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Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

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AM9

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While I can easily see there being good use cases for electric cars it does also frustrate me that they frequently do now seem to be taken to be the magic bullet for transport even though their advantage is in reducing pollution but they don't improve other problems cars cause particularly congestion. I was speaking to someone who was boasting about how green they were with their electric vehicle then at some point later were discussing one of the numerous yearly holidays abroad (pre-pandemic) involving long haul flights and seemed oblivious to that not being at all green.

I also get irritated at the belief that electric cars are better in every scenario and I get 'shamed' for not considering or wanting one at the moment. I have been looking for a newer car (on hold due to the pandemic) and planning a three to four year old large high spec estate for 15 to 18K, most likely another Mazda 6. There's nothing remotely suitable that's electric with one just one electric estate in the form of the MG MG5 and it's not really an estate with poor load capacity and not even fold flat seats. After buying a DPF equipped diesel about ten years ago I took up cycling to avoid shorter trips and since then the pedal bikes handle the bulk of my transport needs, the bikes are much greener than any electric car, don't cause congestion, don't take up parking space and significantly improve my mental and physical health. It also means the car spends most of its time doing nothing so I'm never going to make the extra outlay on an electric car back even if a suitable one existed and it means I'm less inclined in general to spend money on cars.
Then EVs have worked on you, i.e. one less polluting IC car on the roads.
 
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JohnMcL7

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Other than premium brands, large estates seem to be dying off in favour of SUVs, though. Even the Mondy is about to be killed off...
I know and even many of the current estates are not that practical because they forego more practical shapes to make the car more stylish and the internal capacity of SUVs is poor for their size. If I can get another decade out of my next petrol car though maybe the SUV fad will finally be over by then...wishful thinking I know.
Then EVs have worked on you, i.e. one less polluting IC car on the roads.
What do you mean? Electric vehicles have absolutely nothing to do with the use of my petrol car.
 

61653 HTAFC

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One of the hidden impacts of the rise of electric vehicles will be a lack of cheap used cars that still work, for those on a budget. Range loss will mean that those who currently might buy a cheap but solid 10-12 year-old car for around £500 and run it until it dies, will no longer have that option. From an environmental perspective that's a good thing, but it will mean that car ownership returns to being a purely middle-class aspect of life. All the more reason to ensure that we invest in and expand public transport provision, rather than using the rise of the electric car as a reason to reduce public transport investment.
 

AM9

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... What do you mean? Electric vehicles have absolutely nothing to do with the use of my petrol car.
In post #31, you said "After buying a DPF equipped diesel about ten years ago I took up cycling to avoid shorter trips and since then the pedal bikes handle the bulk of my transport needs, " - so you have already taken a step forward in reducing pollution. In the near future when the only choice is likely to be the EVs, your rejection of them will mean that step could become permanent.
The benefit of EVs is not just from those that take them up instead of IC polluting vehicles, but also the reduction in the total number of private vehicles on the roads by way of better public transport provision and use.
 

Bletchleyite

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In post #31, you said "After buying a DPF equipped diesel about ten years ago I took up cycling to avoid shorter trips and since then the pedal bikes handle the bulk of my transport needs, " - so you have already taken a step forward in reducing pollution. In the near future when the only choice is likely to be the EVs, your rejection of them will mean that step could become permanent.

I thought he said the same as me, namely that the EV market is not ready for him/me now but will likely be in 5 years or so, because a wider range of models will be offered than at present?

I'm not sure I agree with the "old banger" point, for three reasons:
1. EVs are mechanically simpler, so provided they don't rust away may actually last longer than ICE cars;
2. Unlike a mobile phone, EVs have battery management tech (e.g. temperature) which means the batteries do last rather better than say your crammed in, unventilated mobile phone battery sat in the sun;
3. Most "old bangers" are used as local "runarounds", so even a battery range of 10% of new (i.e. 20 miles or so) would suit a great many town and city based users who only go to the local supermarket or similar in it and could charge daily at home - but they don't seem to degenerate quite that badly quite that quickly.

