Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Journeyman]

The most environmentally friendly car is the one you already have. Replacing a perfectly adequate petrol car with an electric one is a very environmentally damaging move. My current petrol car is seven years old, owned since new. I'm going to keep using it until it's no longer economical to keep it going.

 

[DustyBin]

The number of filling stations (petrol & diesel) in the UK, has fallen from a peak of around 40,000 in the 1960’s to just over 8,000 today.
Many small, local filling stations, including village petrol pumps and those at car dealerships, closed in the 1970’s, 80’s and 90’s.
Even after consolidation and concentration into larger filling station sites, such as those at supermarkets, there has been a drop from over 18,000 in 1990, down to 13,107 in 2000 and further down to 8,380 in 2020.

Yes a lot of the filling stations we have lost have been the type you describe. Meanwhile, Shell have just opened up a large new-build filling station a mile or so from my house which is rather handy as I go through at least one full tank of V-Power every week!

The most environmentally friendly car is the one you already have. Replacing a perfectly adequate petrol car with an electric one is a very environmentally damaging move. My current petrol car is seven years old, owned since new. I'm going to keep using it until it's no longer economical to keep it going.

There’s “increasing evidence” (perhaps conveniently so) that this isn’t strictly true, however it’s dependant on the type of vehicle and more importantly usage. Again though, embodied carbon is rarely discussed as it doesn’t suit the narrative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The number of filling stations (petrol & diesel) in the UK, has fallen from a peak of around 40,000 in the 1960’s to just over 8,000 today.
Many small, local filling stations, including village petrol pumps and those at car dealerships, closed in the 1970’s, 80’s and 90’s.
Even after consolidation and concentration into larger filling station sites, such as those at supermarkets, there has been a drop from over 18,000 in 1990, down to 13,107 in 2000 and further down to 8,380 in 2020.

I've certainly noticed that. One thing that is very surprising is just how few there are (4 I think) on the open stretch of the A5 between MK and the Midlands where you'd think they would do OK.

I suspect the future of the large "premium" sites is to convert into convenience stores (which is how they now make most of their money - the supermarkets have taken most of the profit out of actual fuel sales) with a small car park with fast charging points and a sit-in Starbucks style cafe to sit in for half an hour while your car charges. That is, mini motorway service stations.

There’s “increasing evidence” (perhaps conveniently so) that this isn’t strictly true, however it’s dependant on the type of vehicle and more importantly usage. Again though, embodied carbon is rarely discussed as it doesn’t suit the narrative.

Partly because it doesn't deal at all with one of the two issues - particulates, NOx, SO2 etc in cities, which is actively killing people and many think is a cause of the high prevalence of asthma at present. The carbon issue is an issue, but it is very slightly less pressing, so it might actually be worth taking a slight hit on it to get the fleet replaced, at which point things settle back down again (a bit like the slamdoor train fleet replacement, or the very quick introduction of low-floor buses due to the major benefit).

 

[DustyBin]

Partly because it doesn't deal at all with one of the two issues - particulates, NOx, SO2 etc in cities, which is actively killing people and many think is a cause of the high prevalence of asthma at present. The carbon issue is an issue, but it is very slightly less pressing, so it might actually be worth taking a slight hit on it to get the fleet replaced, at which point things settle back down again (a bit like the slamdoor train fleet replacement, or the very quick introduction of low-floor buses due to the major benefit).

Without dragging us too far OT, I blame the rapid increase in sales of diesel powered cars from the turn of the century(ish) more than anything. I remember Blair telling everybody to buy a diesel as they were better for the environment and thinking “what the?”.... At the time, I worked on diesel engines for a living and was well aware of the pollution they caused. My prediction that they’d fall out of favour and be replaced by small capacity turbo petrols came true eventually, to an extent anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Without dragging us too far OT, I blame the rapid increase in sales of diesel powered cars from the turn of the century(ish) more than anything. I remember Blair telling everybody to buy a diesel as they were better for the environment and thinking “what the?”.... At the time, I worked on diesel engines for a living and was well aware of the pollution they caused. My prediction that they’d fall out of favour and be replaced by small capacity turbo petrols came true eventually, to an extent anyway.

Yes, petrols are better than diesels in that regard, but electrics are better than all of them. We really should be aiming at electric-only in cities on a far shorter timescale than the decarbonisation measures.

 

[DustyBin]

Yes, petrols are better than diesels in that regard, but electrics are better than all of them. We really should be aiming at electric-only in cities on a far shorter timescale than the decarbonisation measures.

