• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Heathrow Southern Link

davews

Member
Joined
24 Apr 2021
Messages
668
Location
Bracknell
As for Bracknell to Heathrow/Waterloo.
If the Staines-Heathrow link ever gets built (and even less unlikely Virginia Water to Heathrow) it will obviously speed us up in getting to Heathrow. But I don't think the Reading-Waterloo line can realistically be speeded up in itself with its multiple stations and things like the 20mph bends at Staines. And as pointed out we would not go Staines-Heathrow-Paddington on Elizabeth as it would be the same time as straight to Waterloo.

When I used to head to Heathrow quite regularly some years ago I decided that the quickest way was Richmond/District Line/Piccadilly Line. Maybe quicker routes now we have the Elizabeth line. When the Feltham buses could use the south tunnel that was quickest, but now they have to use the main tunnel the buses are actually slower.

Whatever, unlikely in my lifetime!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

PGAT

Established Member
Joined
13 Apr 2022
Messages
1,506
Location
Selhurst
The more the Elizabeth Line branches out the more complex the network is and the more unreliable it gets. Bracknell to Shenfield is not practical and not much time would be saved
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
19,034
Bracknell to Shenfield is not practical and not much time would be saved
It arguably isn't, although making Heathrow Terminal 5 a through station might allow a higher frequency (not from Shenfield though). It would be a bold thing to make the Crossrail service structure less practical ten or fifteen years after it opened.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,313
Someone would look at the passenger numbers on the RA2 bus between Woking and Heathrow and immediately say that a Woking link wasn't viable either.

someone has, and determined it was viable.

Albeit with some frankly dodgy assumptions about revenue allocations.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,395
You could just build the southern link as far as Staines along with the missing side of the triangle to avoid a reversal there, but IMO it would be better to build new track all the way to Virginia Water to avoid eating up capacity at Egham. There can always be a crossover there for Staines - Weybridge and hypothetical Heathrow - Wokingham trains.

A revised plan:
2tph Elizabeth Line to Staines
2tph Heathrow Express extended to Woking (calling Virginia Water, Chertsey and Addlestone)
2tph Heathrow Express extended to Basingstoke (calling Woking, Farnborough and Fleet)

If your getting to Woking then there's little (other than the need for the grade separated junction) stopping the service getting to Guildford. Given that Woking needs fixing for several reasons, and the likely timeline, there's a good chance Guildford would be served.

Elizabeth Line services would probably be best serving Reading via Heathrow (Western link) with London Waterloo services terminating at Heathrow.

Given that the Basingstoke services would be baking at Fleet (so slow line services between Farnborough and Winchfield at least) it would be interesting to see what impact having it as a stopping services (+6 minutes) would be.

Those from Basingstoke who want a direct service wouldn't be put off by the marginally slower journey time, whilst those wanting a faster service could change at Woking (where there's 4tph compared to 2tph at Basingstoke - so would likely do that anyway) and other than from Reading anyone from beyond Basingstoke would be better off changing at Woking.

Whilst Winchfield would add much (currently*) Hook is nearly 10,000 people at the last census and with good road links (anyone using the M3 can get to Hook station much more easily than Basingstoke station and with car to platform distances being much shorter and no steps or lifts as well it makes it a more attractive interchange point) it could be a useful addition.

* whilst Winchfield isn't very large, there's an on/off proposal for more housing near to the station, whilst this may not happen soon, neither is the railway, so actually they could both benefit each other.
 

kevin_roche

Member
Joined
26 Feb 2019
Messages
932
Someone would look at the passenger numbers on the RA2 bus between Woking and Heathrow and immediately say that a Woking link wasn't viable either.
I would never catch that bus to Heathrow. I caught it once (or twice if you count the return), proving to me that it was pretty awful. Even catching the bus all the way from Basingstoke is almost better. Bus transport, like all the road options, suffers from the M25 being on two sides of the airport and very congested. Unlike taking a taxi it sticks to a fixed route. The recent ULEZ and congestion charge changes have added to the cost of getting to Heathrow from the south and a rail option is badly needed. The train link from Woking was promised when T5 was approved, but when it was built the excuse of the cost of closing the Egham level crossings was used to remove it from the plans. Everyone I speak to says that they would use a train if the option was available.
 

