Help with HMCTS baliffs

[xamberlouise]

First time here and posting after recommendation from a someone on Reddit, hi everyone.

I’m based in London and had bailiffs turn up at my mother house this morning. I’ve actually been homeless since March 2023 and have been staying in between my mum and my dads and a few other places, but have had my mums address on my ID for the last 6 months. I have now idea what this fine was about and haven’t been given any letter from either my mum and dad but the bailiff told me it was regarding a train fine and I should contact the court.

I contacted the court and found out the offence was an unpaid train ticket at Hadley Wood on the 1st June, this is with TFL train company. I honestly have no recollection of this but I know I was staying at a friends in Potters Bar at that time, and Hadley Wood isn’t very far from there and I can also see from my photo gallery I was at a rave very early hours of the 1st of June. So my best guess is that it was infact me being stopped and it is possible that I wouldn’t have paid for a ticket travelling back from rave and likely intoxicated, which is why I have no recollection.

But I had absolutely no knowledge that this had even gone to court or even received any sort of communication from them, until the bailiffs showed up this morning. The baliffs are asking me to pay £770 which seems like a massive amount and threatening removal of goods. I would have paid the fine before it went to court if I had known about it before and find it really unfair we’ve all these extra charges as I’m already struggling as it is. I have been given a form from the court about reopening the case or will I still having to end up paying?


Editiing to add: I originally posted this, this morning on Reddit and since then havent completed a statuary declaration via this link https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/statutory-declaration-of-ignorance-of-proceedings which was provided to me by the court and then given the bailiff the reference number but what happens now?

 

[island]

Fines do grow if unpaid so it's quite possible for it to have racked up to £770 by now.

You were right to look at a statutory declaration. A statutory declaration can only be completed in person before a magistrate or a commissioner for oaths, on a paper form which has to be submitted to the court.. It cannot be completed online or over the telephone. Whatever you may have done online, it was not a statutory declaration. So you'll still need to do that. Only when it's done will it stop the bailiffs.

Once you've done your statutory declaration, this essentially "turns back the clock" to the start of the court proceedings and allows you to plead guilty or not guilty.

It might also be possible to pay to settle out of court with the train company after you've properly done your statutory declaration, but you'll need to work out which train company you're dealing with – it's not TfL, as they don't serve Hadley Wood/Potter's Bar. If not, you'll still probably get a lower fine than £770 as they can base it on your actual income (or lack thereof) – ticketless travel usually incurs a fine of between 50% and 100% of a week's income, or £60/£120 if you are unwaged or a student.

 

[xamberlouise]

Fines do grow if unpaid so it's quite possible for it to have racked up to £770 by now.

You were right to look at a statutory declaration. A statutory declaration can only be completed in person before a magistrate or a commissioner for oaths, on a paper form which has to be submitted to the court.. It cannot be completed online or over the telephone. Whatever you may have done online, it was not a statutory declaration. So you'll still need to do that. Only when it's done will it stop the bailiffs.

Once you've done your statutory declaration, this essentially "turns back the clock" to the start of the court proceedings and allows you to plead guilty or not guilty.

It might also be possible to pay to settle out of court with the train company after you've properly done your statutory declaration, but you'll need to work out which train company you're dealing with – it's not TfL, as they don't serve Hadley Wood/Potter's Bar. If not, you'll still probably get a lower fine than £770 as they can base it on your actual income (or lack thereof) – ticketless travel usually incurs a fine of between 50% and 100% of a week's income, or £60/£120 if you are unwaged or a student.

Thank you so much for your response. Do you have any idea what that form that I filled out was then? From what I’m gathering it might be an application to make a statutory declaration? Do I need to wait to hear back from them before actually making one, how do I go about making one, do I just need to contact a solicitor? Also, do you know if this conviction type shows up on DBS checks? I’m meant be starting university to study midwifery in September and now I’m really worried.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you so much for your response. Do you have any idea what that form that I filled out was then? From what I’m gathering it might be an application to make a statutory declaration? Do I need to wait to hear back from them before actually making one, how do I go about making one, do I just need to contact a solicitor? Also, do you know if this conviction type shows up on DBS checks? I’m meant be starting university to study midwifery in September and now I’m really worried.