It that case, how do people get into cities if they have an IC engined car? Don’t get me wrong, if I lived in a city like London and made relatively short journeys around the city, or commuted in from a suburb, I’d give serious consideration, even at this point, to buying at least a hybrid or even full electric car for that purpose. Other than initial purchase cost it’s a win-win. However, the reality of my situation is somewhat different and if the city council were to ban IC engined cars from entering the city centre I’d go even less than I already do (my weekly visits have become more like monthly due to parking charges and silly one way systems etc.).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It that case, how do people get into cities if they have an IC engined car?

Park and ride? Public transport?

Cars in city centres are not a good thing generally - it isn't just about pollution but also the impact on limited space (i.e. creating space for people, not vehicles). But for those who really need to, to me plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) are the short term answer. They are actually slightly worse on carbon due to the weight of the batteries than a pure petrol, but they deal with the most pressing issue, and they don't need a large battery range (50 miles or so would do in most cases) because once out of the city you fire up the petrol engine to charge the battery (running at optimum speed for efficiency, not directly connected to the wheels).

I'm actually slightly surprised that the Government didn't go for a phased approach, such as all new cars to be PHEV or electric by 2030, and by the same date no cars running on ICEs at all in the major city centres (I'm thinking London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol, Leeds, Sheffield and Newcastle, as far as England goes, but perhaps add large towns like MK and Northampton in a second phase by 2035?) but PHEVs encouraged, and a second phase of stopping selling cars with ICEs entirely by 2040, say. That would also give time for the charging infrastructure to build.

 

[ic31420]

8 years ago I bought my current car second hand 4 years old. It's a ford focus diesel dpf. Despite being a Titanium model with all the toys it cost me £5 at the time as the bodywork wasnt what it should have been and it had high miles and no service history.

Changes in my lifestyle mean that my mileage has dropped from about 12-15k to under 5k as I have started to cycle to work (it's quicker) and as I have become increasingly parsimonious. I used to drive about 25k a year for a job and I'm over the driving thing now it's a chore.

In the last 12months the car has covered 4200 miles with 2200 of those being in three weeks last July when we travelled around car boot camping.

Normally it can sit on the drive and not move for 2 weeks at a time. When the MOT or insurance runs out I just don't bother doing it until I actually need it I've saved about 9months of insurance doing this in the last 3 years.

Other than mot £40 a year, and insurance £200 a year and tyres etc the car has cost me very little over 8years. I blown turbo (new core) cost me £200 a few years ago some injector seals (under a fiver) and a blown intercooler hose £25 are the only things that come to mind (though it does need a new heater resistor and needs repairs to the clock module at the moment I'd expect them to cost less than £20).
It also had a new windscreen after I dropped some ladders on it but I can't blame that on the car.

When I bought the car in 2012 I was of the view this would be my last traditional ICE car and my next would be EV or at the least hybrid.

Now The focus is getting tired and will need replacing. Ideally I'd like to get a couple more years out of it but I'm unsentimental and will be lead by costs.

I'll be looking for a car as new as possible around the £5.5k mark. With two young kids and camping hols I'd like an estate and something frugal. The duty cycle of occasional long runs and fee.if any jouneys under 30mins suits a diesel but I'm indifferent. I want a car not an SUV (ideally I'd like a crew cab car derived van but insurance costs and tax make that inexpedient - used to have an LPG combo van). I'm not into VAG or German cars, I think they're over rated and over priced. But then I look at a car and think bits a tool and can't imagine why anyone would buy a 60k Jag to drive to work and back every day when something for a third of the price does the same job. Still wouldnt do for us all to be the same.

The key thing and deal beaker is I need a secure roof rack. My focus is great as the roof rack bolts on with concealed bolts. My Mrs has a Honda jazz its a great capacious car but it has no mount points for a roof rack.
On the upside I have no issue with buying high milage cars (as my milage is minimal) but want to know the history. I.e. I don't want ex police or ex taxi.

Anyway to bring this back to topic a few weeks ago I had a look around at what was available. There are a few old Prius around and a few old leafs, but theyre old and worn but oftenn in need of maintainance. If I had been minded to buy I would have bought the 66 plate Hyundai I40 mild hybrid with 130k on the clock.
From what I saw not many EVs will take a roof rack or a towbar. They're all about streamline and saving weight.

I'm not sure how well an ev would take to sitting on the drive for 2weeks at a time.

PCP or Lease or hire doesn't work for me there is no value in it. I see no value in having a new/latest model or reg car on the drive ( and bear in mind the capital cost of my current car will be less that £500 per year when I bin it).

So it looks like the EV revolution is going to leave me in a quandary in a few years. As it stands my next car will likely be an ICE or mild hybrid.

An end of the street car pool would work for me or one of those schemes a bit like the hire bikes in Manchester a few years ago where you have an app and you hire a car by the min. The app directs you to the nearest parked available car.

But I can't see this catching on in suburbia and with the British who have a funny relationship with their cars and see them as an extension of their personality.


