Heinz Factory near Wigan to get its own siding?

[4F89]

That's the main complication - all there is is (as things stand) is a single crossover at Parbold and the pointwork at Southport, which judging by NW6009 sequences/pages 4 to 7 is not exactly conducive to a run-around itself, either. If you are going for a pad, though, you can leave the wagons in place or have the loco propel back to Wigan Wallgate junction where a through siding is available, or even the junction.


If there is a long enough time slot, a propelling move is possible. I don't know what the score would be like for signalling such a manoeuvre, however, as "setting back" generally requires direct authorisation from the signaller.

Which is why it is easy to do under a T3 posession, can do what you like then in terms of wrong directions, propelling, shunting etc. Take a T3, do the job, hand it back, job done.

 

[Greybeard33]

In this case, redouble the line and install bidirectional running capability on the up line to allow passenger trains in both directions to pass the freight blocking the down. This would also be an option if only a pad was provided for the Heinz factory, but require more crossovers to be installed than just one leading to a siding, so that is surely the only option of passenger traffic to Southport is not to be obstructed.

The arrival/departure siding (headshunt) for the Knowsley binliner terminal is alongside the single track main line in the vicinity of the proposed Headbolt Lane station. Effectively the siding is on the alignment of what was the Up Liverpool line in the original double track formation, while the Down Liverpool has become the Up and Down Main. At its east end the siding forks into a junction with the main line and the branch to the Knowsley terminal. Therefore binliners have to reverse in the siding to head from Knowsley to Wigan or vice versa. The single track Rainford to Kirkby section is token operated, with a token machine at the Knowsley ground frame to enable freights to be locked into the siding while a passenger train is on the main line.

This is a quite different layout from a possible Heinz siding, which would have to be alongside the existing double track formation, preferably with a runaround loop, making four tracks in all. I doubt if such a configuration would be compatible with the existing Absolute Block signalling between Wigan and Parbold (the factory is outwith the Wigan Wallgate station limits). Resignalling the area would greatly increase the cost of the siding project.

 

[edwin_m]

Which is why it is easy to do under a T3 posession, can do what you like then in terms of wrong directions, propelling, shunting etc. Take a T3, do the job, hand it back, job done.

For a regular propelling move of several hundred metres leading up to a junction, I think you'd need someone at the front either walking with a radio (unlikely) or in the modern equivalent of a brake van. I think converted containers have been used for this purpose. Even then there are hazards, for example you'd probably lose protection of TPWS at the junction because the receiver is at the back of the train.

 

[4F89]

For a regular propelling move of several hundred metres leading up to a junction, I think you'd need someone at the front either walking with a radio (unlikely) or in the modern equivalent of a brake van. I think converted containers have been used for this purpose. Even then there are hazards, for example you'd probably lose protection of TPWS at the junction because the receiver is at the back of the train.

And? It's in a T3, shunter walks it back after the run round, then wrong direction move to take it back towards Wigan. TPWS is deactivated in a T3 anyway, and all signals are disregarded....

 

[Cletus]

The BBC programme Inside The Factory had an episode at the Wigan site a few years ago. This one is about Baked Beans, and I think there was also an episode about Heinz soup.

Inside the Factory : Baked Beans - video Dailymotion

Inside the Factory : Baked Beans Inside the Factory Series 2 Episode 3: Baked Beans Gregg Wallace helps to unload 27 tonnes of dried haricot beans from North America and follows them on a one and a half mile journey through the largest baked bean factory in the world which makes more 3 million...

www.dailymotion.com

 

[plugwash]

Which is why it is easy to do under a T3 posession, can do what you like then in terms of wrong directions, propelling, shunting etc. Take a T3, do the job, hand it back, job done.

Is it considered acceptable to use a possession for regular freight moves (as opposed to engineering works)?

 

[D6130]

Is it considered acceptable to use a possession for regular freight moves (as opposed to engineering works)?

Was a T3 possession used for the timber loading trials on the Far North line, or were they just carried out by occupying the section for an extended time between scheduled trains?

 

[furnessvale]

The BBC programme Inside The Factory had an episode at the Wigan site a few years ago. This one is about Baked Beans, and I think there was also an episode about Heinz soup.

Inside the Factory : Baked Beans - video Dailymotion

Inside the Factory : Baked Beans Inside the Factory Series 2 Episode 3: Baked Beans Gregg Wallace helps to unload 27 tonnes of dried haricot beans from North America and follows them on a one and a half mile journey through the largest baked bean factory in the world which makes more 3 million...

www.dailymotion.com

Thanks for that link, most interesting.

It confirms my thoughts that a healthy trainload (1179 tonnes payload) of tinplate would be a weekly possibility from Trostre to Kitt Green.

Even the haricot beans from Liverpool docks to the factory could be a possibility. At present, each container appears to be underloaded by at least a tonne to conform to UK road weight limits. Containers direct from the docks to a private siding could be fully loaded helping to change the dynamics.

An interesting one to watch over the coming months.

 

[Meerkat]

Thanks for that link, most interesting.

It confirms my thoughts that a healthy trainload (1179 tonnes payload) of tinplate would be a weekly possibility from Trostre to Kitt Green.