You will need to disclose any conviction, spent or otherwise, appearing on a DBS or otherwise, if you intend to register as a midwife; the profession is exempt from the provisions of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. I would ask the university what the situation is with *your course* and what disclosures are required. They should have made it very clear.

 

[pedr]

Did you fill in the online form that’s here: https://options-after-magistrates-court-decision.form.service.justice.gov.uk ?

If you filled in the paper form from the link you posted you need to take that to a solicitor before posting it to the court. The final pages on the online system (if you say No to the earlier options) explain the options and if you choose the “make a statement in court” option I think the court will then contact you with a date to do that, but the statement isn’t “made” until that date. If you choose the “before a legal representative” option it explains you need to contact a Commissioner for Oaths (which effectively means a solicitor, in practice).

 

[island]

Thank you so much for your response. Do you have any idea what that form that I filled out was then?

No idea, but if it wasn’t signed in person by yourself before a magistrate or commissioner for oaths, it wasn’t a statutory declaration. (Sometimes a statutory declaration is referred to as a legal statement.)

From what I’m gathering it might be an application to make a statutory declaration?

Possibly.

Do I need to wait to hear back from them before actually making one, how do I go about making one, do I just need to contact a solicitor?

You can download the form online, fill it out, and take it to be witnessed by one of the above.

Also, do you know if this conviction type shows up on DBS checks? I’m meant be starting university to study midwifery in September and now I’m really worried.

It depends on what offence you were charged with. I cannot say what that was. You can request a DBS check on yourself online for around twenty quid.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you so much for your response. Do you have any idea what that form that I filled out was then? From what I’m gathering it might be an application to make a statutory declaration? Do I need to wait to hear back from them before actually making one, how do I go about making one, do I just need to contact a solicitor? Also, do you know if this conviction type shows up on DBS checks? I’m meant be starting university to study midwifery in September and now I’m really worried.

Whatever you do you need to do this process correctly and in a way that maximises the time to try and get the railway company to agree to drop the case in court and settle with you out of court

This is going to need some focussed and careful work by you to achieve the outcome you need. There is a short timescale for doing the SD after you learned about it. And to get good advice you need to find out which rail company prosecuted you and when etc. do not delay on what to do but do not rush it. Get advice here about it

There are other recent threads involving SDs that will help. Have a search for them.

Ask the questions you need to get to understand what’s happened and what to do.

Have you moved address since you were stopped that day without a ticket. That may be the start of the problem.

It seems to
Me you need to know who prosecuted you and when and why. You need to obtain that from the court. You need to do things in writing so you have evidence you can rely on.

Have a read of this thread which maybe of help to you to get a sense of the process

Statutory declaration hearing

Hello I was hopping to get some advice here as I’ve asked around with friends and family and can’t seem to find anyone in my situation I’m a 2nd year university student and around September 2023 i was caught with no train ticket I filled the form with my details and they said they were going to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[xamberlouise]

You will need to disclose any conviction, spent or otherwise, appearing on a DBS or otherwise, if you intend to register as a midwife; the profession is exempt from the provisions of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. I would ask the university what the situation is with *your course* and what disclosures are required. They should have made it very clear.

I am very aware of that and already made declaration to them during the interview process and of course, I’m going to have to declare this now that I have found out about it. I just wanted to know if it would actually be written on the DBS.

Did you fill in the online form that’s here: https://options-after-magistrates-court-decision.form.service.justice.gov.uk ?

Yes actually sorry! I managed to accidentally paste the wrong link in my original message but that is the link that was given to me by the court and I’ve filled out. I’m a little confused now as I don’t actually believe its a paper form, I received a a confirmation email that thanked me for my submission and has given me a reference number?

This is going to need some focussed and careful work by you to achieve the outcome you need. There is a short timescale for doing the SD after you learned about it. And to get good advice you need to find out which rail company prosecuted you and when etc. do not delay on what to do but do not rush it. Get advice here about it

How would I go about finding which train company prosecuted me? Will I need to contact the court again? I did at first believe it was TFL but they don’t cover the station in question. My next best bet is Great Northern. I know I was prosecuted in Jan.

Have you moved address since you were stopped that day without a ticket. That may be the start of the problem.