A couple of other points. A colleague of mine has a Leaf, he's had a few now, he lives in Preston and has family in the south coast. He visits them a couple of times a year. I asked him about the range issue he simply explained it's not an issue. He sets off from Preston with the kids, after about 90mins one of them is usually wanting the toilet, so they stop plug Mavis in (the car is called Mavis) and go for a slash. By the time two kids and two adults have been relieved possibly had a sandwich and a leg stretch Mavis is filling up nicely. So they get in and do the same again. In view of that I'm not particularly range anxious.

Any thoughts on the ability of the electrical infrastructure (cables in the street) to be able to supply the charge demand that is sure to show soon?

As a final point isn't it amazing the life of modern cars. When I was a kid 6year old cars where knackered rust buckets yet here I am driving a 13yr old car that's still in goodish nick with just some minor scanning. Despite not exactly being looked after. As such modern second hand seem to be holding value a lot better.

*Ideally I'd like a campervan in the next 5 years hopefully when the current fashion for them has died down meaning there are some bargains around. I'd have thought that ev would be a good solution for a camper, generally not in a rush to get places etc. But it seems that the base vans arnt coming out as electrics as the weight is an issue.

 

[DustyBin]

Park and ride? Public transport?

Cars in city centres are not a good thing generally - it isn't just about pollution but also the impact on limited space (i.e. creating space for people, not vehicles). But for those who really need to, to me plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) are the short term answer. They are actually slightly worse on carbon due to the weight of the batteries than a pure petrol, but they deal with the most pressing issue, and they don't need a large battery range (50 miles or so would do in most cases) because once out of the city you fire up the petrol engine to charge the battery (running at optimum speed for efficiency, not directly connected to the wheels).

I'm actually slightly surprised that the Government didn't go for a phased approach, such as all new cars to be PHEV or electric by 2030, and by the same date no cars running on ICEs at all in the major city centres (I'm thinking London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol, Leeds, Sheffield and Newcastle, as far as England goes, but perhaps add large towns like MK and Northampton in a second phase by 2035?) but PHEVs encouraged, and a second phase of stopping selling cars with ICEs entirely by 2040, say. That would also give time for the charging infrastructure to build.

The problem with public transport (where I live) is it’s slow, unreliable, inconvenient, uncomfortable and expensive to boot. It’s just not an attractive option on any level, that’s the harsh reality.

I did consider a hybrid car last year (either a 330e or 530e) but as well as the high purchase cost my colleagues who have them go through fuel at an alarming rate. To be honest, they’re a bit of a con and the only real benefit is the tax benefit.... That said, they come into their own if you make short trips and actually plug the things in(!) which is more the kind of usage we’re talking about.

I think the 2030 deadline is typical Boris bluster and grandstanding and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it’s pushed back by the next government or indeed PM. I’ve seen nothing so far to suggest it’s actually achievable, but it looks good which is all that matters!

 

[ABB125]

8 years ago I bought my current car second hand 4 years old. It's a ford focus diesel dpf. Despite being a Titanium model with all the toys it cost me £5 at the time as the bodywork wasnt what it should have been and it had high miles and no service history.

Changes in my lifestyle mean that my mileage has dropped from about 12-15k to under 5k as I have started to cycle to work (it's quicker) and as I have become increasingly parsimonious. I used to drive about 25k a year for a job and I'm over the driving thing now it's a chore.

In the last 12months the car has covered 4200 miles with 2200 of those being in three weeks last July when we travelled around car boot camping.

Normally it can sit on the drive and not move for 2 weeks at a time. When the MOT or insurance runs out I just don't bother doing it until I actually need it I've saved about 9months of insurance doing this in the last 3 years.

Other than mot £40 a year, and insurance £200 a year and tyres etc the car has cost me very little over 8years. I blown turbo (new core) cost me £200 a few years ago some injector seals (under a fiver) and a blown intercooler hose £25 are the only things that come to mind (though it does need a new heater resistor and needs repairs to the clock module at the moment I'd expect them to cost less than £20).
It also had a new windscreen after I dropped some ladders on it but I can't blame that on the car.

When I bought the car in 2012 I was of the view this would be my last traditional ICE car and my next would be EV or at the least hybrid.

Now The focus is getting tired and will need replacing. Ideally I'd like to get a couple more years out of it but I'm unsentimental and will be lead by costs.

I'll be looking for a car as new as possible around the £5.5k mark. With two young kids and camping hols I'd like an estate and something frugal. The duty cycle of occasional long runs and fee.if any jouneys under 30mins suits a diesel but I'm indifferent. I want a car not an SUV (ideally I'd like a crew cab car derived van but insurance costs and tax make that inexpedient - used to have an LPG combo van). I'm not into VAG or German cars, I think they're over rated and over priced. But then I look at a car and think bits a tool and can't imagine why anyone would buy a 60k Jag to drive to work and back every day when something for a third of the price does the same job. Still wouldnt do for us all to be the same.

