Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification

[92002]

Do they currently change at Haymarket or Waverley?




What hype are you referring to? I wouldn't describe the appearance of a sign in the compound as hype.


Not really a proper announcement, just part of the dodgy Network North package used as cover for the cancellation of HS2 north of Handsacre. There's an item in the current issue of Rail magazine saying North Wales electrification is unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future.


Is there a reason why it would be more expensive than seven miles somewhere else?

It's not so much the Dalmeny part that will cost more

However it will cost more for the Forth Bridge than normal. Then of course major works on Kinghorn Tunnel.

Dalmeny is the easy part.

It's all part of Aberdeen to the Central Belt but providing Fife Circle on the way. as well as Levenmouth.

 

[snowball]

It's not so much the Dalmeny part that will cost more

However it will cost more for the Forth Bridge than normal. Then of course major works on Kinghorn Tunnel.

Dalmeny is the easy part.

It's all part of Aberdeen to the Central Belt but providing Fife Circle on the way. as well as Levenmouth.

The Forth Bridge and Kinghorn Tunnel will no doubt have to be done eventually, but as I keep saying, they are not part of the current plan.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Scottish Labour say this in their manifesto



Not overly ambitious but probably realistic within current monetary constraints. SNPs manifesto out tomorrow will be interesting.

SNP have even less to say in their manifesto just talking about what they have achieved and saying this

Reverse the £1.3bn Westminster cut to our capital budget, to enable us to invest in new hospitals, schools, rail and road infrastructure and help to achieve net zero.

Oh and this specifically

We are committed to dualling the A9 in full between Perth and Inverness and improving the A96, including dualling Inverness to Nairn and the Nairn Bypass. We will press the UK Government to fulfil their commitment to fund improvements to the A75.

Nothing about rail schemes so guess we will have to see what the refreshed decarbonisation plan says but as long as they at least keep the local teams intact progress can be made albeit slowly.

 

[najaB]

However it will cost more for the Forth Bridge than normal. Then of course major works on Kinghorn Tunnel.

The current plan, AIUI, is for an X centred on Ladybank with the arms stretching from somewhere around Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline in the south to Hilton Junction and Leuchars in the north.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The current plan, AIUI, is for an X centred on Ladybank with the arms stretching from somewhere around Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline in the south to Hilton Junction and Leuchars in the north.

Which seems like a good strategy to me.

 

[snowball]

The current plan, AIUI, is for an X centred on Ladybank with the arms stretching from somewhere around Kirkcaldy and Dunfermline in the south to Hilton Junction and Leuchars in the north.

By "the current plan" I was referring to a smaller X centred at Thornton North Junction, where a feeder station is contracted, and extending south to Seafield (just south of Kirkcaldy), east to Leven, west to somewhere near Cardenden/Lochgelly, and north to Ladybank, as discussed in numerous previous posts in this thread and the map most recently posted in #441 and #460.

 

[najaB]

By "the current plan" I was referring to a smaller X centred at Thornton North Junction, where a feeder station is contracted, and extending south to Seafield (just south of Kirkcaldy), east to Leven, west to somewhere near Cardenden/Lochgelly, and north to Ladybank, as discussed in numerous previous posts in this thread and the map most recently posted in #441 and #460.

Thanks. Though I thought the intention was to start with that and then extend it so that it eventually joined up with the Dunblane-Perth electrification at Hilton Junction and got as far as Leuchars/Tay Bridge South in the north and continued past Dunfermline to Inverkeithing in the south.

This would avoid the 'difficult' bits like the Tay and Forth bridges and the Kinghorn tunnel.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Thanks. Though I thought the intention was to start with that and then extend it so that it eventually joined up with the Dunblane-Perth electrification at Hilton Junction and got as far as Leuchars/Tay Bridge South in the north and continued past Dunfermline to Inverkeithing in the south.

This would avoid the 'difficult' bits like the Tay and Forth bridges and the Kinghorn tunnel.