It seems to
Me you need to know who prosecuted you and when and why. You need to obtain that from the court. You need to do things in writing so you have evidence you can rely on.

I was homeless and still am technically, during that time I was staying with a friend and have since been at my dads and have only staying my mums for the last two or three months. I don’t have any idea what address I would have even given them.

What I’m gathering is I need to call the court again tomorrow, find out which train company it was and what the actual offence was.

Is there anything I can do at this point to have the offence completely overturned. I had read somewhere that when the SD is in place you can try take the original case back to just the train company? Maybe I’m mistaken. If not I really hope I can at least have the debt lowered.

Thank you so much for all your help. I really appreciate it.

Edit: if it helps at all it’s the single justice service I spoke to at the court.

 

[xamberlouise]

And now I’m really panicking because I dont know if I clicked the right option, when asked ‘What part of the court decision are you challenging?’ I clicked ‘The outcome (sentence) of my hearing’ was that the right option? The other option was regarding the outcome. I guess I am guilty if I was stopped and didn’t have a ticket but was that the right option to click? I’m so worried

 

[furlong]

Not the outcome. You gave the wrong answer to one of the earlier questions.

In the text box did you explain that you didn't know about the case? If so, they should realise you picked the wrong option. I expect this happens a lot.

The relevant questions are:

Did you make a plea?
Answer No. I did not know about the original hearing or was unable to make a plea.

Do you want your case to be re-opened?
Answer No, I want to make a legal statement
(You must have answered Yes.)


This would have given you the choice:

I want to make a statement in court that I did not know about the conviction
I want to make a statement before a legal representative

If you choose the first one, it then asks you for your new plea - and you don't really want to fill this bit in immediately as you probably still haven't seen all the relevant papers!

If you choose the second one, it basically just tells you to go to a local solicitor.

If you take that second one i.e. do a stat dec at a local solicitor (for a nominal fee), it should take precedence over anything you entered into that form and it's the option people on the forum tend to suggest usually works out best.

 

[xamberlouise]

Not the outcome. You gave the wrong answer to one of the earlier questions.

In the text box did you explain that you didn't know about the case? If so, they should realise you picked the wrong option. I expect this happens a lot.

The relevant questions are:

Did you make a plea?
Answer No. I did not know about the original hearing or was unable to make a plea.

Do you want your case to be re-opened?
Answer No, I want to make a legal statement
(You must have answered Yes.)

Youre correct. Luckily I did explain in the text box that I didn’t know anything about the case or the proceedings until the bailiffs turnt up this morning. I should have waiting for advice but bailiffs were saying they were going to proceed with removals tomorrow and I was told by the court that the reference number from this from would also pause enforcement. The court also did word it as having my case reopened, that’s why I clicked yes to that answer.

I also can’t see from my summary of answers but if they asked me for a plea, I would have clicked guilty as I thought I am if they have caught me without a ticket. Im not sure how to proceed now.

 

[tixy]

Here is some advice from the fines enforcement side of things.

It is good that you have identified the case, what it is about and what you intend to do.

To be practical and to minimise distress, I would advise the following. This is the only way you can way you can rewind the clock. The OP can go down this route because it is the bailiff action which made him aware of the fine.

Firstly you will Need to download and fill in the following form

Statutory declaration of ignorance of proceedings

Use this form to make a declaration of ignorance of proceedings

www.gov.uk

Any other forms filled out either online or on the phone is to re-open a case for either a full appeal or a means hearing, not a Stat Dec.

Once the form is completed, take it to a solicitor to ask them to witness and sign the form.

Take it then to the court and give it to the ushers. Tell them that is a stat dec and give them the paperwork.

Once this is done, you can email the fines enforcement team at HMCTS and ask them to hold enforcement until the matter is heard. Do not expect this to happen automatically. The courts are notoriously slow. You can copy in the bailiff company on the same email so it’s on their system too.

 

[DH159]

It would help your mum for her to try to find proof that the contents of her house belong to her not you, bailiffs can’t take away stuff unless it belongs to the person owing money.

 

[WesternLancer]

Youre correct. Luckily I did explain in the text box that I didn’t know anything about the case or the proceedings until the bailiffs turnt up this morning. I should have waiting for advice but bailiffs were saying they were going to proceed with removals tomorrow and I was told by the court that the reference number from this from would also pause enforcement. The court also did word it as having my case reopened, that’s why I clicked yes to that answer.