The key thing and deal beaker is I need a secure roof rack. My focus is great as the roof rack bolts on with concealed bolts. My Mrs has a Honda jazz its a great capacious car but it has no mount points for a roof rack.
On the upside I have no issue with buying high milage cars (as my milage is minimal) but want to know the history. I.e. I don't want ex police or ex taxi.

Anyway to bring this back to topic a few weeks ago I had a look around at what was available. There are a few old Prius around and a few old leafs, but theyre old and worn but oftenn in need of maintainance. If I had been minded to buy I would have bought the 66 plate Hyundai I40 mild hybrid with 130k on the clock.
From what I saw not many EVs will take a roof rack or a towbar. They're all about streamline and saving weight.

I'm not sure how well an ev would take to sitting on the drive for 2weeks at a time.

PCP or Lease or hire doesn't work for me there is no value in it. I see no value in having a new/latest model or reg car on the drive ( and bear in mind the capital cost of my current car will be less that £500 per year when I bin it).

So it looks like the EV revolution is going to leave me in a quandary in a few years. As it stands my next car will likely be an ICE or mild hybrid.

An end of the street car pool would work for me or one of those schemes a bit like the hire bikes in Manchester a few years ago where you have an app and you hire a car by the min. The app directs you to the nearest parked available car.

But I can't see this catching on in suburbia and with the British who have a funny relationship with their cars and see them as an extension of their personality.


A couple of other points. A colleague of mine has a Leaf, he's had a few now, he lives in Preston and has family in the south coast. He visits them a couple of times a year. I asked him about the range issue he simply explained it's not an issue. He sets off from Preston with the kids, after about 90mins one of them is usually wanting the toilet, so they stop plug Mavis in (the car is called Mavis) and go for a slash. By the time two kids and two adults have been relieved possibly had a sandwich and a leg stretch Mavis is filling up nicely. So they get in and do the same again. In view of that I'm not particularly range anxious.

Any thoughts on the ability of the electrical infrastructure (cables in the street) to be able to supply the charge demand that is sure to show soon?

As a final point isn't it amazing the life of modern cars. When I was a kid 6year old cars where knackered rust buckets yet here I am driving a 13yr old car that's still in goodish nick with just some minor scanning. Despite not exactly being looked after. As such modern second hand seem to be holding value a lot better.

*Ideally I'd like a campervan in the next 5 years hopefully when the current fashion for them has died down meaning there are some bargains around. I'd have thought that ev would be a good solution for a camper, generally not in a rush to get places etc. But it seems that the base vans arnt coming out as electrics as the weight is an issue.

I know you said you don't want VAG, but Skoda Superb? My dad's had one for the last six years and hasn't had any problems with it.

 

[ic31420]

It that case, how do people get into cities if they have an IC engined car? Don’t get me wrong, if I lived in a city like London and made relatively short journeys around the city, or commuted in from a suburb, I’d give serious consideration, even at this point, to buying at least a hybrid or even full electric car for that purpose. Other than initial purchase cost it’s a win-win. However, the reality of my situation is somewhat different and if the city council were to ban IC engined cars from entering the city centre I’d go even less than I already do (my weekly visits have become more like monthly due to parking charges and silly one way systems etc.).

I live on the Lancashire / Greater Manchester Boundary. If I want to go into the local town centre (5miles) I either cycle as I will later today to collect a parcel from Next. Or get the bus. (Annoyingly the local Pres Railway when running is not a sensible option purely down to the price despite running almost door to door).
Occasionally I will walk when time isnt pressing.
I would never take the car.

I occasionally have to go to Manchester city centre that's about 17miles. I have a few options
Cycle (often same sort of time as car)
Bus then Tram
Cycle then Tram
Cycle to nearby rural station and then train
Cycle to Town Station and train.
Drive to suburban station spend ages trying to park then train.
Never would I take the car

The downer for the tram is not being able to take the bike, so I tend to do the train options.


There is a certain mindset change that needs to happen, I think the younger generation are more open to it but people of the baby boomer generation are totally wedded to the car and can't get their heads around it. My father for one. It would take him 5 mins to walk to his local aldi and at least 10mins to drive. He drives whatever the weather no matter if he is getting a monthly shop or a single banana.

I took a workmate to Manchester a few days ago. Met him in the work carpark and he automatically went to one of our job pool cars while I walked off to street (we are anout 5mins walk from a station with a direct Manchester service) he grumbled and groused about "why don't we take the car" "were not paying for the car so use it" it'll take forever on the train" yadayada. He spent the entire journey back telling how he was amazed about how quick and easy it was and now he had time to do other stuff.