Without a clear strategy on rolling stock acquisition im not sure building isolated systems is very wise currently and extending what is already in place would serve passengers better.

 

[najaB]

Without a clear strategy on rolling stock acquisition im not sure building isolated systems is very wise currently and extending what is already in place would serve passengers better.

While they may not have made any decisions public, the HSTs can't last long enough to make anything other than a bi-mode fleet feasible.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

While they may not have made any decisions public, the HSTs can't last long enough to make anything other than a bi-mode fleet feasible.

Entirely agree but my point is the rolling stock and electrification strategy need to go hand in hand if they are going down the discontinuous electrification route which personally I see as eminently sensible way of dealing with decarbonisation be it battery or diesel mode. If Scotrail was smart it would have written an enquiry that ensured Stadler got an order for 755's which could be in use in a couple of years.

 

[mcmad]

Given both the electrification programme and the rolling stock strategy are controlled by Transport Scotland then they should be joined up but.....

 

[najaB]

Entirely agree but my point is the rolling stock and electrification strategy need to go hand in hand if they are going down the discontinuous electrification route which personally I see as eminently sensible way of dealing with decarbonisation be it battery or diesel mode. If Scotrail was smart it would have written an enquiry that ensured Stadler got an order for 755's which could be in use in a couple of years.

I doubt that there will be enough wired to allow BEMUs to serve Inverness and Aberdeen by the time the HSTs are life expired (another five to ten years?), so it'll have to be diesel bi-modes, surely?

 

[mcmad]

Given they've also specified in the HLOS for CP7 that level boarding is also a consideration then Stadler is currently the only game in town. That's not to say the others couldn't develop similar low floor solutions but whether the Scotrail order(s) are sufficient to persuade another manufacturer to make that leap (excuse the pun) remains open to debate.

 

[92002]

I doubt that there will be enough wired to allow BEMUs to serve Inverness and Aberdeen by the time the HSTs are life expired (another five to ten years?), so it'll have to be diesel bi-modes, surely?

There are of course approved designs for Bi Mode trains using hydrogen rather than diesel. With many trains in store which could be converted.and more due shortly.

Supplies of hydrogen are scarce and would need to be addressed though.

 

[takno]

There are of course approved designs for Bi Mode trains using hydrogen rather than diesel. With many trains in store which could be converted.and more due shortly.

Supplies of hydrogen are scarce and would need to be addressed though.

Is anybody still seriously considering hydrogen? Seems like even the Germans are backing away from it as completely unworkable, and our loading gauge makes it yet more complicated. Meanwhile, this clean hydrogen seems only slightly closer than nuclear fusion.

Either way, equipping the trains with a massive source of extremely intense fires doesn't feel like a fantastic alternative plan for lines with tunnels which are too small to electrify.

 

[Haribolover06]

there is talks that the new Alstom Adessia platform will be capable of level boarding, and since the future is looking more and more at level boarding, other manufacturers will follow.

 

[Nottingham59]

I doubt that there will be enough wired to allow BEMUs to serve Inverness and Aberdeen by the time the HSTs are life expired (another five to ten years?), so it'll have to be diesel bi-modes, surely?

Yes, they'll need bimodes for Aberdeen and Inverness, but those are relatively small markets.

A battery BEMU with 100 miles operational range could serve anywhere south of Perth and Dundee with just the electrification already to Dunblane and planned between Ladybank and Kinghorn.

 

[najaB]

Yes, they'll need bimodes for Aberdeen and Inverness, but those are relatively small markets.

A battery BEMU with 100 miles operational range could serve anywhere south of Perth and Dundee with just the electrification already to Dunblane and planned between Ladybank and Kinghorn.

But, on the other hand, a uniform fleet simplifies planning and maintenance. So probably something like 40 to 50 bi-modes to replace the HSTs and 170s, and BEMUs for replacing the 158s.