Put that all together and I don't think EVs will have any effect whatsoever on switching to other modes. The only way you would engineer that is by banning ICE cars entirely (or upping fuel tax to many times its present level) in a very short timescale, which would make motoring affordable only to the middle classes and rich. But that (well, the latter) has nothing to do with EVs per-se, because you could do it anyway and the effect would still be the same.
 

notlob.divad

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Late last year, I bought a 1 year old ex demo/display estate car. The closest I have ever come to buying a brand new car. This has (hopefully temporarily) turned us into a 2 car family as my partner has kept the 9 year old hatchback as a runaround. Public transport for her is possible, during normal times, but for me it would turn a 20-30 minute drive down the express way into a 2 hour journey, involving a train and 2 buses. With the 2nd bus being so infrequent that missing it would make me an hour late for work, so hanging around at the interchange becomes normal. With a retun jounrey to make, I would rather spend those 3 extra hours enjoying my evening than sat on public transport. Plus travelling to see family etc really requires a vehicle. I am hopeful that we can return to a 1 car family later in the year.

I really did look hard at an Electric car, but it would not be fully practical. Whilst at the office I could charge it and many of the local petrol stations are rolling out charging points, there is no way I could charge it at home. Home being a flat on the 4th floor, with no way of running a cable out of the window. If I was still living in a suburban house with a drive and the ability to put a power socket on the outside wall (as I was when living in the UK) then I would definetly have looked for at least a hybrid if not fully EV. But now living in higher density housing, where you don't have a dedicated parking place or the ability to put in your own infrastructure still makes them hihgly impractical for a large number of people.

That said, my city has recently invested in brand new fully electric buses and new trolley buses with battery packs for extended off wire range. So if they can just get all the windturbines currently sat on the dock side assembled and producing power instead of continually throwing coal into the power stations we would really start to be making a difference.
 

Bletchleyite

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I really did look hard at an Electric car, but it would not be fully practical. Whilst at the office I could charge it and many of the local petrol stations are rolling out charging points, there is no way I could charge it at home. Home being a flat on the 4th floor, with no way of running a cable out of the window. If I was still living in a suburban house with a drive and the ability to put a power socket on the outside wall (as I was when living in the UK) then I would definetly have looked for at least a hybrid if not fully EV. But now living in higher density housing, where you don't have a dedicated parking place or the ability to put in your own infrastructure still makes them hihgly impractical for a large number of people.

Does your flat have allocated parking? I'd expect, in time, the residents of such developments will want charging installed in those space, which will solve that issue. It's people with only on-road parking who are a bit stuck.
 

notlob.divad

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Does your flat have allocated parking? I'd expect, in time, the residents of such developments will want charging installed in those space, which will solve that issue. It's people with only on-road parking who are a bit stuck.
There are communal parking areas between the different blocks, but none are allocated to specific blocks or specific flats. So it is more like on street parking. In theory infrastructure could be installed, but that would come down to the local building management co-operative. So it would have to go to the board of directors and then possibly to the General Meeting. It would all get bogged down in how it was going to be paid for, maintained etc, increases in service charges v tarrifs for those who actually use it. It is not going to be done anytime soon, and far more likely that we will have moved on to a new place before hand.
 

JohnMcL7

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In post #31, you said "After buying a DPF equipped diesel about ten years ago I took up cycling to avoid shorter trips and since then the pedal bikes handle the bulk of my transport needs, " - so you have already taken a step forward in reducing pollution. In the near future when the only choice is likely to be the EVs, your rejection of them will mean that step could become permanent.
Yes exactly a diesel car, absolutely nothing to do with electric cars as you said.

Going back to the OP's point about walking and cycling if I was in the same situation again and had the electric car rather than a diesel car I'd likely have never picked up cycling since the electric car wouldn't have any issues with the short trips. Which would have been a big mistake given how worthwhile taking up cycling has been.
 

DustyBin

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I have mixed feelings about EVs and the general car vs public transport debate.