There is a mindset change there as well..

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the 2030 deadline is typical Boris bluster and grandstanding and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it’s pushed back by the next government or indeed PM. I’ve seen nothing so far to suggest it’s actually achievable, but it looks good which is all that matters!

The 2030 deadline is for no sale of new vehicles and I think that is entirely feasible. All existing ones can remain on the road, give or take cities doing their own restrictions in their centres as London has (I would far rather this was national policy, but even if it isn't it will still happen progressively).

The upside of doing it this way is that in poorer rural areas where at-the-point-of-use pollution is less significant and charging infrastructure lacking ICEs can stick around a little longer without damaging the whole programme.

 

[AM9]

The problem with public transport (where I live) is it’s slow, unreliable, inconvenient, uncomfortable and expensive to boot. It’s just not an attractive option on any level, that’s the harsh reality.

I did consider a hybrid car last year (either a 330e or 530e) but as well as the high purchase cost my colleagues who have them go through fuel at an alarming rate. To be honest, they’re a bit of a con and the only real benefit is the tax benefit.... That said, they come into their own if you make short trips and actually plug the things in(!) which is more the kind of usage we’re talking about.

I think the 2030 deadline is typical Boris bluster and grandstanding and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it’s pushed back by the next government or indeed PM. I’ve seen nothing so far to suggest it’s actually achievable, but it looks good which is all that matters!

Which is one of the points that I addressed in post #44, - public transport today is inadequate for current demands in many areas. If as I suspect, part of the mandated reduction, (and ultimately removal, in most areas), of IC personal transport, there needs to be a significant reduction of overall use as well. In order for such an aspiration to be delivered, public transport will need to address that demand. That would be unlikely if the usual right-wing political forces insist that everything makes a profit in its own right, but as rail privatisation has shown, public transport benefits far more that those using it and will be key to meeting environmental obligations in the future.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I took a workmate to Manchester a few days ago. Met him in the work carpark and he automatically went to one of our job pool cars while I walked off to street (we are anout 5mins walk from a station with a direct Manchester service) he grumbled and groused about "why don't we take the car" "were not paying for the car so use it" it'll take forever on the train" yadayada. He spent the entire journey back telling how he was amazed about how quick and easy it was and now he had time to do other stuff.

One of the issues is that Manchester's local rail service has for a long time been a load of utter dross, with a diet of severely overcrowded, noisy and smelly Pacers and Sprinters. It's slowly improving with the coming of 195s and the likes, but it is hard to change the impression people have of it as it was so bad for so long. I do think this is one reason Metrolinking lines is successful - it's something shiny and new, and so people are moved to try it because it is. They might also be happy with a Class 195, but they don't try it because how rubbish things were is ingrained in their mind.

This is also why Ray Stenning's "creating desire" thing with buses works - he makes a big, visible change which prompts people to try again. Stagecoach painting something in a slightly different toothpaste-based livery just won't do that even if it was decent to start with.

Of course with EVs that means more electrification, as people will quite rightly point out that a diesel Class 195 is more polluting than an electric car, and at the point of use (cities, where it matters) they'd be right, too. EVs (including electric buses) are a huge threat to the railway, particularly branch lines running old DMUs with low loadings. The only answer for urban rail is electrification - a major project and quick.

 

[ic31420]

Which is one of the points that I addressed in post #44, - public transport today is inadequate for current demands in many areas. If as I suspect, part of the mandated reduction, (and ultimately removal, in most areas), of IC personal transport, there needs to be a significant reduction of overall use as well. In order for such an aspiration to be delivered, public transport will need to address that demand. That would be unlikely if the usual right-wing political forces insist that everything makes a profit in its own right, but as rail privatisation has shown, public transport benefits far more that those using it and will be key to meeting environmental obligations in the future.

I think something that is frequently overlooked is that we all simply need to travel less.

I've said it before and I'll no doubt say it again and bore you all to tears but the age of cheap travel is coming to an end.

In all aspects of our life we need to travel less with a consequential reduction in emissions.

Yes public transport needs to be improved, but for many it is an excuse. My father mentioned earlier has a free bus pass, he lives 3min walk away from a bus stop that see a quality bus ever 10mins. Yet he uses the car.
Equally we holiday with friends in a small hamlet in Cumbria, there is no bus and the nearest shop about 2miles away, school probably 5 main town about 12. An hourly bus is never going to be a sensible proposition at that place let alone something more frequent.

There needs to be a shift in thinking using walking to local shops rather than driving to the supermarket 3miles away past 4 small shops. Sending the kids to the nearby school. Decentralisation of business (and government) back to local offices etc.