I also can’t see from my summary of answers but if they asked me for a plea, I would have clicked guilty as I thought I am if they have caught me without a ticket. Im not sure how to proceed now.

I hope what follows will be of help ref your situation as it seems to me - and what you need to do, and perhaps in what order.

It seems to me that you have three main objectives to achieve

1) 're set the clock' on your prosecution and conviction on the basis that you were completely unaware this had happened - via the correct use of the Statutory Deceleration (SD) process, and in such a way that it buys you time to open a negotiation with the railway company that prosecuted you in the hope that they will then allow you to settle the matter out of court and withdraw a future prosecution that they would be entitled to bring after the SD has been done

2) Stop the Court Bailiffs from turning up at the address they now have for you, demanding funds or items in relation to the debt from the unpaid court fine that you did not previously know about

3) Open negotiations with the railway company to achieve the least worst outcome, ideally an 'out of court settlement' - so that you are not prosecuted and have no criminal record to declare.

People here with various expertise can help you will all of these but you will need some focussed action on your own part, but you should check each action and stage here so experts have a chance to advise you on how best to go about them, or where applicable the pros and cons of any choices you have.

General approach

In my view, and wherever possible, all of this must be done in writing, or if things are done over the phone, confirmed in writing (e-mail or letter) afterwards. It will be very important you have a record of anything you have asked, the reply, and that you keep it. If things are discussed over the phone you should keep a written note of every conversation - who you spoke to, their job title, where they work / who they work for

Your written communications need to be clear, ideally brief as possible, polite, but formal.

In tackling the above it needs to be focussed in untangling and sorting out where things are, and not getting too bogged down in what happened (I'm not judging you but the circumstances you outline do not paint yourself in a good light, so avoid mentioning them - ie - you were intoxicated, have no clear recollection of what happened, where and by who, and no paperwork from that occasion - you don't need to mention all that) - this has been compounded by your personal situation (homelessness and being of no fixed abode) which meant you did not receive postal communication after the event which has created the situation. That can be explained where necessary in a brief and formal way

for example along these lines:
"Unfortunately I have been homeless and of no fixed abode for some time, which is almost certainly the reasons I did not receive previous communications sent by the railway company or the court. Having been at a variety of temporary addresses over time, and often having to move form them at short notice, I can not at this stage verify accurately what address I may have given to railway staff at the time I was questioned about my ticket / fare. However, if it helps to trace my case records my full name is xxxxx and my date of birth is xxxxx"

Ref the stages numbered above

1) you have already had some good advice on how best to do the SD - I will also link below to some previous vases that may help you by looking over them to see what happens and the advice given. No two cases are the same but things in those examples should help you

2) I would draft a letter / e-mail to the bailiffs briefly setting out that you had no knowledge of the prosecution or the court fine, and that you have commenced the process of making a Statutory Declaration. Ask them if they will pause any action they are taking against you whilst you do this. I suspect you should do this today.

They will probably say they won't pause anything until instructed to do so by the court - however, you will have placed it on record about what you are doing, and they might just go and pursue someone else for a few days, not turn up again at your mum's house demanding money or belongings of value.
@tixy might have some helpful advice on this perhaps
EDIT - I see @tixy has given some advice in post #12 whilst I wrote this post

3) You need to find out form the court who prosecuted you for this (not just based on a guess about what station it might have been at) - as soon as the SD is in I would suggest writing to that railway company to let them know what you are doing and to ask if you can resolve matters with them without the need for court action when the SD has been accepted by the court (or some such wording). Your first stage in this is finding out the exact court prosecution date, what for and who by. Again they may say they need to be informed of the SD - but it shows that you are co-operating with them and keen to resolve matters (which is what they want to know) and that you have not just been ignoring all this.

In all of the above give them a reliable address where post can be accepted for you and brought to your attention if it arrives, if you are no longer living there. Also give them an e-mail address, explain the homelessness situation as per my suggestion above, and ask if they can communicate with you by e-mail - which you must then check daily including in spam. Make it easy for them to communicate with you - it's in your interest to do so.