Turtle

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2013
Messages
308
I think it’s incredible how much Britain was booming from the mid 90s to the late 2000s and yet no government seemed to find the money or time to build this damned link. It’s the lack of basic infrastructure like this that’s holding back Britains productivity. Is there no possibility for extending that Terminal 5 pod system to Feltham station

I would never catch that bus to Heathrow. I caught it once (or twice if you count the return), proving to me that it was pretty awful. Even catching the bus all the way from Basingstoke is almost better. Bus transport, like all the road options, suffers from the M25 being on two sides of the airport and very congested. Unlike taking a taxi it sticks to a fixed route. The recent ULEZ and congestion charge changes have added to the cost of getting to Heathrow from the south and a rail option is badly needed. The train link from Woking was promised when T5 was approved, but when it was built the excuse of the cost of closing the Egham level crossings was used to remove it from the plans. Everyone I speak to says that they would use a train if the option was available.
Your last sentence hits the nail on the head. By the way, does anyone else recall the Feltham shuttle to Heathrow. Living in South London we used to take a Southern Region train from Waterloo to Feltham and then board a shuttle bus to Heathrow. Even at that time it seemed logical to extend the railway to the airport.
 

Sad Sprinter

Established Member
Joined
5 Jun 2017
Messages
1,875
Location
Way on down South London town
Your last sentence hits the nail on the head. By the way, does anyone else recall the Feltham shuttle to Heathrow. Living in South London we used to take a Southern Region train from Waterloo to Feltham and then board a shuttle bus to Heathrow. Even at that time it seemed logical to extend the railway to the airport.

Living in South London going to Feltham and taking some sort of fixed light rail link would be my choice to getting to the airport
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
19,034
By the way, does anyone else recall the Feltham shuttle to Heathrow. Living in South London we used to take a Southern Region train from Waterloo to Feltham and then board a shuttle bus to Heathrow.
Not much point running a dedicated shuttle when there is capacity on the 285 and 490 buses.

Feltham Station was enhanced for its role as an airport connection station but that role seems to have diminished since.

Even at that time it seemed logical to extend the railway to the airport.
Logical but expensive.
 

JN114

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2005
Messages
3,363
By the way, does anyone else recall the Feltham shuttle to Heathrow. Living in South London we used to take a Southern Region train from Waterloo to Feltham and then board a shuttle bus to Heathrow. Even at that time it seemed logical to extend the railway to the airport.

The T123. Run by London United.

It was replaced by frequency improvements and diversion to Feltham station forecourt of route 285.
 

fandroid

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2014
Messages
1,761
Location
Hampshire
I would never catch that bus to Heathrow. I caught it once (or twice if you count the return), proving to me that it was pretty awful. Even catching the bus all the way from Basingstoke is almost better. Bus transport, like all the road options, suffers from the M25 being on two sides of the airport and very congested. Unlike taking a taxi it sticks to a fixed route. The recent ULEZ and congestion charge changes have added to the cost of getting to Heathrow from the south and a rail option is badly needed. The train link from Woking was promised when T5 was approved, but when it was built the excuse of the cost of closing the Egham level crossings was used to remove it from the plans. Everyone I speak to says that they would use a train if the option was available.
I gave up on the Woking Railair bus when it was run by National Express, but have resumed using it now it's run by First Bus. The alternative from Basingstoke was always its twin, the RA1 from Reading, which is still running in spite of the Elizabeth Line offering an alternative. I have yet to try the new 730/731 but will give it a go soon.
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,701
Someone would look at the passenger numbers on the RA2 bus between Woking and Heathrow and immediately say that a Woking link wasn't viable either.
It’s not very enticing to try to avoid the traffic on the M25 by getting a coach that takes exactly the same route….you just get a cab from your door, or a lift.
This link is really needed, replacing the HEx paths to give a SWR to Heathrow, HS2, and the GWML Thames Valley towns/West London (it’s a really awkward route to go via Basingstoke/Guildford and Reading.
pit will need the Woking flyover though - the reversing platform at Woking requires crossing the fast in and out (and is the platform free - the stopper sits there for quite a while ?)
Wouldn’t the Western link be Elizabeth Line - high capacity trains that already go to Reading and use the slow line platforms?
Apart from the big numbers the political problem is location - London/Surrey inducing whining from the North even if it didn’t need taxpayer support.
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
4,105
When I used to head to Heathrow quite regularly some years ago I decided that the quickest way was Richmond/District Line/Piccadilly Line.
But that is two Districts (via Turnham Green) or backing all the way to Hammersmith. Neither is ideal. Easy solve is Turnham Green Picc of course, not su re where that got to on its last go-round.