I work with people who live 50 miles away and drive each day to do the same job they could do on their door step for the same pay with the same terms, it is almost environmentally criminal and should be pretty much outlawed.

 

[DustyBin]

I think something that is frequently overlooked is that we all simply need to travel less.

I've said it before and I'll no doubt say it again and bore you all to tears but the age of cheap travel is coming to an end.

In all aspects of our life we need to travel less with a consequential reduction in emissions.

Yes public transport needs to be improved, but for many it is an excuse. My father mentioned earlier has a free bus pass, he lives 3min walk away from a bus stop that see a quality bus ever 10mins. Yet he uses the car.
Equally we holiday with friends in a small hamlet in Cumbria, there is no bus and the nearest shop about 2miles away, school probably 5 main town about 12. An hourly bus is never going to be a sensible proposition at that place let alone something more frequent.

There needs to be a shift in thinking using walking to local shops rather than driving to the supermarket 3miles away past 4 small shops. Sending the kids to the nearby school. Decentralisation of business (and government) back to local offices etc.

I work with people who live 50 miles away and drive each day to do the same job they could do on their door step for the same pay with the same terms, it is almost environmentally criminal and should be pretty much outlawed.

I actually agree in principle, and try to do my bit in this regard. I don’t like making very short car journeys, it’s highly inefficient as well as increasing wear and tear.

 

[AM9]

The 2030 deadline is for no sale of new vehicles and I think that is entirely feasible. All existing ones can remain on the road, give or take cities doing their own restrictions in their centres as London has (I would far rather this was national policy, but even if it isn't it will still happen progressively).

The upside of doing it this way is that in poorer rural areas where at-the-point-of-use pollution is less significant and charging infrastructure lacking ICEs can stick around a little longer without damaging the whole programme.

That's the likely official position, but owning, using and keeping a pre-2030 IC vehicle will become increasingly difficult as time goes on:

a) fuel will continue to attract duty - presumably the ridiculous freeze against inflation will soon be removed​

b) for traffic congestion reasons, road use will be applied to all vehicles, (so the fuel duty will be an optional additional cost of motoring)​

c) access to urban roads will be increasingly out of bounds to IC vehicles, - there is provision in law for LAs to protect the local environment, greatly reinforced since the coroner's report on Ella Adoo-Kissi-Debrah's untimely death that traffic emissions were a factor.​

d) the supply of replacement parts for IC vehicles will dry up as manufaturers have no ongoing production, and third party sources will see a rapidly shrinking market for their trade in alternative parts. It is unlikerly that a 'Cuba' type of motoring subculture will survive long because most global sources of engines from other will also dry up.​

e) there may be social pressures for non-essential IC vehicle usage to stop as the impact of climate change really starts to bite.​

The average age of private cars in the UK is currentlyy about 8 years, which although higher than it was in 1994, is certainly likely to fall rapidly with the above disincentives leading to large scale dumping of second cars as well as making the main family car an EV type thereby resulting in a net saving.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There needs to be a shift in thinking using walking to local shops rather than driving to the supermarket 3miles away past 4 small shops.

That's already shifting. In the 1990s-2000s, local shops were grim, expensive, cash only and had a poor range. The Express/Metro/Co-op formats have seen huge growth recently and do provide for the "delivery of bulk non-perishables and freezer food once a month, fresh top-ups locally" model, which is basically what I do. And with more home-working, the local "butcher, baker and candlestick maker", as it were, may see a renaissance it lost when it ceased to be the norm for one parent to stay at home as a homemaker.

Sending the kids to the nearby school.

Yes, I think we need a policy of improving all schools to the same high standard so that's the done thing again, and provision of facilities for children walking and cycling to them on their own (at least from junior level up) is the norm.

Decentralisation of business (and government) back to local offices etc.

I think that may be more like working from home more, but then occasional but longer journeys.

I work with people who live 50 miles away and drive each day to do the same job they could do on their door step for the same pay with the same terms, it is almost environmentally criminal and should be pretty much outlawed.

That's not always that simple, but in the case of chain stores e.g. supermarkets they really should be incentivised to be more flexible about staff redeployment to reduce that.

That's the likely official position, but owning, using and keeping a pre-2030 IC vehicle will become increasingly difficult as time goes on

I completely agree with all those points. That "slow phasing" is likely to be the best way to achieve what is a fairly large change - a bit like the way the roll-out of low floor buses was led by the cities with eventual cascades to rural areas.

The one thing I would say is that having multiple LEZ/ULEZ standards is a mess, so I think there should be a national standard and a national charging, signage and enforcement system (probably based on TfL's as why reinvent the wheel?), with local authorities just being able to choose the areas to which each level (LEZ or ULEZ, and possibly a future ZEZ (zero emissions zone)) applies, the precise price level and when it starts. It's otherwise too confusing, and you might (as we nearly did in Bristol) end up with cars you could use in Bristol and not London, and cars you could use in London and not Bristol, which might have some benefits but is ultimately too confusing and likely to turn people against the idea.