Edit: The penalty for dragging an engine and fuel around while under the wires isn't *that* big.

 

[Nottingham59]

But, on the other hand, a uniform fleet simplifies planning and maintenance. So probably something like 40 to 50 bi-modes to replace the HSTs and 170s, and BEMUs for replacing the 158s.

Or one design of train with battery or diesel powerpacks that can be swapped around as needed.

If I were buying I'd specify a fleet of BEMUs fitted with enough battery packs for normal operation, say 100 miles off the wires, with a (very small) biodiesel range extender to cover diversions and emergencies.

 

[Carntyne]

With the money you're all spending on bi/tri-mode trains, you could put the wires up everywhere and buy (cheaper) EMUs.

 

[najaB]

With the money you're all spending on bi/tri-mode trains, you could put the wires up everywhere and buy (cheaper) EMUs.

If the rail network consisted entirely of plain track with no low bridges, heritage structures and tunnels with limited clearance, sure. However in the real world...

 

[Bald Rick]

With the money you're all spending on bi/tri-mode trains, you could put the wires up everywhere and buy (cheaper) EMUs.

No you couldn‘t.

The price difference between a BEMU and a straight EMU is, in the scheme of things, minimal.

 

[Nottingham59]

With the money you're all spending on bi/tri-mode trains, you could put the wires up everywhere and buy (cheaper) EMUs.

Not at the current cost of wiring, which is around £3.5 million per single track kilometre.
That sort of expenditure is only economically justified with 6 or 8 tph or more

 

[Trainbike46]

I doubt that there will be enough wired to allow BEMUs to serve Inverness and Aberdeen by the time the HSTs are life expired (another five to ten years?), so it'll have to be diesel bi-modes, surely?

If I was the one making decisions (and to be clear, I am not), I would press ahead with ordering a fleet of BEMUs and EMUs, to replace the life-expired EMUs (318s and 320s), and the DMUs on the fife circle, borders, and some of the services around Glasgow.

By then the 156s would likely be life-expired, but I'd shift the 158s and 170s onto the IC workings, replacing the HSTs in that way.

All the while keep expanding electrification so that the (B)EMUs can replace increasingly many services

 

[snowball]

If I was the one making decisions (and to be clear, I am not), I would press ahead with ordering a fleet of BEMUs and EMUs, to replace the life-expired EMUs (318s and 320s), and the DMUs on the fife circle, borders, and some of the services around Glasgow.

By then the 156s would likely be life-expired, but I'd shift the 158s and 170s onto the IC workings, replacing the HSTs in that way.

All the while keep expanding electrification so that the (B)EMUs can replace increasingly many services

That's precisely what they were proposing to do, as in the 2022 advertisement linked in the first post of the thread at this link, but then it went all quiet when the financial situation got much worse.

 

[jamieintercity]

Noticed on roadworksscotland.org that main street dalmeny, south gyle road and ladywell Avenue and scheduled to close from November 2025 to January 2026 for an estimated 125 days for demolition and re-deck of the bridges

 

[najaB]

Noticed on roadworksscotland.org that main street dalmeny, south gyle road and ladywell Avenue and scheduled to close from November 2025 to January 2026 for an estimated 125 days for demolition and re-deck of the bridges

Interesting, sounds like real progress. I wonder if Main Street is going to be rebuilt as a road bridge as it appears from Google Maps as if the road has been abandoned: https://maps.app.goo.gl/MnYCKfH9QGcHrUdq8

 

[snowball]

Noticed on roadworksscotland.org that main street dalmeny, south gyle road and ladywell Avenue and scheduled to close from November 2025 to January 2026 for an estimated 125 days for demolition and re-deck of the bridges

Very interesting. These closures start around the time the East Kilbride line is due to be completed, so they are compatible with the major works moving on from the EK line to the Dalmeny line. They suggest that the rate of progress on the Dalmeny line over the next 18 months will not be spectacular.