I agree that reducing pollution is a good thing. I also hate being stuck in traffic. I would therefore welcome any reduction in unnecessary car journeys, for example driving half a mile to pick your child up from school (I only use that example as I know a few offenders!). There is, without doubt, room for improvement in regard to car use behaviours. Whilst EVs deal with the point of use emissions problem, if (or as) they become affordable they will simply replace IC engines cars on more or less a one for one basis. That can only be tackled by some kind of (arguably) punitive mileage/usage charge on top of whatever is introduced to compensate for the lack of fuel duty being paid. If that’s the proposal, there needs to be a viable alternative way of getting from A to B. Outside of major cities this alternative doesn’t exist, and even within major cities it often leaves a lot to be desired (London is an outlier in this regard). The capital expenditure required to address this would be enormous, prohibitively so, and therefore I can’t see any alternative but to look to reduce point of use emissions from private cars (and continue to live with the congestion!).

In terms of my own car use, an EV isn’t viable at this time. I make too many long journeys many of which are to areas with very poor charging infrastructure (away from major towns, cities and motorways it isn’t great in general). In addition, I simply don’t have the time to stop and charge an EV en route. It’s just about tolerable when travelling for leisure purposes but not when on business. I should add that when travelling between major towns and cities I actually try and use the train, although I probably undo all of the good work by flying occasionally too! So, whilst things are constantly developing, for people such as myself an IC engined car remains a necessity. I’ve been stuck with large diesel powered German saloons through work for a number of years, the 520d being my first choice although I once ventured into an A6 (spits on floor!), but a change in policy meant I could swap into something petrol powered which I much prefer (200bhp in a small hatchback is a lot more fun!). Which leads to my final point....

For day to day transport I’m happy to consider the cleanest option, so long as it’s practical. However, as a car enthusiast I’d still like to be able to go for a drive in my classic car or my 375bhp Ford Focus whenever I like. My concern is that a harmless and very enjoyable hobby/interest gets caught up in a policy area which should be aimed squarely at day to day transport. Whilst we still operate filthy steam (and diesel) locos and vintage buses, for example, it’s not as easy to differentiate between a hobby and everyday transport when it comes to private cars. I’d be interested to hear people’s thoughts on this as it’s a concern shared by many.
 

Bletchleyite

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It’s just about tolerable when travelling for leisure purposes but not when on business.

I think it would be a good thing to force your hand on that, then, as a business. The reason being that if you're making a motorway journey longer than the range of a typical premium EV (200 miles or so) and you are NOT stopping for at least a 15 minute break, you are a risk to others on the road. Whatever a certain Special Adviser might or might not have done, driving from London to Durham (say) without a stop is highly irresponsible.

Forcing people to break journeys for a decent rest every couple of hours is a good thing - and businesses will have to adapt and stop putting unreasonable requirements on their staff.

With regard to taxation, road pricing will certainly come (and will likely apply on top of fuel tax for ICE cars in order to encourage the switch) - not for punitive reasons, but because the Government won't give up about £27 billion per annum (about £400 a head, very roughly, including non-taxpayers) of tax revenue, and you can be sure that putting it on income tax or VAT instead would be a proper vote loser. (VAT revenue is about £130bn PA, so it'd mean an approximate increase from 20% to 25% VAT, for example, which is less than I thought but would still be a heavy vote-loser).
 

seagull

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Forcing people to break journeys for a decent rest every couple of hours is a good thing - and businesses will have to adapt and stop putting unreasonable requirements on their staff.

So, every 1.5 miles then on the M25?
 

Domh245

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For day to day transport I’m happy to consider the cleanest option, so long as it’s practical. However, as a car enthusiast I’d still like to be able to go for a drive in my classic car or my 375bhp Ford Focus whenever I like. My concern is that a harmless and very enjoyable hobby/interest gets caught up in a policy area which should be aimed squarely at day to day transport. Whilst we still operate filthy steam (and diesel) locos and vintage buses, for example, it’s not as easy to differentiate between a hobby and everyday transport when it comes to private cars. I’d be interested to hear people’s thoughts on this as it’s a concern shared by many.