I don't see the congestion charge as needing replication (i.e. to reduce the number of vehicles for non-pollution-related reasons); I'd do that instead by a combination of road closures (cycles and pedestrians only) and a tax, with automatic escalator, on the provision of parking spaces in city centres, whether public car parks, on-street or private business parking (possibly not residential yet), as that essentially achieves the same thing with less backlash.

The mess can already be seen across the EU as the EU itself wasn't quick enough to standardise...

 

[d9009alycidon]

I wonder if there might be an opportunity with HS2 to to use the UIC GC structure gauge to introduce a modern version of the motorail concept, only using the additional width and height to allow a drive on, drive off service for electric cars. This could combine the speed of the trunk journey with the "green" credentials of travel at either end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if there might be an opportunity with HS2 to to use the UIC GC structure gauge to introduce a modern version of the motorail concept, only using the additional width and height to allow a drive on, drive off service for electric cars. This could combine the speed of the trunk journey with the "green" credentials of travel at either end.

Integration of car hire is probably a better way of doing that. When you book your easyJet flight it's really easy to package a car with it - why not when you book a long distance train journey?

Edit: mind boggles as to why Trainline isn't already doing this commercially.

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder if there might be an opportunity with HS2 to to use the UIC GC structure gauge to introduce a modern version of the motorail concept, only using the additional width and height to allow a drive on, drive off service for electric cars. This could combine the speed of the trunk journey with the "green" credentials of travel at either end.

Even if the vehicles could be run at the high speeds needed to keep ahead of passenger trains, most of HS2 is expected to be close to full capacity with passengers. And moving passengers on their own is far more cost-efficient and environmentally friendly than moving passengers with their vehicles, each needing about 10 times the space and contributing 20 times the weight.

 

[FenMan]

I think the 2030 deadline is typical Boris bluster and grandstanding and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it’s pushed back by the next government or indeed PM. I’ve seen nothing so far to suggest it’s actually achievable, but it looks good which is all that matters!

Britain is not an island when it comes to car production. Production of ICE cars for the British market will stop around this date anyway due to legislation in other countries such as Germany. I very much doubt manufacturers would keep an ICE plant in production just for the Brits.

 

[d9009alycidon]

Integration of car hire is probably a better way of doing that. When you book your easyJet flight it's really easy to package a car with it - why not when you book a long distance train journey?

The issues with this is that most major rail hubs are city centre locations, so you don't have the acres of space to have your car lot like they have at airports. You would need to create Hire and Ride stations on the outskirts of towns. The only places I can think of where I can use the train as a trunk carrier then have a convenient car hire facility at the end is at Airports with rail links (Birmingham/Manchester etc).

 

[DustyBin]

That's the likely official position, but owning, using and keeping a pre-2030 IC vehicle will become increasingly difficult as time goes on:

a) fuel will continue to attract duty - presumably the ridiculous freeze against inflation will soon be removed​

b) for traffic congestion reasons, road use will be applied to all vehicles, (so the fuel duty will be an optional additional cost of motoring)​

c) access to urban roads will be increasingly out of bounds to IC vehicles, - there is provision in law for LAs to protect the local environment, greatly reinforced since the coroner's report on Ella Adoo-Kissi-Debrah's untimely death that traffic emissions were a factor.​

d) the supply of replacement parts for IC vehicles will dry up as manufaturers have no ongoing production, and third party sources will see a rapidly shrinking market for their trade in alternative parts. It is unlikerly that a 'Cuba' type of motoring subculture will survive long because most global sources of engines from other will also dry up.​

e) there may be social pressures for non-essential IC vehicle usage to stop as the impact of climate change really starts to bite.​

The average age of private cars in the UK is currentlyy about 8 years, which although higher than it was in 1994, is certainly likely to fall rapidly with the above disincentives leading to large scale dumping of second cars as well as making the main family car an EV type thereby resulting in a net saving.

All of this is dependant on EVs becoming practical and affordable of course; people won't be forced onto public transport regardless of that the anti-car lobbyists would like to believe (that's not a dig at you incidentally).

As much as I like IC engines (of the petrol variety anyway) I accept the environmental benefits of EVs and would consider one for day to day transport. If performance EVs become a bit more reasonably priced I may even be converted(!) but at present the majority are either mundane hatchbacks or SUVs which I hate with a passion; even the Ford Mach-E is an utter monstrosity. I would also like to think owning and occasionally driving an IC engine vehicle doesn't become prohibitively expensive and doesn't make me some kind of social pariah. We operate filthy steam locos, vintage buses, we even allow people to play with firearms for fun so hopefully a sense of perspective is retained.