Hope all this helps

meanwhile have a look at these cases for context and info

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ed-me-for-travelling-beyond-my-ticket.281294/

from posts #14 esp post 23, 27, 31


post 24 here from @Puffing Devil

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-for-an-expired-railcard.279332/#post-7098887


Post 22 here: (and subsequent discussion points that get clarified helpfully)

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/it-wasn’t-me-penalty-fine.279914/#post-7113419

 

[tixy]

The main thing with the bailiffs is that they will always work a warrant of control while it’s live. The only way that the visits and calls stop, is if HMCTS (the courts) withdraw the warrant (which they can access directly on the bailiffs system)
This is why the OP needs to copy in the fines officer to the bailiff email he says he is sending.

Bailiffs will only force entry for fines if he has reasonable belief the goods are the debtors so it’s only the car at risk. Just be aware of the warrant going back too court and a summons/arrest warrant being issued before the stat dec is processed.

 

[WesternLancer]

The main thing with the bailiffs is that they will always work a warrant of control while it’s live. The only way that the visits and calls stop, is if HMCTS (the courts) withdraw the warrant (which they can access directly on the bailiffs system)
This is why the OP needs to copy in the fines officer to the bailiff email he says he is sending.

Bailiffs will only force entry for fines if he has reasonable belief the goods are the debtors so it’s only the car at risk. Just be aware of the warrant going back too court and a summons/arrest warrant being issued before the stat dec is processed.

Helpful info that I hope @xamberlouise finds of use.

Sounds like ref my (2) above in post #14 it's important to make contact with the Court Fines Officer to inform them what is goign on then? (and not simply automatically assume that whilst an SD works it's way through the process the Fines Officer will automatically and immediately be notified).

I hope @xamberlouise has been able to make some progress today.

 

[xamberlouise]

Thank you so much everyone for all your helpful messages.

Regarding the bailiffs, they did threaten last night that they would visit this morning but no visit was made. I did text the bailiff the reference number I was given after filling in the form I was sent by the court yesterday, but haven’t heard anything back from him. I have also sent an email to the bailiff company outlining that I didn’t know anything about the prosecution or court fines and that I’m in the process of making Statutory Declaration and sent them the reference number I was given again. If you think it’s appropriate I could also send this in a letter tomorrow.

I wasnt able to get through to the courts today as I have been really busy and was on hold for over an hour and a half but I’m going to call again at 9am, as I will be less busy tomorrow and will make sure I get through to them. I will ask them by who, when and where I was prosecuted and also ask what the form I was given to fill out actually is, because I’m still confused about that and also believe Ive clicked a wrong option. I will make sure to take a note of who I spoke to.

This all very confusing for me so I’m really thankful that you’re all here to help me and give me such thought-out, helpful responses. Its really appreciated.

Im still really confused and don’t know what to do after speaking to the court.
From what Im gathering the from I filled out was the wrong thing to do? Do I just need to contact a solicitor and make the SD? Can I still do that now that I’ve filled in the form?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you so much everyone for all your helpful messages.

Regarding the bailiffs, they did threaten last night that they would visit this morning but no visit was made. I did text the bailiff the reference number I was given after filling in the form I was sent by the court yesterday, but haven’t heard anything back from him. I have also sent an email to the bailiff company outlining that I didn’t know anything about the prosecution or court fines and that I’m in the process of making Statutory Declaration and sent them the reference number I was given again. If you think it’s appropriate I could also send this in a letter tomorrow.

I wasnt able to get through to the courts today as I have been really busy and was on hold for over an hour and a half but I’m going to call again at 9am, as I will be less busy tomorrow and will make sure I get through to them. I will ask them by who, when and where I was prosecuted and also ask what the form I was given to fill out actually is, because I’m still confused about that and also believe Ive clicked a wrong option. I will make sure to take a note of who I spoke to.

This all very confusing for me so I’m really thankful that you’re all here to help me and give me such thought-out, helpful responses. Its really appreciated.

Im still really confused and don’t know what to do after speaking to the court.
From what Im gathering the from I filled out was the wrong thing to do? Do I just need to contact a solicitor and make the SD? Can I still do that now that I’ve filled in the form?

