Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification

[gingertom]

Thinking about it a little more, it makes sense to wire to Dalmeny station in any case so that passengers could be detrained if for any reason a BEMU or hybrid was unable to switch to battery/diesel.

Dalmeny station could be a useful place to turn a train back. Loops available too to park up and await their return journey. Makes sense.

 

[Railsigns]

Dalmeny station could be a useful place to turn a train back. Loops available too to park up and await their return journey. Makes sense.

Dalmeny station is problematic for turning back trains arriving from the south. The Up platform has no signal at its south end to turn a train back, and the Down platform only has a ground position light signal at its south end. In theory, a train could run past the station and onto the start of the bridge to get behind the first Up direction main signal, and thence return to the station to continue its return journey on the authority of a main signal aspect. However, this would entail running beyond the limit of the proposed OLE, which will end just north of the station. Both loops at Dalmeny are being electrified.

 

[najaB]

Dalmeny station is problematic for turning back trains arriving from the south. The Up platform has no signal at its south end to turn a train back, and the Down platform only has a ground position light signal at its south end. In theory, a train could run past the station and onto the start of the bridge to get behind the first Up direction main signal, and thence return to the station to continue its return journey on the authority of a main signal aspect. However, this would entail running beyond the limit of the proposed OLE, which will end just north of the station. Both loops at Dalmeny are being electrified.

Given that it would likely only happen in times of disruption or when there's a unit failure, is crossing down to up before the loops (using the Winchburgh junction cross over) an option?

 

[Starmill]

The Forth and Tay bridges and the tunnels are not part of the current Fife scheme. See the map attachment in #441 (to which the Leven branch should be added).

However, except for 80x bi-modes between Edinburgh and Dalmeny, none of it will be much use until there are some BEMUs (or 769s?) to use it.

I didn't realise 769s might be under any meaningful internal consideration. However given the difficulties this and the connected rolling stock strategy have had getting off the ground, I suppose everything should be under meaningful consideration really.

 

[Railsigns]

Given that it would likely only happen in times of disruption or when there's a unit failure, is crossing down to up before the loops (using the Winchburgh junction cross over) an option?

Turning back in the Down platform (departing on a position light aspect) would probably be allowed in times of perturbation. Such movements would use the crossover just south of the station to join the Up Fife line. Alternatively, trains can turn back in the loops (although from the Down Loop, trains can only turn back onto the Winchburgh line).

 

[snowball]

I didn't realise 769s might be under any meaningful internal consideration. However given the difficulties this and the connected rolling stock strategy have had getting off the ground, I suppose everything should be under meaningful consideration really.

I only know what I've read in a thread on here:

GW 769s to Scotrail?

I saw this in another thread, thought it might be worth discussion.

www.railforums.co.uk

(Plus I think it got a paragraph in Rail or Modern Railways recently)

 

[najaB]

I'm sure nothing is off the table, but I would be surprised if new-build bi-modes like Stadler Flirts weren't the preferred option, rather than rebuilt units.

 

[Starmill]

I only know what I've read in a thread on here:

GW 769s to Scotrail?

I saw this in another thread, thought it might be worth discussion.

www.railforums.co.uk

(Plus I think it got a paragraph in Rail or Modern Railways recently)

Ah got you. Seems most likely that was a thread observing units being tested for a light freight customer but it's absolutely not 100% clear to me if so.

 

[waverley47]

The 769s aren't planned. They have been mentioned, but there are no plans as yet.

Electric units will not be regularly timetabled to turn around at Dalmeny, until several years in the future, and even then it's very unlikely.

Electric units along the line, if they are pure EMUs, will be chucking people off at Gateway, turning around in the Up Passenger Loop, and leading back to Waverley. As was so astutely pointed out, there is currently exactly one electric starter from Haymarket heading east every day, and this is unlikely to be extended to more than one. Timekeeping would be atrocious, and the current timetables work well without trying to thread North Berwick services through Waverley to the west.

It would be more prudent to get back to the topic at hand, being the state and progress of mast foundation installations, and when they will start progressing along the line towards the bridge

 

[92002]

The 769s aren't planned. They have been mentioned, but there are no plans as yet.

Electric units will not be regularly timetabled to turn around at Dalmeny, until several years in the future, and even then it's very unlikely.

Electric units along the line, if they are pure EMUs, will be chucking people off at Gateway, turning around in the Up Passenger Loop, and leading back to Waverley. As was so astutely pointed out, there is currently exactly one electric starter from Haymarket heading east every day, and this is unlikely to be extended to more than one. Timekeeping would be atrocious, and the current timetables work well without trying to thread North Berwick services through Waverley to the west.