I'd also been thinking about this recently. I wouldn't be surprised if we ultimately saw a dissociation between driving, and "personal road based transportation". The logical conclusion of that is that driving for the sake of driving is ultimately limited to track days, and/or scenic back roads with toll charges (Nordschleife/Mount Panorama style), with day to day personal road transport continuing down an EV and ultimately automated/"taxi-on-demand" path. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect those of us who enjoy driving to have to pay for the associated costs, but the upside is that this driving time would be far more enjoyable with fewer limits in place, be that speed limits or other drivers who are solely out there to get from A to B. As enjoyable as driving can be, sitting behind someone doing 30 on a fun backroad, or cruising around the M25 at (an optimistic) 50 are not want I'd want to be doing! The tricky bit is (as ever) the transitional phase, and access to the road network for "driving" cars, or whether these would have to be trailered to/from the driving venues. Whilst it's manageable on the ultimately small scale of heritage railway operations, I don't think the same will be true for roads

I suppose the issue is we've picked a terrible 'hobby', where most people view it as a tool and improvements have improved it's utility at the expense of hobbyists. The other example I was chatting to a friend about is photography, with how good phone cameras are these days, 'proper' photography equipment is becoming increasingly expensive as the market shrinks leaving only the most "hardcore" enthusiasts
 

AM9

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So many discussions of the future of motoring end up in some committed IC car drivers swearing that 'they' would/could "never" move over to EVs for reasons including the following:
a) they are too expensive to buy​
b) there aren't enough charging points​
c) they take too long to charge​
d) the cars have limited range​
etc.​
Currently, some or all of those aspects are valid when assessing the situation in 2021, (i.e. early days in the takeup of EVs). But it's the withdrawl (and eventual banning) of virtually all IC vehicles that will drive the transition away from travel being a major contributor to climate change and gross pollution. So looking at the aspects I've listed above:
a) EVs have been more expensive that IC vehicles because they are in many aspects new technology, not incrementally because
lithium batteries were first introduced in 1991 and have swept through every market that they were applied to​
3-phase ac traction motors have been in use since the 1960s​
power electronics making battery management and ac traction motors viable have been in use since the 1960s​
GPS technology for navigation, road charging, etc., have been in use for commercial and domestic use since the eraly '90s​
The main reson that EVs are more expensive is that they are new developments as a complete entity requiring new production lines and support networks which manufacturers are expecting returns on. The setup costs of IC vehicle infrastructure is no longer significantly impacting on the price of new vehicles. Manufacturing EVs is in production engineering terms cheaper than IC equivalents, which will reflect in their rapidly falling prices within the next 5 years.​
b) Charging points will meet the increase in demand, - several EV manufacturers are joining consortiums that will roll out enough points to make selling new EVs commercially viable. Every government will also make sure that there isa little disincentive as possible to EV acceptance.
c) The cost of land and the potential to sell rapid charging in competition to home charging will make high power charging stations more profitable.
d) Usable range is gradually increasing into the 200+ mile zone. Will it go to 400+ miles without a step function in battery technology, who knows, but meantime, those who have been doing 6 hour non-stop drives to the tip of Cornwall will need to acknowledge that there is a safety issue with such long journeys, and with road use being charged, it is likely that there will be mechanisms to determine irresponsible habits in the event of an incident or even prosecution for a driving offence.
For those that can't/won't accept or afford driving in the post IC era, there will be enhanced public transport, not based on the hotch potch that we have now. Public funding of good public transport will be the carrot that can offset the stick of driving persistent polluters from the transport system.
 

JohnMcL7

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I suppose the issue is we've picked a terrible 'hobby', where most people view it as a tool and improvements have improved it's utility at the expense of hobbyists. The other example I was chatting to a friend about is photography, with how good phone cameras are these days, 'proper' photography equipment is becoming increasingly expensive as the market shrinks leaving only the most "hardcore" enthusiasts
While the camera market has shrunk the cameras that have disappeared are the redundant 1/2.3in short zoom consumer compacts which no-one wanted any more since they offered nothing over a phone camera. However 'proper' photography is getting cheaper, not more expensive because there's a wide range of enthusiast cameras starting reasonably cheap with the 1in cameras, cheaper cameras are now incredibly capable compared to what they were before and FF cameras are much more affordable whereas previously they were only viable for top level pros. The main camera I use is around half the price of what a full pro camera used to be and its performance is completely insane with high speed continuous AF and burst mode with a huge buffer and all completely black out free as well. For more compact use my phone camera is great and I have a pocket FF camera which is a fantastic little device, it just amazes me what you get for the money compared to what you used to get, it's the best time there's been to be a photographer.

