite high quality too.

 

[DustyBin]

I've been a passenger in one and they are sports-car quick off the mark. Quite high quality too.

The most powerful version does 0-60 in a respectable 6.5 seconds. The standard version takes upwards of 8.0 seconds though which is rather pedestrian. You do get that instant torque though with any EV so they (nearly) all feel quite quick off the mark.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The most powerful version does 0-60 in a respectable 6.5 seconds. The standard version takes upwards of 8.0 seconds though which is rather pedestrian. You do get that instant torque though with any EV so they (nearly) all feel quite quick off the mark.

I suspect the latter is quite important. To get the headline 0-60 from a manual car you need to drive it with some skill, both in terms of gear change and avoiding wheelspin. To get it from an EV you just stamp your foot down on the accelerator and keep it there.

 

[DelayRepay]

I'm interested to know if anyone here has an electric or hybrid car?

My petrol car is getting on for 10 years old now, and I had planned to change it last year. They Covid came, working from home came and it was hardly being used. So I never bothered changing it. Now I'm not sure whether I should. My day to day mileage is virtually zero, just my weekly trip to Tesco, but I do tend to make longer journeys for leisure at the weekends.

Given the situation with climate change, I have wondered whether my next car should be electric. If I buy a new petrol car, it will be the last petrol car I own. But as with all new technology, I think electric cars will develop technologically and reduce in price over the next couple of years. So I'm not sure whether to swap my car now for a new petrol one, make the switch to electric now or hang onto my existing car for another year or two to see how electric develops. I'm also wondering whether the government might offer incentives to switch in the future, like the diesel scrappage scheme they ran

I don't know anyone who has an electric car, but when I speak to people the general feeling seems to be that electric cars have limited range and the lack of charging points could be an issue. Although this is changing, will there be enough charging points in the future? The public car park outside my office has about 500 spaces and pre-covid was full most weekdays. But only two of the spaces had electric charging points so as the number of electric cars increases, the likelihood of finding a free (not in use, not financially!) charging point might reduce.

I'm interested to hear experiences from anyone here who has an electric car. Do you have difficulties charging, and do you spend long journeys worrying that you'll run out of power? And if you are unfortunate enough to run out of power, what can you do? Would the AA or RAC come to rescue you? When I was very young, I once managed to run out of petrol but it was easy enough (if not a bit embarrassing) to get my dad to bring me a can of petrol. Is there an electric car equivalent of a long walk to a petrol station to get yourself out of a pickle?

 

[Bald Rick]

Disclaimer - I don’t have an electric car, but three of my neighbours and several good friends do. What they say:

1) Range isn’t an issue. It might be an issue if you were regularly doing 200 mile+ trips in a hurry, but the number of people who do that is really quite small. (And the issue would be that you’d have to stop to charge for half an hour or so at some point in the journey, when really you should stop for that sort of time on that sort of journey anyway).

2) lack of charging points isn’t an issue. Assuming you can charge at home (not everyone can, of course) it’s simply a case of plugging in once a week (or less!) when the battery is getting low. Two of my friends do reasonable mileages in theirs - 50 miles a day or so - and never, ever have a trouble charging either at home or finding a public charger.

3) the public charging network is expanding rapidly. Zap map shows where they all are.

4) running short of battery is almost impossible, and you’d have to be deliberately trying to do it. The car will tell you its range, and tell you where the nearest available charging point is, and direct you to it. None of the people I know with EVs have ever run out, or even come close to doing so.

5) the most important one. Every single person I know with an EV swears they are never going back to petrol / diesel.


EVs are more expensive to buy, like for like, but that gap is closing. They are, at present, much cheaper to run. The second hand market for EVs Ismail still developing, but within a year or so will be pretty good when the market will be flush with VW IDs, Mini Electrics, Tesla 3s, new version Nissan Leafs, Kia e Niros, etc etc.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I have been solely electric since 2017. I wouldn't go back to driving an ICE (unless there were no option, of course). My first EV had a nominal range of 130 miles (in reality 100-155 depending on variables such as climate/weather, type of driving (eg motorway vs. not) etc. My second is nominally 190 (in reality 170-210).

No two life patterns are the same and what works well for me may not work as well for another. I can only speak for myself. In my case, it works perfectly well. I have never failed to get where I am going due to inability to charge en route - and I have done some odd and very rural trips.

In terms of infrastructure, locally (say within 10 miles of) here in 2017 there were a tiny handful of chargers. In the interim, we have lost two (failed, not repaired) rapid posts but we have gained:
57 slow posts at the big mall; four at one Tesco; four at another; four at another mall; six at an Asda; 8 in a municipal car park; and 50kW rapid units x 4 at Starbucks; x1 at a supermarket; x3 at another; x1 at a gym; x1 at another gym; x1 at a hotel; x3 at another coffee shop; the list goes on. All in the last 4 years. I have no reason to suppose that expansion won't continue as EV takeup and demand increases.

I suppose the biggest "hurdle" for a ICE user to overcome is something I refer to as ICE thinking. For years ICE users have typically refuelled {weekly/fortnightly/whatever} and always as a separate event away from home and always only when needed (near empty). And this pattern is what needs to be forgotten. Only by so doing does the charging time cease to be (as much of) an issue. You don't think "it takes an hour to refuel, whereas I can refuel my ICE in 10 minutes". Because it doesn't have to be a separate event, and if it isn't then the elapsed time isn't wasted.

Firstly: recharging isn't an attended activity unlike ICE refuelling. You plug in and walk away, leaving it to get on with it. So you can be doing something else. You leave home full, drive for 3 hours along the motorway and then stop. In all probability you might be doing this anyway - for physical needs. If it's plugged in while you visit whatever facilities then you haven't "wasted" any time at all.