Even the haricot beans from Liverpool docks to the factory could be a possibility. At present, each container appears to be underloaded by at least a tonne to conform to UK road weight limits. Containers direct from the docks to a private siding could be fully loaded helping to change the dynamics.

An interesting one to watch over the coming months.

That relies on the place having room to store all these full trainloads of stuff after they arrive or before they go out.

 

[furnessvale]

That relies on the place having room to store all these full trainloads of stuff after they arrive or before they go out.

Correct, but the days of JIT relying on road transport with EXTREMELY low stockholding are numbered.

 

[4F89]

Was a T3 possession used for the timber loading trials on the Far North line, or were they just carried out by occupying the section for an extended time between scheduled trains?

Cheaper to pay for a PICOP, driver, signaller and shunter than for some sidings.

 

[Gloster]

Is it considered acceptable to use a possession for regular freight moves (as opposed to engineering works)?

From what I have read, it would not be acceptable on a long-term basis. It might be allowed on a one-off or try-out basis.

 

[Tester]

From what I have read, it would not be acceptable on a long-term basis. It might be allowed on a one-off or try-out basis.

A good time to be thinking outside the box!

What is important is that there is a clear understanding as to the status of a given section of line at a given time - T3 handles that very well.

 

[4F89]

A good time to be thinking outside the box!

What is important is that there is a clear understanding as to the status of a given section of line at a given time - T3 handles that very well.

Exactly

 

[markymark2000]

Correct, but the days of JIT relying on road transport with EXTREMELY low stockholding are numbered.

Days may be numbered but that doesn't mean that any firm is prepared for such a large change to their supply chain. One which would require more warehouse space, more internal rather than trucks arriving on site and simply dumping loads at the right area. It requires a lot more work to be done on site which I think is the main issue. A lot of changes need to be made on site to accommodate such large deliveries and get them through to the right parts of the factory at the right times rather than taking for granted that when you get to 'an hour before we run out, a truck will turn up and drop off the stuff'.

 

[furnessvale]

Days may be numbered but that doesn't mean that any firm is prepared for such a large change to their supply chain. One which would require more warehouse space, more internal rather than trucks arriving on site and simply dumping loads at the right area. It requires a lot more work to be done on site which I think is the main issue. A lot of changes need to be made on site to accommodate such large deliveries and get them through to the right parts of the factory at the right times rather than taking for granted that when you get to 'an hour before we run out, a truck will turn up and drop off the stuff'.

All correct. No-one is saying life will be easy but our reliance on long distance diesel fuelled HGVs has to end, and long distance electric hauled rail for the trunk haulage is ready technology, available now, with the political will, of course.

 

[Dr Hoo]

All correct. No-one is saying life will be easy but our reliance on long distance diesel fuelled HGVs has to end, and long distance electric hauled rail for the trunk haulage is ready technology, available now, with the political will, of course.

Surely a shuttle between a pile of containers at Liverpool Docks and the factory near Wigan would be short rather than long and could easily use battery HGVs in short order. I note that Tesco are now using this technology between Wentloog Freightliner terminal and their distribution centre at Manor (not far from Llanwern).

This isn't a 'trunk' issue. Neither is it 'available now' in terms of lifting boxes on and off a container wagon underneath 25kV wires, even assuming that the Wigan-Southport route was electrified.

 

[D6130]

Surely a shuttle between a pile of containers at Liverpool Docks and the factory near Wigan would be short rather than long and could easily use battery HGVs in short order. I note that Tesco are now using this technology between Wentloog Freightliner terminal and their distribution centre at Manor (not far from Llanwern).

This isn't a 'trunk' issue. Neither is it 'available now' in terms of lifting boxes on and off a container wagon underneath 25kV wires, even assuming that the Wigan-Southport route was electrified.

Going back to the OP, I thought that the main traffic involved would be containers from the Heinz plant in the Netherlands being unloaded at Hull and transported across the Pennines to Wigan?

 

[507020]

Surely a shuttle between a pile of containers at Liverpool Docks and the factory near Wigan would be short rather than long and could easily use battery HGVs in short order. I note that Tesco are now using this technology between Wentloog Freightliner terminal and their distribution centre at Manor (not far from Llanwern).

This isn't a 'trunk' issue. Neither is it 'available now' in terms of lifting boxes on and off a container wagon underneath 25kV wires, even assuming that the Wigan-Southport route was electrified.

There is a very direct and mostly electrified rail route through St Helens from the Port of Liverpool to the Heinz factory. Even over a relatively short distance the efficiency gains of rail over road will be equal to those over longer distances.

What you need to do to lift containers vertically off wagons is first leave the wires, which isn’t difficult to do at Wigan, using some Diesel or battery last mile capability. The alternative is to unload pallets from the side of wagons horizontally.

Going back to the OP, I thought that the main traffic involved would be containers from the Heinz plant in the Netherlands being unloaded at Hull and transported across the Pennines to Wigan?

This is even better, although it’s unfortunate that the Bolton - Bury - Rochdale line isn’t open to keep freight flows out of central Manchester.