The WLO line from Hounslow to OOC (to Brent Cross West / WHT) would do a fair bit of connectivity through OOC to the GWR lines, Crossrail and HS of course.

Having the NLL from Richmond, the WLL from Clapham Junction and a future WLO from the Hounslow loop all calling at a OOC complex station would render a lot of the Southern link redundant, now I think about it - in terms of Heathrow to Southern Region connectivity.

It would be a hugely important link - and as it would likely have HEx calls too, you're looking at ~10 mins to T2/3. From Clapham (argument's sake, you alight from Balham) - it'd be quicker than the one-seat via Staines, especially to T2/3.

This Southern Rail is intensely BA-centric. Whereas I hate BA and only fly VS/DL/AFKL, so OOC works for me :)

Wouldn’t the Western link be Elizabeth Line - high capacity trains that already go to Reading and use the slow line platforms?

Yes, although I think there was mention of Oxford, Basingstoke and maybe others (Newbury or Swindon perhaps) - which might be pushing the stock a bit far, even if the stopping patterns west of WRATH were a lot more express.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,395
Yes, although I think there was mention of Oxford, Basingstoke and maybe others (Newbury or Swindon perhaps) - which might be pushing the stock a bit far, even if the stopping patterns west of WRATH were a lot more express.

Any longer distance services via Heathrow would would mostly be to create direct connections to stations either side of Reading, with people opting to change for faster services to London - that is unless TfL allow contactless payments at a lower cost to GWR services which could attract some to use them over the faster services.

There's also the question of how much slower would via Heathrow be; is is less than 15 minutes (compared to TfL services) if they were timed with a 10 minute gap at Reading (faster service first) then it'll still be quicker (by 5 minutes) than waiting for the next (2tph frequency) direct service at Reading.
 

PTR 444

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2019
Messages
2,288
Location
Wimborne
Having the NLL from Richmond, the WLL from Clapham Junction and a future WLO from the Hounslow loop all calling at a OOC complex station would render a lot of the Southern link redundant
No it wouldn’t, because you’d still have to change at least twice. Southern Access to Woking brings it down to one for much of the SWR network, and could even provide through trains if demand allowed.
 

Isambard

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2020
Messages
16
Location
Ashford
Has always seemed wrong to me that it’s impossible to get from almost all of Kent, Surrey and Sussex to Heathrow by train without at least two changes. With luggage etc one change (say Clapham Junction or Waterloo East-Waterloo if there were a southern link) might be OK but not two. Driving or a cab has seemed far more appealing.
 

PGAT

Established Member
Joined
13 Apr 2022
Messages
1,506
Location
Selhurst
I guess it’s expected that Gatwick would be their primary airport and therefore not enough demand to go to Heathrow (apart from Kent which has objectively awful connections to every county)
 

PTR 444

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2019
Messages
2,288
Location
Wimborne
I guess it’s expected that Gatwick would be their primary airport and therefore not enough demand to go to Heathrow (apart from Kent which has objectively awful connections to every county)
You can get to Heathrow from Kent in just one change if you go via the following routes:
  • HS1 to St Pancras, Piccadilly Line to Heathrow
  • From Medway towns, train to Abbey Wood then Elizabeth Line to Heathrow
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,581
You can get to Heathrow from Kent in just one change if you go via the following routes:
  • HS1 to St Pancras, Piccadilly Line to Heathrow
  • From Medway towns, train to Abbey Wood then Elizabeth Line to Heathrow
Indeed, and Thameslink to Farringdon takes in the Brighton line and various offshoots…
 