Going back to the topic at hand I've never come across anyone who has said they won't ever get an electric vehicle, just not one right now mostly due to costs which is fair enough. While I think my next car will likely be petrol I expect after it an electric vehicle may be a suitable choice.
 

EssexGonzo

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So many discussions of the future of motoring end up in some committed IC car drivers swearing that 'they' would/could "never" move over to EVs for reasons including the following:
a) they are too expensive to buy​
b) there aren't enough charging points​
c) they take too long to charge​
d) the cars have limited range​
etc.​
Currently, some or all of those aspects are valid when assessing the situation in 2021, (i.e. early days in the takeup of EVs). But it's the withdrawl (and eventual banning) of virtually all IC vehicles that will drive the transition away from travel being a major contributor to climate change and gross pollution. So looking at the aspects I've listed above:
a) EVs have been more expensive that IC vehicles because they are in many aspects new technology, not incrementally because
lithium batteries were first introduced in 1991 and have swept through every market that they were applied to​
3-phase ac traction motors have been in use since the 1960s​
power electronics making battery management and ac traction motors viable have been in use since the 1960s​
GPS technology for navigation, road charging, etc., have been in use for commercial and domestic use since the eraly '90s​
The main reson that EVs are more expensive is that they are new developments as a complete entity requiring new production lines and support networks which manufacturers are expecting returns on. The setup costs of IC vehicle infrastructure is no longer significantly impacting on the price of new vehicles. Manufacturing EVs is in production engineering terms cheaper than IC equivalents, which will reflect in their rapidly falling prices within the next 5 years.​
b) Charging points will meet the increase in demand, - several EV manufacturers are joining consortiums that will roll out enough points to make selling new EVs commercially viable. Every government will also make sure that there isa little disincentive as possible to EV acceptance.
c) The cost of land and the potential to sell rapid charging in competition to home charging will make high power charging stations more profitable.
d) Usable range is gradually increasing into the 200+ mile zone. Will it go to 400+ miles without a step function in battery technology, who knows, but meantime, those who have been doing 6 hour non-stop drives to the tip of Cornwall will need to acknowledge that there is a safety issue with such long journeys, and with road use being charged, it is likely that there will be mechanisms to determine irresponsible habits in the event of an incident or even prosecution for a driving offence.
For those that can't/won't accept or afford driving in the post IC era, there will be enhanced public transport, not based on the hotch potch that we have now. Public funding of good public transport will be the carrot that can offset the stick of driving persistent polluters from the transport system.

Totally agree with the overall sentiment.......my take on it is that just because I assert that an EV won’t meet my needs now (or very soon, when I get my next car), doesn’t mean that in the foreseeable future the use case for an EV - for my own needs - won’t be viable. Perhaps the car after next?

The largest factor being the charging network away from home, the secondary factor being vehicle range. The second being mitigated by an improvement in the first. As well as “actual” improvement in the primary factor, there needs to be an increase in sentiment and confidence - i.e. I really need to believe that I won’t be stranded or that travelling won’t become more difficult.

The tertiary group of factors for me includes their overall environmental impact: weight and safety, tyre pollution (due to weight), source of battery chemicals, lifetime “green” credentials - the latter is still in the “shouting match” stage of being clear.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I thought he said the same as me, namely that the EV market is not ready for him/me now but will likely be in 5 years or so, because a wider range of models will be offered than at present?

I'm not sure I agree with the "old banger" point, for three reasons:
1. EVs are mechanically simpler, so provided they don't rust away may actually last longer than ICE cars;
2. Unlike a mobile phone, EVs have battery management tech (e.g. temperature) which means the batteries do last rather better than say your crammed in, unventilated mobile phone battery sat in the sun;
3. Most "old bangers" are used as local "runarounds", so even a battery range of 10% of new (i.e. 20 miles or so) would suit a great many town and city based users who only go to the local supermarket or similar in it and could charge daily at home - but they don't seem to degenerate quite that badly quite that quickly.