Britain is not an island when it comes to car production. Production of ICE cars for the British market will stop around this date anyway due to legislation in other countries such as Germany. I very much doubt manufacturers would keep an ICE plant in production just for the Brits.

Correct, in fact we produce relatively few cars ourselves. However, I believe we are slightly more ambitious that most in regard to the 2030 date and things can easily change that's all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issues with this is that most major rail hubs are city centre locations, so you don't have the acres of space to have your car lot like they have at airports.

Actually, you'd be surprised which ones have underground or multi-storey car parks - to give two examples both Manc Picc and Euston do. They just aren't very visible because most people don't look to park at those stations.

If it was a primarily advance-booked service, cars could be moved there as needed, so you don't need a full-service lot.

FWIW, there's a Europcar directly opposite Bletchley station. They're often there but unnoticed.

 

[ac6000cw]

The issues with this is that most major rail hubs are city centre locations, so you don't have the acres of space to have your car lot like they have at airports.

Have you never hired a car at a small office near the centre of a town or city ?

They often operate as satellite locations, with the main base somewhere cheaper much further out. The cars just get moved around between locations by the 'prep' staff as required, so there are never very many actually parked at (or nearby on the street) the satellite office. It means you need to book in advance (or be prepared to wait a while) but it works fine as a system.

Cambridge Station (years ago) used to have a car hire office which worked on that system - it just had a few dedicated parking spaces outside the office.

I've several times picked up rental cars from LA Union Station - there's basically a couple of kiosks just off the concourse, and after doing the paperwork they take you downstairs to a small parking garage (big enough for maybe 12 cars, shared between two hire companies) to your car. Way less hassle than the sometimes manic airport car rental lots.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I genuinely think most people don't notice what facilities there are for cars (owned or hired) at major city centre stations because most people arrive at those stations by train and leave them by foot (or onward public transport, or hire bike). Most of them do actually have reasonably sized car parks, albeit expensive ones.

 

[ac6000cw]

TBH - if you need a car after a long train journey, it's probably better to take the train to a less busy area that's closer to the out-of-city location you're maybe heading for, and hire the car there.

Why bother hiring a car in a city centre only to then have to spend ages driving on slow, crowded roads just to get out of the city area?

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH - if you need a car after a long train journey, it's probably better to take the train to a less busy area that's closer to the out-of-city location you're maybe heading for, and hire the car there.

Why bother hiring a car in a city centre only to then have to spend ages driving on slow, crowded roads just to get out of the city area?

Yes and no. There will be cases where that makes sense - for example it'd be more sensible to set up car hire facilities at Stockport than Manchester Piccadilly (and of course the HS2 station is near the airport which has it anyway), or Watford Junction (near the M25) than Euston, or Reading/Slough rather than Paddington. But if you have to take a connecting train it kills the convenience and won't be an easy sell.

 

[Bald Rick]

Partly because it doesn't deal at all with one of the two issues - particulates, NOx, SO2 etc in cities, which is actively killing people and many think is a cause of the high prevalence of asthma at present. The carbon issue is an issue, but it is very slightly less pressing, so it might actually be worth taking a slight hit on it to get the fleet replaced, at which point things settle back down again (a bit like the slamdoor train fleet replacement, or the very quick introduction of low-floor buses due to the major benefit).

My near 15 year old petrol car is ULEZ compliant. Not very good on the Carbons, admittedly.

The problem with public transport (where I live) is it’s slow, unreliable, inconvenient, uncomfortable and expensive to boot. It’s just not an attractive option on any level, that’s the harsh reality.

I think it is quite likely that you’ll see more ulez zones (hopefully consistent nationwide, as @Bletchleyite says) but that city park and rides will be just outside the zones. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that ULEZ zones become NoEZ.

I did consider a hybrid car last year (either a 330e or 530e) but as well as the high purchase cost my colleagues who have them go through fuel at an alarming rate

Interesting one of my friends has a 330e, does around 150 miles a week, and has filled up twice in a year. It depends, naturally, of what type of driving you do. His 15 mile trip to the office and occasional longer distance journeys suits this car perfectly.

TBH - if you need a car after a long train journey, it's probably better to take the train to a less busy area that's closer to the out-of-city location you're maybe heading for, and hire the car there.

Why bother hiring a car in a city centre only to then have to spend ages driving on slow, crowded roads just to get out of the city area?

I’ve hired cars at, or very adjacent to, Glasgow Central, Edinburgh, Dundee, Inverness and York stations. The traffic very much depends on what time you are arriving there (both ways). By far the worst for traffic was Dundee at 1630 on a Friday. Even getting into Edinburgh around 1800, or departing Glasgow at 0800 (both weekdays) was straightforward.