It would be more prudent to get back to the topic at hand, being the state and progress of mast foundation installations, and when they will start progressing along the line towards the bridge

769s have recently been out on various test runs. The llatest from Kilmarnock to Glasgow then the West Coast Main Line to Carlisle. However nobody has signed up to lease them. If they were used on the Fifecservicesvtheyvwould change over to diesel at Daleny and continue into Fife So no nwedctovturn back to Edinburgh

The current 769 test runs are to prove that they can be made reliable. Then some company may sign a lease for them. As the Fife electrification crosses the Forth Bridge into Fife the electric mode would get bigger. However no electricity feed has so far been installed from Haymarket to Dalmeny and given the lead time to get feeders could be very far into the future. Wires have yet to appear. So far only a few droppers have appeared . So a long way to go yet
The electrification scheme has yet to get financed and signed off

 

[waverley47]

The current 769 test runs are to prove that they can be made reliable. Then some company may sign a lease for them. As the Fife electrification crosses the Forth Bridge into Fife the electric mode would get bigger. However no electricity feed has so far been installed from Haymarket to Dalmeny and given the lead time to get feeders could be very far into the future. Wires have yet to appear. So far only a few droppers have appeared . So a long way to go yet
The electrification scheme has yet to get financed and signed off

It has been signed off but ultimately finance is more difficult. As far as I have been told, the money is being spent from the NRScot capex budget and will be paid for later?

I'm fully aware of the status of the 769s, and that following further electrification they could run to Fife, however noone ins ScotRail wants them, and their experience with the HSTs would give logic as to why. Nobody wants them, there aren't enough of them, and as reliable as they might turn out to be, you cannot polish a turd to make it gold.

 

[Cails27]

Given that it would likely only happen in times of disruption or when there's a unit failure, is crossing down to up before the loops (using the Winchburgh junction cross over) an option?

The Up line becomes bi-directional at that point so there is full main aspect signalling to take trains from down to up at Dalmeny junction.

 

[snowball]

However no electricity feed has so far been installed from Haymarket to Dalmeny and given the lead time to get feeders could be very far into the future.

Surely Haymarket to Dalmeny will be fed from Currie and/or Portobello. New feeders are committed at both and construction at Currie is reported to be completed. See post #274 in the following thread:

Decarbonising Scotland’s Railways

https://www.bordertelegraph.com/news/24297816.galashiels-victorian-viaduct-electrification-work-bid-pulled/ News on the Galafoot viaduct - planning application related. disappointing to see that they have withdrawn the planning permission application

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The financial situation of the UK and Scottish governments is vastly worse than it was two years ago. Two years ago the Scottish rail industry was in expansionist mood, embarking on new projects. Since then the shutters have come down with a big thud. Scottish government finances are controlled by the UK government, which as I understand it has left infrastucture funding unchanged in cash terms despite vast inflation - and that's before HS2 phase 2 was cancelled with its loss of Barnett consequentials. They are trying to avoid cutting the electrification programme back to nothing. It's almost two years since we last heard anything on rolling stock. But the feeder stations ordered in 2022, including Thornton and Tweedbank, are still committed and should be in place by autumn 2026, so presumably they will try hard to have something to be powered by them not long after that date.

A Scottish parliamentary answer as recently as mid-May shows that they are still sticking to the line that the refresh of the decarbonisation plan, first promised for spring 2023, is still being worked on, and that something will be heard about rolling stock.

Maybe secretly they are waiting for something from Rachel Reeves's first UK budget in the autumn but I doubt there'll be much comfort in it.

Labour are no fans of the SNP so I don't seen any help coming from Reeves and even if Labour make inroads into the Scottish Parliament in 2026 they will want to push the health and education agendas above everything else.

 

[Starmill]

Labour are no fans of the SNP so I don't seen any help coming from Reeves and even if Labour make inroads into the Scottish Parliament in 2026 they will want to push the health and education agendas above everything else.

To be fair it's not really for Reeves to do anything about it anyway. She's committed to payment of the standard Barnett consequentials. It's then up to Scottish Ministers to decide what they want to spend that on. The new HMT budget will give Shona Robinson a different slant potentially though.

 

[takno]

Labour are no fans of the SNP so I don't seen any help coming from Reeves and even if Labour make inroads into the Scottish Parliament in 2026 they will want to push the health and education agendas above everything else.

It's less whether Labour are fans of the SNP and more what happens to their spending in England. There's no sign that they want to break the Barnett formula just to annoy the SNP, particularly since that would just lose Labour support in Scotland.

 

[najaB]

even if Labour make inroads into the Scottish Parliament in 2026 they will want to push the health and education agendas above everything else

I can see transport being fairly high up their agenda too - after all, good transportation goes a long way in boosting the economy and improving the lot of working and middle class people.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I can see transport being fairly high up their agenda too - after all, good transportation goes a long way in boosting the economy and improving the lot of working and middle class people.

I agree. There might be less road spending though which imho is a good thing.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I agree. There might be less road spending though which imho is a good thing.

Scottish Labour say this in their manifesto

We will decarbonise Scotland’s railways within 15 years, focusing on a rolling programme of electrification

Not overly ambitious but probably realistic within current monetary constraints. SNPs manifesto out tomorrow will be interesting.