Second: Most (but admittedly not all) people will be able to charge at home, while they watch TV and/or sleep. For many people this is the only refuelling they will ever need except for the once a year trip to Cornwall (or whatever). They can commute (or whatever) all year without ever having to go to a Petrol station and that will actually SAVE such people the time that takes. The net time cost to you is the seconds it takes to plug in when you get home, and unplug the next day.

Third: (esp if no home charging or on a long trip) Recharge whenever there is an opportunity. Go to the supermarket and even if you are only there for 30 minutes, plug it in anyway. It will save 30 minutes next time. Again - if you make an R&R stop on a long trip, recharge as you do so. Choose your locations with a battery top-up in mind. Going out for lunch? Choose the pub where there is a charger nearby over the one where there isn't. Choose the supermarket with a charger over the one where they don't. etc.

And I must mention costs. These will change (most probably the tax and other concessions we currently have) but at the moment there are advantages and you should take these into account alongside the inflated purchase price (i.e. think about total cost of ownership). If you want to be really "cheap" you can almost drive for free. I have covered close to 11k miles in my current car (that figure is somewhat covid reduced) at a total fuel cost of less than £75 - by using free recharges wherever and whnever I can. Sure - the tax advantages and other concessions will probably wane over time. It seems most imminently likely that roadside charging will end up being taxed, to replace fuel duty at some point; but I struggle to imagine how we might be taxed specially on domestic power used for EV charging; thus it seems likely that we will continue to avoid "fuel duty", probably forever. EVs are mechanically much simpler than ICEs so servicing costs are lower. They don't use brake components at the same rate (regeneration rather than traditional brakes). And so on.

I won't go into laborious detail here, but when I traded my first EV (so, I knew with certainty its residual value) at two years, I did a total cost comparision vs. estimates of keeping the 12-year old diesel SUV we had previously and doing the same driving. Choice: keep on using the old diesel (it had a cassette player!) for two years vs. drive a modern, well specced EV. I know that after I sold it, the SUV failed an MOT and needed work - I estimated a figure. I guessed the further depreciation on it over two years. I compared car tax and fuel costs and so on. Everything I could think of. Net costs of the "upgrade" - as close to £0 as makes no difference.

 

[Ken H]

if your current car still goes its probably cheaper to keep it going. modern cars can happily do over 200,000 miles. Your emissions will be lower because there is not the environmental cost of making a new car.

 

[DelayRepay]

Disclaimer - I don’t have an electric car, but three of my neighbours and several good friends do. What they say:

1) Range isn’t an issue. It might be an issue if you were regularly doing 200 mile+ trips in a hurry, but the number of people who do that is really quite small. (And the issue would be that you’d have to stop to charge for half an hour or so at some point in the journey, when really you should stop for that sort of time on that sort of journey anyway).

2) lack of charging points isn’t an issue. Assuming you can charge at home (not everyone can, of course) it’s simply a case of plugging in once a week (or less!) when the battery is getting low. Two of my friends do reasonable mileages in theirs - 50 miles a day or so - and never, ever have a trouble charging either at home or finding a public charger.

3) the public charging network is expanding rapidly. Zap map shows where they all are.

4) running short of battery is almost impossible, and you’d have to be deliberately trying to do it. The car will tell you its range, and tell you where the nearest available charging point is, and direct you to it. None of the people I know with EVs have ever run out, or even come close to doing so.

5) the most important one. Every single person I know with an EV swears they are never going back to petrol / diesel.

Thanks. Thinking of range, the longest journey I do regularly is to see my mum. 110 miles each way plus whatever driving I do locally while I'm there to visit friends etc. I don't think it would be too much of a hardship to find somewhere to charge up while I was there. It is rare for me to go there and back on the same day but even if I did it would just mean stopping for a coffee somewhere on the way out or back to charge up, I guess.

A silly question but if I was visiting someone and they were agreeable, could I charge from their domestic electricity supply, or is that only possible if they have a charging point installed? Because charging at a relative/friend's house while visiting could make life much easier and would make me feel 'safer' in terms of less dependency on public charging points (not just their location, but whether they are available when I need them and not faulty).

 

[Ken H]

Thanks. Thinking of range, the longest journey I do regularly is to see my mum. 110 miles each way plus whatever driving I do locally while I'm there to visit friends etc. I don't think it would be too much of a hardship to find somewhere to charge up while I was there. It is rare for me to go there and back on the same day but even if I did it would just mean stopping for a coffee somewhere on the way out or back to charge up, I guess.

A silly question but if I was visiting someone and they were agreeable, could I charge from their domestic electricity supply, or is that only possible if they have a charging point installed? Because charging at a relative/friend's house while visiting could make life much easier and would make me feel 'safer' in terms of less dependency on public charging points (not just their location, but whether they are available when I need them and not faulty).

you can charge off a 13a socket but its quite slow. and you should pay the host. have cash ready. leave it behind in your room if you think there would be a 'oh you musn't' discussion.

 

[Ediswan]

A silly question but if I was visiting someone and they were agreeable, could I charge from their domestic electricity supply, or is that only possible if they have a charging point installed? Because charging at a relative/friend's house while visiting could make life much easier and would make me feel 'safer' in terms of less dependency on public charging points (not just their location, but whether they are available when I need them and not faulty).

Many/most/all ? EVs can be charged from a 13A socket. But you do need a charger, it is not just a cable

 

[Ken H]

Many/most/all ? EVs can be charged from a 13A socket. But you do need a charger, it is not just a cable

how much should you bung them? how do you start to calculate that?