Put that all together and I don't think EVs will have any effect whatsoever on switching to other modes. The only way you would engineer that is by banning ICE cars entirely (or upping fuel tax to many times its present level) in a very short timescale, which would make motoring affordable only to the middle classes and rich. But that (well, the latter) has nothing to do with EVs per-se, because you could do it anyway and the effect would still be the same.
You make a number of incorrect assumptions about older car use here. Firstly, that they're only used for local trips- sure, if someone is doing regular longer distance motorway trips then an older car probably won't be suitable, but in general they'll be used much the same as any other car. Modern cars are also mostly used for relatively short-distance trips, in general. Secondly the term "old banger" was yours not mine- there are plenty of 10+ year old cars that are in reasonable condition: often ex-fleet cars that have been well maintained during their first ownership.

The issue with the longevity of EVs is the battery life, rather than any other mechanical component. Production of the batteries is also damaging to the environment, particularly in the developing countries where much of the lithium is sourced. Until that problem is solved, banning ICE cars will keep me off the roads entirely apart from buses.
 

JohnMcL7

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I certainly don't agree that old cars are unreliable and can't be used for longer trips, my car is over ten years old now and its sole purpose is to carry big things and drive long distances. It's never had reliability issues and I'd favour its simple normally aspirated petrol engine over more complex newer engines and ironically it's had less trips to the garage in over a decade of use than a friend's Model 3 which has been back to Tesla twice on the back of a tow truck in its first year alone.
 

Bald Rick

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The issue with the longevity of EVs is the battery life, rather than any other mechanical component

If you mean the life of the battery in time terms, that’s a common myth. There’s studies out there showing that Teslas retain high levels of charge capacity well past their cycle / age expectation. A 7 year old Tesla S with 100k+ miles will still cost you over £25k, and you wouldn’t be paying that if battery life was an issue.


Production of the batteries is also damaging to the environment,

As is the process for producing petrol / diesel. (Let alone burning it).
 

DustyBin

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As is the process for producing petrol / diesel. (Let alone burning it).

True, I think the difference here is the environmental damage is constantly publicised and well understood, whereas a lot of people see battery power as a 'no cost' option.
 

EssexGonzo

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True, I think the difference here is the environmental damage is constantly publicised and well understood, whereas a lot of people see battery power as a 'no cost' option.

And a “no environmental impact” option (or even a net negative impact) which is absolutely not the case.
 

Lucan

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if you're making a motorway journey longer than the range of a typical premium EV (200 miles or so) and you are NOT stopping for at least a 15 minute break, you are a risk to others on the road.
Yes, but I like to take my breaks at places of my choosing, which are not busy concrete parking lots with a hamburger cafe selling over-priced coffee; and those are the places that chargers are most likely to be found. 15 minutes is very optimistic anyway.

On my journeys, I aim to stop at remote country lay-bys (possibly unofficial) and village or country inns. I have several regular such places on my journeys, some not far off the motorway. These places are either never likely to have charging points, or if they do they will already be occupied. For work I often go to an industrial site during its periodic maintenance shut-down, and an adjacent farmer's field is temporarily hired for the extra parking needed. Charging will become a nightmare as more and more people get EVs, "charger rage" is already a recognised thing, for example EVs being left in hotel charging bays all night when they only needed an hour. The provision of charging points will never be enough for the demand because of the space constraints alone.

Perhaps I'm just unsociable. When I use a car park, like at a supermarket, I park in the a remote part for several reasons*. Yet most people want to park as close to the establishment's door as they can - and that is where the electric charging bays tend to be, supposedly as an favour. You can keep it.

I would get an EV like a shot if there were a system of exchanging the batteries, so a change would take no longer than a petrol re-fuel. You would stop over a bay where a machine would exchange from below and take the discharged one into a building for recharging. You would pay according to the measure of how much your battery had used. The batteries would be a standard fit module and your car/van would take one, two or three of them according to size. This was the original idea for EVs, but regrettably fell by the wayside as makers cannot agree on standards. They can't even agree on a plug standard, Tesla being the worst offender I understand.

