Heart of Wales rolling stock discussion

[PHILIPE]

Sorry what has cross border got to do with it. If the WG sends stock back to the ROSCO its up to the ROSCO as to where it goes next. Now the DFT does have influence over the English TOCs of course.

Mistaken for which I apologise.

 

[gallafent]

Not so great for small children though, nor smallish adults for that matter, with them being so high and shallow (and seats so low).

That's a fair point … by the time I travelled on them I was tall enough that it wasn't a problem for me, so I hadn't thought about it that much. As someone else mentioned, the lower bottom edge of the windows on the Networkers were very welcome in that regard. The high bottom edge on both 153s and all the mk3-derived stock were definitely not great for shorter people!

 

[anthony263]

Wasn't another reason for keeping class 153s for the HOWL was that it was cheaper than clearing the route for the class 170s.

 

[PHILIPE]

Wasn't another reason for keeping class 153s for the HOWL was that it was cheaper than clearing the route for the class 170s.

As the Shrewsbury to Crewe local interworks with the HOWL, it would have meant training Carmarthen, Shrewsbury, Crewe and Chester traincrews on them.

 

[Caaardiff]

Wasn't another reason for keeping class 153s for the HOWL was that it was cheaper than clearing the route for the class 170s.

Yes. There would have been a lot of work required in further west of Swansea and on the HOWL to make the 170's cleared. There seems to be gauging issues with the 170s vs many other types. Hence them not being cleared for VOG and Swansea station & west. The easiest option is to retain the 153's until they ultimately need replacing.

 

[Wyrleybart]

To be fair to 153s the narrow pillars mean they do have (in common with Pacers) a "wall of glass" and actually aren't that bad for scenery.

Correct response. My first journey over the Central Wales line was around 1980 in one of the dedicated two car Swindon Cross Country units with the "car headlight" but I mostly travelled on the 0346 Shrewsbury-Swansea to get to my sisters house near Ty'r dail for daybreak. Took my father in law for a ride about tn years ago, to do the line Church Stretton - Swansea and return. It was a 153 and I had no issues at all, Summer and with the windows open, allowing the clickety clack into the saloon.

In my view the ruralness of a 153 is preferential to a sealed in 170, although the bottom of the window line of the Sprinter has always been just a tad to high. The view though are stunning and the line is magical. Why would you want to be sealed away from it in double-glazed, climate controlled isolation ?

Although I do like 170s, they are designed for 100mph limited stop "super super sprinting", definitely not crawling around single jointed track at 40-50mph. They could of course have their drivelines reconfigured, with maybe electric transmissions and regen to reuse all the kinetic energy.

 

[tomos dafis]

Sorry what has cross border got to do with it. If the WG sends stock back to the ROSCO its up to the ROSCO as to where it goes next. Now the DFT does have influence over the English TOCs of course.

The DFT also still has influence over TFW due to the fact that Wales and Borders provides services and operates stations within England. This has everything to do with how WG runs the W + B franchise, 'brand', or whatever you call it now. The Transfer of Powers Order that gave WG control of the (then) W + B franchise contains clear conditions, stipulations and limitations upon the WG in terms of services running within or into England, along with English stations they operate. DFT clearly still reserves the right to have a measure of control over services provided by TFW for stations they serve in England. WG still does not have 'carte blanche' in terms of how it behaves in terms of services provided to English passengers as many people seem to think. So DFT may still have a say regarding WG plans for rolling stock to be used in future on such services. For example, HOW line, northern portion serving Shropshire with one service all the way to Crewe, - 153's instead of the promised upgrade to 170's or maybe now 197's. If passengers in Shropshire are unhappy they have the right to complain to their MP who has the right to consult the DFT who have power to hold WG to account for the 'English potion' of the services.

 

[Jez]

Yes. There would have been a lot of work required in further west of Swansea and on the HOWL to make the 170's cleared. There seems to be gauging issues with the 170s vs many other types. Hence them not being cleared for VOG and Swansea station & west. The easiest option is to retain the 153's until they ultimately need replacing.

I wonder just how long the plan is to keep 153s on the HOW?

When the original TFW 15 year franchise started October 2018 it was said the 170s were to be the only 'old' units to be kept for the entire franchise until 2033 and used on HOW/West Wales/Crewe local etc. Clearly that has changed but surely the 153s cant last another 12 years? They are already around 35 years old. Personally i hated the 153s before ATW gave them a decent refurbishment around a decade ago then they were great units for lines such as HOW and Pembroke Dock. I also like the TFW refurbished sets although less seats it wont be a problem if all sets are doubled up on HOW.