PGAT

Established Member
Joined
13 Apr 2022
Messages
1,506
Location
Selhurst
You can get to Heathrow from Kent in just one change if you go via the following routes:
  • HS1 to St Pancras, Piccadilly Line to Heathrow
  • From Medway towns, train to Abbey Wood then Elizabeth Line to Heathrow
The first option involves paying the extortionate high speed premium fare

The second option takes 2 and a half hours and is a very shoddy service

In practice very few people will take these options, and even if they do, it’s only serving Gravesend and the Medway, not the wider Kent region
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
4,105
No it wouldn’t, because you’d still have to change at least twice. Southern Access to Woking brings it down to one for much of the SWR network, and could even provide through trains if demand allowed.
I'm thinking predominantly on the Waterloo-Staines link, I don't see the SWR link happening at all.
 

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
2,244
Build it to Staines (there's room for a couple bay platforms at the western end of the station) with a parkway station (1,000 car parking spaces) off M25 Junction 14 in Stanwell Moor.
Extend the 2tph Elizabeth Line services there.
Extend with a western curve at Staines, some level crossing removal projects and line speed upgrades to Woking, if funding is available in the long term.
 

SynthD

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2020
Messages
1,183
Location
UK
Build it to Staines (there's room for a couple bay platforms at the western end of the station) with a parkway station (1,000 car parking spaces) off M25 Junction 14 in Stanwell Moor.
Extend the 2tph Elizabeth Line services there.
Agreed, but only because that car park would be within Hillingdon and therefore inside ULEZ.
Extend with a western curve at Staines, some level crossing removal projects and line speed upgrades to Woking, if funding is available in the long term.
The level crossing removal project is the tunnel to Virginia Water.
 

Mr. SW

Member
Joined
13 Sep 2023
Messages
105
Location
Armchair
Hello!

Long-time Lurker here.

As a one-time resident of South West London, I have been studying the above with interest and I bring the gift of local knowledge. Tada. So, I've whipped out my old notes (faint sounds of rustling paper) and dusted off an old Google Maps diagram for you amusement (unzipping of pencil case).


Hopefully, that will take you to my diagram of the Airport lines. I've cleaned off the extraneous detail as it was originally done privately to see why the District Line wasn't extended to Heathrow (Answer: Operation and Congestion, but not for discussion here.)

** DISCLAIMER: All the Existing Lines shown are shown have been taken readily available published material **

And apart from that, only the Piccadilly Line from Hounslow to Hatton Cross is shown in any sort of accuracy or detail.

Click the tick boxes for clarity.

The new lines, which I have added to my old diagram, are based on various ideas that have arisen in the past which I have adjusted in the light of site visits, knowledge, etc.

** Piccadilly Line Alternative was for a different route into the central area that was considered and then rejected. I've stuck this in for your amusement.
** SWATH is Southwestern Approach to Heathrow and shows two routes. The route in the far west in pale blue is the T5 route. Note how it hugs the M25 before going below ground at the Horton Road Roundabout. The Site of Special Scientific Interest is clipped at the approach to the Windsor Branch, but this has already been violated by the containers and truck bodies visible when you zoom in to the plan. The line is tucked behind the old Staines West branch earthworks to afford some privacy, although the M25 pretty well destroys that anyway. One refinement is using the old branch line infrastructure south of the Windsor Branch to provide a grade-separated flying junction, although this may be a luxury. Also shown is the avoiding line at Staines. The other route in pale green is one that has popped up from time to time as an alternative and has an intermediate station at Clockhouse. The last version I saw was actually elevated as it crossed the Clockhouse Roundabout. Whoever it was thought this was a good idea... It would involved a very steep incline to the north, but the station would have been interesting. My modification is that the line should dip straight into a tunnel as close to the junction as possible. Somewhere, sometime ago, this was being seriously considered and I have a glossy pamphlet somewhere. But I can't be bothered to look for it now. I have a faint idea that the proposed line also swept through the country park to the west of Bedfont Road in a wide arc. That's a no-no. Personal choice is that the Staines route is the best, in spite of the SSSI.
** WRATH is the well-known and preferred Western Approach to Heathrow, and is tunnelled for much of its length. Construction of the grade-separated junction at Langley should prove interesting. This is more likely to happen, otherwise No Comment.
** And finally, in light red/pink is the Piccadilly Branch to Feltham. This miserable idea kept popping up on various websites and in the local press, suggested by people who should know better and has been doing the rounds for years, and I've put it in for your amusement/despair/tedious groaning and unwanted sighing. It would be single track, in tunnel, with a single underground platform at Feltham and would be operated on an in-out principle, trains coming in from Hatton Cross, reversing and continuing to Terminal 4. Ugh. What a palaver. Rejected. Utterly.