Follow advice up thread. Fill in the correct form as per post #12 I think. If you are unclear on how to fill sections of it in ask here.

Get that dealt with by a solicitor. Make it clear that you are not seeking to get the solicitor to represent you in this matter, just to deal with the SD form.

I assume if the forms you did fill in are not correct you can ask to withdraw them.

Ref texting the bailiff all well and good and also I’m sure it’s good you followed this up with a formal e mails to the firm he works for as per my advice above. Also send a copy of that to the court fines officer I would think. Not sure if you also need to post these or not.

Where is the court you are trying to ring? Can you e mail them or go there in person if you can’t get through by phone? If you get through perhaps ask for copies of the paperwork you never received originally. I think that would tell you which railway company brought the prosecution against you.

 

[island]

Thank you so much everyone for all your helpful messages.

Regarding the bailiffs, they did threaten last night that they would visit this morning but no visit was made. I did text the bailiff the reference number I was given after filling in the form I was sent by the court yesterday, but haven’t heard anything back from him. I have also sent an email to the bailiff company outlining that I didn’t know anything about the prosecution or court fines and that I’m in the process of making Statutory Declaration and sent them the reference number I was given again. If you think it’s appropriate I could also send this in a letter tomorrow.

I wasnt able to get through to the courts today as I have been really busy and was on hold for over an hour and a half but I’m going to call again at 9am, as I will be less busy tomorrow and will make sure I get through to them. I will ask them by who, when and where I was prosecuted and also ask what the form I was given to fill out actually is, because I’m still confused about that and also believe Ive clicked a wrong option. I will make sure to take a note of who I spoke to.

This all very confusing for me so I’m really thankful that you’re all here to help me and give me such thought-out, helpful responses. Its really appreciated.

Im still really confused and don’t know what to do after speaking to the court.
From what Im gathering the from I filled out was the wrong thing to do? Do I just need to contact a solicitor and make the SD? Can I still do that now that I’ve filled in the form?

I'll write this one more time in bold so you don't miss it:

You cannot make a statutory declaration online or over the telephone. You can only do it in person, on a paper form, which must be signed by you before a magistrate, solicitor, or commissioner for oaths.

Whatever you may have done online, it was not a statutory declaration.

Your local court will not receive anything from your online adventures by this morning. Any request made there goes to a contact centre, who will work through cases received and transfer them to a court if appropriate.

You can still find out the above things you mentioned over the phone, and I would also suggest finding out "whether the case was commenced by summons or by single justice procedure notice". This will be important when you eventually come to complete the statutory declaration.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you so much everyone for all your helpful messages.

Regarding the bailiffs, they did threaten last night that they would visit this morning but no visit was made. I did text the bailiff the reference number I was given after filling in the form I was sent by the court yesterday, but haven’t heard anything back from him. I have also sent an email to the bailiff company outlining that I didn’t know anything about the prosecution or court fines and that I’m in the process of making Statutory Declaration and sent them the reference number I was given again. If you think it’s appropriate I could also send this in a letter tomorrow.

I wasnt able to get through to the courts today as I have been really busy and was on hold for over an hour and a half but I’m going to call again at 9am, as I will be less busy tomorrow and will make sure I get through to them. I will ask them by who, when and where I was prosecuted and also ask what the form I was given to fill out actually is, because I’m still confused about that and also believe Ive clicked a wrong option. I will make sure to take a note of who I spoke to.

This all very confusing for me so I’m really thankful that you’re all here to help me and give me such thought-out, helpful responses. Its really appreciated.

Im still really confused and don’t know what to do after speaking to the court.
From what Im gathering the from I filled out was the wrong thing to do? Do I just need to contact a solicitor and make the SD? Can I still do that now that I’ve filled in the form?

If there is anything you are doing in writing, feel free to post a draft of it here before sending if you think it would help for people to check it for you.

 

[xamberlouise]

Hi everyone,

Ive spoken to the court today. So the form I filled out was basically me applying to the do the SD there, they said this could take up to 6 months, I let them know that I hoping to submit the SD with a solicitor, she said if I was to do this I would just need to email them to let them know I would be doing it with a solicitor instead but that I should leave it as it is for now until I have actually spoke to a solicitor. It was Godiva Thameslink who have prosecuted me on the 13/1. It was for being in a designated ticket area without a valid ticket.