* People not scraping past with trolleys
People not looking into your car to see what you have in it
Space around you to open the doors wide and to load stuff
Less likely to be run over by cars manoeuvring
I could go on
 

EssexGonzo

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I think it would be a good thing to force your hand on that, then, as a business. The reason being that if you're making a motorway journey longer than the range of a typical premium EV (200 miles or so) and you are NOT stopping for at least a 15 minute break, you are a risk to others on the road. Whatever a certain Special Adviser might or might not have done, driving from London to Durham (say) without a stop is highly irresponsible.

Forcing people to break journeys for a decent rest every couple of hours is a good thing - and businesses will have to adapt and stop putting unreasonable requirements on their staff.

Not to mention the limitations of my bladder.

However, this is where “charging anxiety“ comes in. Will the charger work, will it be busy, have I got the right app for this particular charging company, will it deliver the promised charging speed I need for my stop not to be 2 hours long, will there be an ICE car parked in the EV space? That sort of thing.

Its coming but not there yet.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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What if one unexpectedly gets stuck in a jam in winter, just before the place where one intended to charge the battery? How much energy does heating the vehicle use?

Oversold? Yes they have been. It's the economy stupid, sadly. Unfortunately mr tesla is planning to make vast numbers of them at Gruenheide near Berlin, with lots of financial support from taxpayers.

It would be best if vehicles still being produced with infernal combustion engines could be designed so that the drive/power module can be replaced, when suitable electric power units are available they could be swapped at Halfords, no need to get a whole new vehicle. In general, fewer motor vehicles of whatever sort would be better than more.
 

DustyBin

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And a “no environmental impact” option (or even a net negative impact) which is absolutely not the case.

Sorry that's what I meant, "no environmental cost".

Yes, but I like to take my breaks at places of my choosing, which are not busy concrete parking lots with a hamburger cafe selling over-priced coffee; and those are the places that chargers are most likely to be found. 15 minutes is very optimistic anyway.

On my journeys, I aim to stop at remote country lay-bys (possibly unofficial) and village or country inns. I have several regular such places on my journeys, some not far off the motorway. These places are either never likely to have charging points, or if they do they will already be occupied. For work I often go to an industrial site during its periodic maintenance shut-down, and an adjacent farmer's field is temporarily hired for the extra parking needed. Charging will become a nightmare as more and more people get EVs, "charger rage" is already a recognised thing, for example EVs being left in hotel charging bays all night when they only needed an hour. The provision of charging points will never be enough for the demand because of the space constraints alone.

Perhaps I'm just unsociable. When I use a car park, like at a supermarket, I park in the a remote part for several reasons*. Yet most people want to park as close to the establishment's door as they can - and that is where the electric charging bays tend to be, supposedly as an favour. You can keep it.

I would get an EV like a shot if there were a system of exchanging the batteries, so a change would take no longer than a petrol re-fuel. You would stop over a bay where a machine would exchange from below and take the discharged one into a building for recharging. You would pay according to the measure of how much your battery had used. The batteries would be a standard fit module and your car/van would take one, two or three of them according to size. This was the original idea for EVs, but regrettably fell by the wayside as makers cannot agree on standards. They can't even agree on a plug standard, Tesla being the worst offender I understand.

* People not scraping past with trolleys
People not looking into your car to see what you have in it
Space around you to open the doors wide and to load stuff
Less likely to be run over by cars manoeuvring
I could go on

I'd echo pretty much all of that!

Yes they have been. Unfortunately mr tesla is planning to make vast numbers of them at Gruenheide near Berlin, with lots of financial support from taxpayers.

It would be best if vehicles still being produced with infernal combustion engines could be designed so that the drive/power module can be replaced, when suitable electric power units are available they could be swapped at Halfords, no need to get a whole new vehicle. In general, fewer motor vehicles of whatever sort would be better than more.

Have you seen them try and change a light bulb on anything slightly out of the ordinary?! :lol:
 

Bletchleyite

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It would be best if vehicles still being produced with infernal combustion engines could be designed so that the drive/power module can be replaced, when suitable electric power units are available they could be swapped at Halfords, no need to get a whole new vehicle. In general, fewer motor vehicles of whatever sort would be better than more.