 

[Skie]

Could they build a crane next to the factory? A cantilever with enough reach or even gantry crane. Obviously rules out putting wiring up!

 

[Brian1947]

Going back to the OP, I thought that the main traffic involved would be containers from the Heinz plant in the Netherlands being unloaded at Hull and transported across the Pennines to Wigan?

You are correct, but as I have said previously this could (should) open the door for many other products that are used either for manufacturing or are finished goods such as those from the Elst sauces factory.

The last line of the press release is interesting though - Heinz hope/expect to provide an update in 2022. Still a lot of 2022 to go, let’s hope the update comes sooner rather than later.

 

[furnessvale]

Surely a shuttle between a pile of containers at Liverpool Docks and the factory near Wigan would be short rather than long and could easily use battery HGVs in short order. I note that Tesco are now using this technology between Wentloog Freightliner terminal and their distribution centre at Manor (not far from Llanwern).

This isn't a 'trunk' issue. Neither is it 'available now' in terms of lifting boxes on and off a container wagon underneath 25kV wires, even assuming that the Wigan-Southport route was electrified.

Unless the Gov changes weight limits (which it will probably do, mustn't upset the road lobby), using battery power will result in a loss of a further 3 tonnes of payload in each container, further aiding rail's case.

Tesco are experimenting with two battery powered HGVs (not yet in service) at Wentloog. Presumably the swap bodies they carry will be selected, based on their less than max weight. Their recharging regime will also be interesting to observe with hours out of service.

OHLE would not extend into the private siding, a bi mode loco would work from electrified lines, or full diesel from non OHLE lines, still vastly more CO2 efficient than HGVs. I still believe talk of working from a "pad" into a factory this size is fanciful, except perhaps as a proving exercise.

 

[CdBrux]

I find it quite amazing how many people here seem to be searching for ways to make this as complicated as possible which would reduce the likelyhood of it happening. What is needed is a simple and practical solution

 

[4F89]

I find it quite amazing how many people here seem to be searching for ways to make this as complicated as possible which would reduce the likelyhood of it happening. What is needed is a simple and practical solution

Exactly, and cost effective.

 

[507020]

I find it quite amazing how many people here seem to be searching for ways to make this as complicated as possible which would reduce the likelyhood of it happening. What is needed is a simple and practical solution

Just not one that:
1. Blocks the main line for any length of time
2. Involves a wrong direction movement the line is not signalled for
3. Disturbs residents of Parbold at night
4. Constrains maximum train length
Or 5. Limits the number of trains that can run.

 

[The Planner]

Just not one that:
1. Blocks the main line for any length of time
2. Involves a wrong direction movement the line is not signalled for
3. Disturbs residents of Parbold at night
4. Constrains maximum train length
Or 5. Limits the number of trains that can run.

Which is why the T3 option covers all of them. As has been suggested earlier, Heinz are not going to pay for an all singing solution.

 

[Tester]

Which is why the T3 option covers all of them. As has been suggested earlier, Heinz are not going to pay for an all singing solution.

Absolutely

If our railways are to remain relevant to our future, we have to break away from the 'We can't use a T3 because that's not what T3s are for' mindset.

 

[John Brannelly]

I liked Furnessvale’s reference to the days of JIT being “numbered”. Opposite to our house is a small industrial estate, with perhaps a dozen hgvs visiting every weekday. A few of these seem to be there for about fifteen minutes, suggesting to me that they aren’t delivering much. Is that down to JIT? Rail delivery to this site isn’t practical, but a reduction in truck movements would be welcome as the road is just a lane, with an ambulance depot and two secondary schools. I hope that “Just in time“ as a practice, will die out.

 

[507020]

Absolutely

If our railways are to remain relevant to our future, we have to break away from the 'We can't use a T3 because that's not what T3s are for' mindset.

A T3 may be acceptable for a trial but not when it is an excuse not to fund the infrastructure intervention to provide a siding and crossover to allow multiple trains to run during the day.

I liked Furnessvale’s reference to the days of JIT being “numbered”. Opposite to our house is a small industrial estate, with perhaps a dozen hgvs visiting every weekday. A few of these seem to be there for about fifteen minutes, suggesting to me that they aren’t delivering much. Is that down to JIT? Rail delivery to this site isn’t practical, but a reduction in truck movements would be welcome as the road is just a lane, with an ambulance depot and two secondary schools. I hope that “Just in time“ as a practice, will die out.

It is downright dangerous as a practice. Even ignoring all the people killed by HGVs, if there is any obstruction to them arriving constantly, whether it is caused by the roads, staffing or anything else, the supply simply dries up with no contingency. How can this be allowed to happen?

 

[Tester]

A T3 may be acceptable for a trial but not when it is an excuse not to fund the infrastructure intervention to provide a siding and crossover to allow multiple trains to run during the day.

Sadly, I think that sums up my point rather well

So, nothing to do with safety, operational practicality or economic reality - regardless of circumstance it's a siding and crossover, or no use of rail.

Let me take a stab at which it would be.

I reiterate.....

If our railways are to remain relevant to our future, we have to break away from the 'We can't use a T3 because that's not what T3s are for' mindset.