I’ve also spoke to a solicitor firm and hoping to hear back from them by later today, if not I’ll start chasing a few others so I can get started with the SD.

 

[WesternLancer]

OK - sounds like progress.

Hi everyone,

Ive spoken to the court today. So the form I filled out was basically me applying to the do the SD there, they said this could take up to 6 months, I let them know that I hoping to submit the SD with a solicitor,

see comment below

she said if I was to do this I would just need to email them to let them know I would be doing it with a solicitor instead but that I should leave it as it is for now until I have actually spoke to a solicitor.

This seems sensible

It was Godiva Thameslink who have prosecuted me on the 13/1.

This is relatively good news. Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) are known to regularly settle cases out of court (so people will then avoid a criminal record) and if you engage with them there is every reason to believe you have a good chance that they allow you to settle this without prosecuting you again, all being well.

As soon as you have submitted the SD I think you should write to GTR's prosecutions department (we can advise on their exact address - it is not customer services) to inform them what you are doing, hence opening a 'co-operative dialogue' with them - which is the approach to take to try to secure an out of court settlement.

It was for being in a designated ticket area without a valid ticket.

Did you ask the question @island suggested "whether the case was commenced by summons or by single justice procedure notice"?

Also did you happen to ask what address the court had for you that was used in the prosecution? (the address you would have given the railway inspector) - that would be handy for you to have to give to them to allow the railway to match your case, especially if you have a more common name or your date of birth was not taken when you were stopped by the inspector. Or perhaps what the ref number was on the court case paperwork.

Did you ask the court to update their records with your correct address now by any chance? (though the Bailiffs seem to have found you at your current address of course)

I’ve also spoke to a solicitor firm and hoping to hear back from them by later today, if not I’ll start chasing a few others so I can get started with the SD.

Are you clear on what you are asking the solicitor to do?

As I understand it if you download and fill in the form yourself you are only asking the solicitor to witness it / submit it (others will correct me if I am wrong) - for which they can only charge a modest fee (possibly £5 or £10)

If you want them to help you fill in the form / check it etc as well - they may charge you more for that (ask them what they would charge)

They may offer to represent you in respect of all of the process - for which you should expect them to charge £several hundred (more than £500 at a guess). I suspect that is not necessary if you feel the advice on here helps you do it yourself.

Reading through the other cases I linked to should help you see how this all works.

 

[tixy]

I can also help with the fines enforcement side of things. Please can you also scan the following;
Your latest bailiff letter (details redacted, make sure you also redact the reference numbers) as this helps me understand what stage you are at.

The court name who are dealing with your case and your nearest court.

 

[Alfonso]

If your name on here is the same as your name on tiktok/insta/whatever, you might want to ask the moderators to change it on here.
When posting any correspondence on here, also cover up any personally identifiable information

 

[xamberlouise]

OK - sounds like progress.



This is relatively good news. Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) are known to regularly settle cases out of court (so people will then avoid a criminal record) and if you engage with them there is every reason to believe you have a good chance that they allow you to settle this without prosecuting you again, all being well.

As soon as you have submitted the SD I think you should write to GTR's prosecutions department (we can advise on their exact address - it is not customer services) to inform them what you are doing, hence opening a 'co-operative dialogue' with them - which is the approach to take to try to secure an out of court settlement.

Thats good news. I still need to contact my university to declare it just in case for now, I hope they don’t just remove my offer that’s my next big worry.

Also did you happen to ask what address the court had for you that was used in the prosecution? (the address you would have given the railway inspector) - that would be handy for you to have to give to them to allow the railway to match your case, especially if you have a more common name or your date of birth was not taken when you were stopped by the inspector. Or perhaps what the ref number was on the court case paperwork.

I did ask them that and they said it commenced through the single justice procedure. I didn’t ask them about which address they held for me when I was caught but I’ll ring them again and get that tomorrow, they’re going to be sick of me lol.

Did you ask the court to update their records with your correct address now by any chance? (though the Bailiffs seem to have found you at your current address of course)

Yes I did, I briefly explained my situation but gave them a reliable address where I can receive correspondence and they also have my email and phone number now.

