Heating on buses

[Baxenden Bank]

The notice reproduced below was published on First Potteries website on 6th November.

Whilst it is good that they have communicated with passengers, am I the only one to think that heating in the passenger saloon should be a separate function from engine function?

Do any car drivers out there have car heating which only functions once the engine has run warm?

Trains have air conditioning / heating which do not rely on engine heat to function.

I accept the need for the engine to be running in order to keep the battery charged / to supply current directly to run heating operated by electric but surely, in this day and age, when comparable transport systems such as cars / trains offer a superior level of comfort it is time for bus manufacturers / fleet buyers to up their game and supply a vehicle fit for purpose.

The opposite applies in summer of course when the same hot water is pushed around the bus saloon in order for it to cool and be returned to cool the engine!

Customer Information – heating on our buses

With winter well on the way, we wanted to let you know what we’re doing to make sure your bus is warm. We understand how important it is to have a warm bus on a cold day and our teams work hard to provide this.
• On the majority of our vehicles, drivers cannot control the heating – it is pre-set in our depot. Our engineers need to get everything up and running as winter approaches and they do this throughout October & November. They also regularly check the heating systems throughout the winter (and this year we’ve starting checking the temperature of our buses as they arrive back at our depot to identify any problems) – if there are any unexpected problems our drivers report them and we fix as soon as possible.
• Getting your bus warm relies on the engine warming up – this can take longer if your bus has to stop frequently to pick up customers. Buses are large vehicles, and take a while to warm up. It can take over an hour for your bus to warm up, depending on the vehicle – it may take longer on very cold days. Most of our buses leave our depot between 5 & 6am, but some as late as 7.30am so may still be warming up on your morning journey. To avoid burning excess fuel, we don’t start our buses until they’re ready to depart.
• If you’re on a service that stops often heat will escape when the doors are open – if you have your pass ready or the right money for your journey it will help get all customers on board quickly.
• If the windows are open, the heat will escape from the bus. Please think of your fellow passengers before opening a window. If you think the bus is cold and there are windows open, please feel free to close them.
• Finally, the temperature our buses can get to is dependent on the outside temperature – on an especially cold day our buses cannot get as warm as they would on a milder day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I accept the need for the engine to be running in order to keep the battery charged / to supply current directly to run heating operated by electric but surely, in this day and age, when comparable transport systems such as cars / trains offer a superior level of comfort it is time for bus manufacturers / fleet buyers to up their game and supply a vehicle fit for purpose.

Agreed. Though amusing thing: the Milton Keynes electric buses have...diesel heaters! I'd imagine a Webasto warms up the saloon quicker than waste engine heat, though.

FWIW, most cars also use waste engine heat, though they tend to warm up much quicker than buses.

I don't however think they did well to say this (whether true or not):

"To avoid burning excess fuel, we don’t start our buses until they’re ready to depart."

as it basically says "we're too cheap to heat the buses up". Not a sensible bit of publicity even if honest. It might have been better publicity to say "to avoid excessive pollution" or similar

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Agreed. Though amusing thing: the Milton Keynes electric buses have...diesel heaters! I'd imagine a Webasto warms up the saloon quicker than waste engine heat, though.

FWIW, most cars also use waste engine heat, though they tend to warm up much quicker than buses.

I don't however think they did well to say this (whether true or not):

"To avoid burning excess fuel, we don’t start our buses until they’re ready to depart."

as it basically says "we're too cheap to heat the buses up". Not a sensible bit of publicity even if honest. It might have been better publicity to say "to avoid excessive pollution" or similar

In the 'good old days' buses would be pre-started to allow the saloon to be warm before entering service. As stated that would require staff (costs money) and burn fuel (costs money and increases pollution).

It would be interesting to know (although difficult to determine) how many passengers have been put off using buses due to them being cold. Just one of the many factors affecting modal choice, or choice of whether to travel on a particular day.

 

[overthewater]

The newer darts and E200 have electric fan heater that blow out Hot air, and to be fair its a pile of crap and woefully poor at heating the buses. Newer Alx400 and E400 have to fan heats and do a better job.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be interesting to know (although difficult to determine) how many passengers have been put off using buses due to them being cold. Just one of the many factors affecting modal choice, or choice of whether to travel on a particular day.

If more than a small number of current passengers complain about something, it is almost certain to have put *someone* off choosing the bus at all. The question (in a commercial environment) is whether it is *enough* people that the additional fares taken as a result of solving the problem exceeds the cost of solving it.

 

[the101]

Agreed. Though amusing thing: the Milton Keynes electric buses have...diesel heaters! I'd imagine a Webasto warms up the saloon quicker than waste engine heat, though.

FWIW, most cars also use waste engine heat, though they tend to warm up much quicker than buses.

I don't however think they did well to say this (whether true or not):

"To avoid burning excess fuel, we don’t start our buses until they’re ready to depart."

as it basically says "we're too cheap to heat the buses up". Not a sensible bit of publicity even if honest. It might have been better publicity to say "to avoid excessive pollution" or similar

Whether they are 'too cheap' to start the buses up an hour before departure from the depot is irrelevant. A reasonably sized diesel engine is not going to generate much in the way of waste heat left on tickover and (moreover) will not reach operating temperature until it is 'worked'. Leaving it idling for ages thus has the potential to cause a huge amount of wear and shorten the unit's life considerably.

This will become increasingly prominent as Euro 6 comes in the industry, where a high exhaust temperature is necessary and there is something in the legislation that more or less stipulates how long from engine start to when the required emissions level must be achieved, which is dependent on exhaust temperature.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That may well be true - my point was more that what they said made them look cheap. They could and should have worded it differently.

 

[the101]

That may well be true - my point was more that what they said made them look cheap. They could and should have worded it differently.

Perhaps they could have, but equally they are being perfectly honest and realistic in what they say.

 

[90019]

Do any car drivers out there have car heating which only functions once the engine has run warm?

Yes, on every car I've owned.

 

[Johncleesefan]

On trains The engine cooling system (coolant) has a secondary function of providing the saloon heating using the waste heat from the engine. The the train does need to warm up just like a bus

 

[overthewater]

Yet for many new buses this is no longer the case.

 

[the101]

Yet for many new buses this is no longer the case.

If you're suggesting that on many new buses saloon heat is no longer harvested from the coolant I would be interested to know which ones.

 

[extendedpaul]

I've always found heated buses in mild weather much more of a problem than the reverse.:roll:

 

[overthewater]

If you're suggesting that on many new buses saloon heat is no longer harvested from the coolant I would be interested to know which ones.

I postage this yesterday:

The newer darts and E200 have electric fan heater that blow out Hot air, and to be fair its a pile of crap and woefully poor at heating the buses. Newer Alx400 and E400 have to fan heats and do a better job.

The amount of times there blow out cold air because its broken is getting beyond a joke.

 

[Andyh82]

Heating on when not needed is probably more of an issue in my opinion. Probably because the heating is turned on by the depot so if we get an unusually mild day in autumn/winter, the heating will still be blasting out.

As long as the bus isn't like ice, like getting on a pacer that has been sat outside all night with the doors open, most people will be wrapped up for cold weather.