But Wait! What light from yonder window breaks! The Terminal 4 branch of the Heathrow Express/GWR/Elizabeth Line could be extended over the suggested western leg of this proposal to Feltham! It would be single track and there would be a forced interchange with the SWR Windsor/Reading lines. No through running, OHL, one set of points (if at all), and best of all, relatively cheap! That's apart from the horrible ground conditions of layers of gravel, clay and a high water table, but the other subterranean structures in the area have managed. It puts paid to all those problems with level crossings, capacity, and other painful bouts of Extendonitis involving Woking and other such dismal pits of hopelessness. This idea has legs but I'm sticking to Staines. Which sounds worse that it actually is.

Mr. SW.

TLDR Look at the map
 

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
2,244
Agreed, but only because that car park would be within Hillingdon and therefore inside ULEZ.

The level crossing removal project is the tunnel to Virginia Water.
A tunnel through the terrain in the area isn't going to be cheap or easy, so I may humbly suggest removing the existing Weybridge services on the line and replacing the level crossings on that section.

And the car park wouldn't be in ULEZ (a major incentive for building said station in that location). I'd place the station and car park on the field south of J14, next to the quarry off Leylands Ln.
Using the map here, that area is exempted from ULEZ, due to the only access for Stanwell Moor in Surrey, formerly Middlesex, is from that junction and the A3113 Airport Way:
 

PTR 444

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2019
Messages
2,288
Location
Wimborne
A tunnel through the terrain in the area isn't going to be cheap or easy, so I may humbly suggest removing the existing Weybridge services on the line and replacing the level crossings on that section.
Well good luck trying to do that! Unless you want to cut Egham and Thorpe Lea in half, you’re going to need to build several bridges in an area where land is scarce.
 

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
2,244
Well good luck trying to do that! Unless you want to cut Egham and Thorpe Lea in half, you’re going to need to build several bridges in an area where land is scarce.
For Staines to VW, I'd lower the line under Thorpe and Vicarage Rds (shouldn't be an issue with clearance on third rail lines) and build an overbridge for Prune Hill (which wouldn't be an issue as there is plenty of land to the west).
The only VW to Woking LC of concern is by Addlestone station, which I would replace with a station on an embankment and overbridge.
Of course, this will cost a considerable amount, hence it being a long term aspiration, but not quite as much as a tunnel from Staines to VW, through sand, clay and gravel! And even if you built that tunnel, you'd still have to grade separate the crossing at Addlestone.
 

LUYMun

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2018
Messages
834
Location
Somewhere
Since we are in Speculative after all, why not just go Australian-style and rebuild Egham, Chertsey and Addlestone stations to a sub-surface level so they're grade-separated from the road network?
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,395
Since we are in Speculative after all, why not just go Australian-style and rebuild Egham, Chertsey and Addlestone stations to a sub-surface level so they're grade-separated from the road network?

Given the objection to spending on railways from some quarters, why not put the roads underground (it's then not a railway spend)?!?!
 

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
2,244
Since we are in Speculative after all, why not just go Australian-style and rebuild Egham, Chertsey and Addlestone stations to a sub-surface level so they're grade-separated from the road network?
:lol: :lol:
No point with Chertsey, there's a overbridge on virtually the same road route 150m away, but Egham and Addlestone - why not lol!
 

Top