There's no real need for that because the lifetime of a typical ICE car is short enough to make a sensible phaseover period work. It's not like trains where you expect it to last 40 years (which is why building classes 195-197 as straight DMUs was maybe a bit silly), it's more like 10-15. Yes, the odd person still drives a 1990s car now (it often works for those who have the skills to maintain it well themselves), but not many people do.

For classics I can see conversion kits appearing though you'd likely have a short range and lose the boot. Someone has already converted a Land Rover Defender using parts from a used Nissan Leaf, it's on YouTube somewhere.
 

DustyBin

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There's no real need for that because the lifetime of a typical ICE car is short enough to make a sensible phaseover period work. It's not like trains where you expect it to last 40 years (which is why building classes 195-197 as straight DMUs was maybe a bit silly), it's more like 10-15. Yes, the odd person still drives a 1990s car now (it often works for those who have the skills to maintain it well themselves), but not many people do.

For classics I can see conversion kits appearing though you'd likely have a short range and lose the boot. Someone has already converted a Land Rover Defender using parts from a used Nissan Leaf, it's on YouTube somewhere.

There have been quite a few conversions carried out as 'technology demonstrators' but I can't see it catching on. It detracts too much from the originality and character of the vehicle. It's no different to steam locomotives or classic diesels; the sounds and smells are central to the experience!
 

Harpers Tate

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....busy concrete parking lots with a hamburger cafe selling over-priced coffee......are the places that chargers are most likely to be found. 15 minutes is very optimistic anyway.

On my journeys, I aim to stop at ...... village or country inns.
I'd suggest that you investigate where charge points are actually located. There are many units at locations other than motorway services (etc) including (as you hint) at country inns and hotels; town and village car parks and so on. And the numbers of these are on the rise all the time. I can't speak for your exact typical routes, of course; my comments are general and offered with the experience of over 3 years exclusively EV use. ~10k/year pre-covid. Local example (to me): Asda supermarket (with a cafe for cheap coffee and free loos). 200 yards to a pub. 500 yards to a Sainsburys. 400 yards to a McDonalds. 3 x 50kW chargers on site. I'm guessing the country is riddled with parallels. I have never used a Motorway services (or similar).

As to people unnecessarily occupying points for longer than they need: it's common (but not universal) practice that outlets charge a penal per-hour (like £10/hr) rate after an initial period (60/90 minutes, say). It doesn't (can't) prevent someone unplugging (ending the session) and leaving their car put; that ultimately is down to the site's owner to police.

.....It is not going to be done anytime soon.....
"Soon" I'd venture to suggest is probably exactly when it should be done. There are, I believe, various grants and incentives on offer. Once "soon" is past, they may no longer be there. Maybe you should get the co-op to investigate what's available?
 

AM9

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Totally agree with the overall sentiment.......my take on it is that just because I assert that an EV won’t meet my needs now (or very soon, when I get my next car), doesn’t mean that in the foreseeable future the use case for an EV - for my own needs - won’t be viable. Perhaps the car after next?

The largest factor being the charging network away from home, the secondary factor being vehicle range. The second being mitigated by an improvement in the first. As well as “actual” improvement in the primary factor, there needs to be an increase in sentiment and confidence - i.e. I really need to believe that I won’t be stranded or that travelling won’t become more difficult.

The tertiary group of factors for me includes their overall environmental impact: weight and safety, tyre pollution (due to weight), source of battery chemicals, lifetime “green” credentials - the latter is still in the “shouting match” stage of being clear.
Clearly you aren't one of the "committed IC drivers that I was describing as you can see the future of your motoring in EV vehicles. Being stranded will become more likely in IC cars in the not too distant future as the viability of selling hydrocarbon fuel for a living is more and more difficult. We're already seeing a year on year reduction in the number of fuel outlets and even a few ex-service stations that have gone over to all EV charging, - high-power of course.
 
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The number of filling stations (petrol & diesel) in the UK, has fallen from a peak of around 40,000 in the 1960’s to just over 8,000 today.
Many small, local filling stations, including village petrol pumps and those at car dealerships, closed in the 1970’s, 80’s and 90’s.
Even after consolidation and concentration into larger filling station sites, such as those at supermarkets, there has been a drop from over 18,000 in 1990, down to 13,107 in 2000 and further down to 8,380 in 2020.
 
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