Are you clear on what you are asking the solicitor to do?

Yes, I think I’ll be okay with filling out the form it’s self. I did tell the firm I just wanted someone to witness the Statutory Declaration and not help with the actual case itself.

If your name on here is the same as your name on tiktok/insta/whatever, you might want to ask the moderators to change it on here.
When posting any correspondence on here, also cover up any personally identifiable information

Yes thank you, I honestly wasn’t really thinking when I made the account. I used the contact us button at the bottom of the page but I’m not sure if there’s a better way to contact mods?

Also, the court said the fine was initially £400 before the bailiffs added their fees. Of course the most important thing for me is to not under with a criminal record but how much roughly will an out of court settlement be in relation to this, will it be roughly the same or more or less?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thats good news. I still need to contact my university to declare it just in case for now, I hope they don’t just remove my offer that’s my next big worry.


I did ask them that and they said it commenced through the single justice procedure. I didn’t ask them about which address they held for me when I was caught but I’ll ring them again and get that tomorrow, they’re going to be sick of me lol.



Yes I did, I briefly explained my situation but gave them a reliable address where I can receive correspondence and they also have my email and phone number now.


Yes, I think I’ll be okay with filling out the form it’s self. I did tell the firm I just wanted someone to witness the Statutory Declaration and not help with the actual case itself.


Yes thank you, I honestly wasn’t really thinking when I made the account. I used the contact us button at the bottom of the page but I’m not sure if there’s a better way to contact mods?

Also, the court said the fine was initially £400 before the bailiffs added their fees. Of course the most important thing for me is to not under with a criminal record but how much roughly will an out of court settlement be in relation to this, will it be roughly the same or more or less?

Thanks for clarifying those points. It sounds like you are making good progress with things.

Ref your university place I’ve no idea how they would react but suspect you do need to tell them, but perhaps you can give context eg describing it as ‘a minor railway ticketing issue that escalated to court because you were unaware of the issue due to being of no fixed address and that you are now taking action to have that conviction removed and hope to be able to resolve the matter without further court action’

but how much roughly will an out of court settlement be in relation to this, will it be roughly the same or more or less?

Ref your last question. If you’d have been aware of the court action you could have completed the court paperwork relating to your income (MC100 form?) which might have resulted in a fine lower than £400 (depending on your income).

If agreed to settle in contrast, out of court GTR would be looking for the fare evaded at the full undiscounted Anytime Single price plus an ‘admin fee’ of maybe about £150. If you can get them to revert to that an admin fee might be more than this now because by having to take you to court, and now hopefully revisit the case they will have had more admin to do so might increase their typical sum, but if they do it would not usually be by an unreasonable / unjustifiable sum.

You should have funds ready (with a buffer in case my estimate is too low / off the mark) because if you get to an out of court settlement offer from them they will require payment in full and in a very short space of time (say 14 days or less)

Presumably you know the journey when you think this happened and can thus look up the fare element of this.

If it was that Potters Bar to Hadley Wood journey the current fare is £4.40 Anytime Single, which would be the fare they would consider you owe (or they might even opt for the price at the time ie the June 2024 fare which would be slightly lower.

Significantly less than the court fine let alone a court fine plus bailiffs costs

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Ref your university place I’ve no idea how they would react but suspect you do need to tell them, but perhaps you can give context eg describing it as ‘a minor railway ticketing issue that escalated to court because you were unaware of the issue due to being of no fixed address and that you are now taking action to have that conviction removed and hope to be able to resolve the matter without further court action’

Even better, quote the exact charge (which I think from above you do now know). The risk with you saying that it was a 'minor railway ticketing issue ' is that that's exactly what someone would say if they had been convicted of substantial and persistent fare fraud but they were trying to hide it. University admissions staff aren't stupid but they can be suspicious - so don't give room for a suspicion to grow.

 

[WesternLancer]

Even better, quote the exact charge (which I think from above you do now know). The risk with you saying that it was a 'minor railway ticketing issue ' is that that's exactly what someone would say if they had been convicted of substantial and persistent fare fraud but they were trying to hide it. University admissions staff aren't stupid but they can be suspicious - so don't give room for a suspicion to grow.

Thanks for that comment on my post - very good advice I think