I would prefer TFW to keep a small fleet of 175s (maybe the 2 car sets) for use on HOW/Crewe local and they could cover on any West Wales/Marches services for the 197s like the 150s cover for 175 now.

 

[Caaardiff]

I wonder just how long the plan is to keep 153s on the HOW?

When the original TFW 15 year franchise started October 2018 it was said the 170s were to be the only 'old' units to be kept for the entire franchise until 2033 and used on HOW/West Wales/Crewe local etc. Clearly that has changed but surely the 153s cant last another 12 years? They are already around 35 years old. Personally i hated the 153s before ATW gave them a decent refurbishment around a decade ago then they were great units for lines such as HOW and Pembroke Dock. I also like the TFW refurbished sets although less seats it wont be a problem if all sets are doubled up on HOW.

I would prefer TFW to keep a small fleet of 175s (maybe the 2 car sets) for use on HOW/Crewe local and they could cover on any West Wales/Marches services for the 197s like the 150s cover for 175 now.

Several changes have happened since the original Franchise plan and I don't think anything has been publicly released as to the new plan, so everything for now is an assumption. Extra MK4's will displace 197s so I wouldn't be surprised to see them in West Wales and Crewe locals, with a possibility of them covering the HOWL too.
What that does in terms of fleet numbers, I'm not sure. Again it can be assumed that the 5 MK4's will release 5 197s, but i'm not sure that will be enough to cover all of the above. Excluding HOWL, maybe the life of the 153's extended until they probably die! Or maybe a small top up order of 197's.

I hope TfW don't introduce another fleet type and the 197's work on all routes. 197's are already testing on Conwy, which 158's and 175's are cleared for. So one can assume the 197's is compatible with most routes. I sincerely hope someone has done their research this time as whoever planned for the 170's to work down west really didn't do their homework!

I really can't see the 175's staying. Alstom do the maintenance on them currently who will be transferring to CAF. Yes they could continue to do the maintenance but to keep a small sub fleet in a relatively small Depot i don't think is viable. There would no doubt be some kind of complications with contracts, parts, space etc etc by keeping them up North. And the cost of keeping them would probably be negated by buying more 197's.

Keeping the 158's and using them in the South and West Wales and the 158's being maintained on Canton as they already are (Albeit on a small scale), would probably be more sensible from a maintenance point of view, but again that's all speculation and the 158's are ageing too. Thus freeing up 197's to work HOWL. I often wonder if Landore could be utilised for a small fleet in West Wales, as well as stabling/maintenance for Mk4's.

 

[43096]

Several changes have happened since the original Franchise plan and I don't think anything has been publicly released as to the new plan, so everything for now is an assumption. Extra MK4's will displace 197s so I wouldn't be surprised to see them in West Wales and Crewe locals, with a possibility of them covering the HOWL too.
What that does in terms of fleet numbers, I'm not sure. Again it can be assumed that the 5 MK4's will release 5 197s, but i'm not sure that will be enough to cover all of the above. Excluding HOWL, maybe the life of the 153's extended until they probably die! Or maybe a small top up order of 197's.

If I remember correctly the plan for the South Wales-Manchesters was for them to be five car north of Cardiff (or was it Swansea?), so the four extra Mark 4 sets will release 8 197s. Add in retention of the 8 or so 153s and that’s 28 extra vehicles to the base plan with 32 170 cars leaving. A bit of COVID reduced capacity being needed means it is essentially equivalent to the original published fleet.

 

[Wyrleybart]

If I remember correctly the plan for the South Wales-Manchesters was for them to be five car north of Cardiff (or was it Swansea?), so the four extra Mark 4 sets will release 8 197s. Add in retention of the 8 or so 153s and that’s 28 extra vehicles to the base plan with 32 170 cars leaving. A bit of COVID reduced capacity being needed means it is essentially equivalent to the original published fleet.

Sounds spot on to me. A Mk4 set theoretically releases a pair of units, either 2+2 or 2+3. It is a case of drafting a new timetable which matches the LHCS rakes to the optimum Marches services, or even North Wales coast if that is subsequently found to be more cost effective / beneficial. After all the sets are allocated to HD aren't they ?
I imagine there is still debate and discussion on how best to diagram the LHCS in TfW Towers.