 

[EMU303]

Scottish Labour say this in their manifesto



Not overly ambitious but probably realistic within current monetary constraints. SNPs manifesto out tomorrow will be interesting.

I’m confused… the election on 4 July is for Westminster and transport is devolved to the nations. So if labour in Scotland want to decarbonise in 15 years they will have to wait until 2026 to see if they get elected at Holyrood? Or are they launching their manifesto 2 years early…

 

[najaB]

I’m confused… the election on 4 July is for Westminster and transport is devolved to the nations. So if labour in Scotland want to decarbonise in 15 years they will have to wait until 2026 to see if they get elected at Holyrood? Or are they launching their manifesto 2 years early…

Naturally, transport is devolved to the nations but if Labour win a sizable number of Westminster seats then it will have an effect on Holyrood policy, with all eyes on the next Scottish elections.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does it say when the 15 years starts?

 

[EastFifer]

Area 51, the whereabouts of UK Submarine’s, the meaning of life, who really killed Tupac…
Just a few subjects that are easier to work out than this little stretch of railway that might or might not be getting worked on!

 

[snowball]

Area 51, the whereabouts of UK Submarine’s, the meaning of life, who really killed Tupac…
Just a few subjects that are easier to work out than this little stretch of railway that might or might not be getting worked on!

To be fair, a lot of the discussion in this thread is not specific to the stretch of railway named in the title. The thread is used also for general discussion of the whole Scottish decarbonisation programme.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Is the timing of this work over the last few weeks not connected to the completion of the Levenmouth project? If you have staff otherwise paid for and sitting idle, use them to do a bit of the next project.

The Dalmeny electrification is certainly interesting because it only makes sense alongside the rest of the strategy. Other than that single Haymarket terminating service from East Lothian, there's no service which actually benefits from doing this wiring. If you wanted it for resilience (e.g. Winchburgh tunnel closures) you'd need to do the line to Linlithgow too. If you wanted something properly self contained that didn't require much wider strategy then the Borders Line could be switched to a basic EMU shuttle. Even something like Dunblane to Perth gets tied up in plans for Perth station.

 

[snowball]

Other than that single Haymarket terminating service from East Lothian, there's no service which actually benefits from doing this wiring.

There are still some through bi-modes from Kings Cross to Aberdeen, aren't there?

 

[NotATrainspott]

There are still some through bi-modes from Kings Cross to Aberdeen, aren't there?

Of course, but these aren't going to benefit much. It might mean a quieter start from Haymarket but they'll have to fire up the engines anyway, just a few minutes later at most.

 

[92002]

Is the timing of this work over the last few weeks not connected to the completion of the Levenmouth project? If you have staff otherwise paid for and sitting idle, use them to do a bit of the next project.

The Dalmeny electrification is certainly interesting because it only makes sense alongside the rest of the strategy. Other than that single Haymarket terminating service from East Lothian, there's no service which actually benefits from doing this wiring. If you wanted it for resilience (e.g. Winchburgh tunnel closures) you'd need to do the line to Linlithgow too. If you wanted something properly self contained that didn't require much wider strategy then the Borders Line could be switched to a basic EMU shuttle. Even something like Dunblane to Perth gets tied up in plans for Perth station.

Really thought myself that all the hype had a lot to do with an election coming up.

Of course it for the UK government to create more Barnet consequential for electrification to Scotland Strangely there has recently been announced electrification of the North Wales line. With works in East Midlands and Midland Main Line.

Would however think that Dalmeny is not top of the list should money arrive Will be quite an expensive and costly project

 

[snowball]

Of course, but these aren't going to benefit much. It might mean a quieter start from Haymarket but they'll have to fire up the engines anyway, just a few minutes later at most.

Do they currently change at Haymarket or Waverley?

Really thought myself that all the hype had a lot to do with an election coming up.

What hype are you referring to? I wouldn't describe the appearance of a sign in the compound as hype.

Of course it for the UK government to create more Barnet consequential for electrification to Scotland Strangely there has recently been announced electrification of the North Wales line.

Not really a proper announcement, just part of the dodgy Network North package used as cover for the cancellation of HS2 north of Handsacre. There's an item in the current issue of Rail magazine saying North Wales electrification is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.

Would however think that Dalmeny is not top of the list should money arrive Will be quite an expensive and costly project

Is there a reason why it would be more expensive than seven miles somewhere else?

 

[hexagon789]

Do they currently change at Haymarket or Waverley?




What hype are you referring to? I wouldn't describe the appearance of a sign in the compound as hype.


Not really a proper announcement, just part of the dodgy Network North package used as cover for the cancellation of HS2 north of Handsacre. There's an item in the current issue of Rail magazine saying North Wales electrification is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.


Is there a reason why it would be more expensive than seven miles somewhere else?

Stationary at Haymarket.