'Higher Speed' Lines by bypassing slow sections with new track

[Kingston Dan]

About 15-20 years ago, drawings were produced for a proposed new track alignment bypassing Dunbar.

Needs to be four tracking between Drem and Waverley.

 

[AlastairFraser]

1) Realignment of parts of the Copy Pit section of the East Lancs lines.
Sorting the end of the Todmorden Curve to west of Portsmouth village would help with running times in the area, especially for freight.
The engineering solutions needed would be expensive because the geology in the area isn't great for tunneling I believe, but it would be worth it in the long term.

2) Segegrated tunnel from the northern approaches of Sheffield Midland station to Nunnery junction.
The issues around Sheffield station have to be one of the best value for money pinchpoints on the network to resolve - Castlefield, parts of the WCML etc. are all dearly needed, but won't be cheap to fix.
How to avoid the watercourses around the southern end would be a valid point, however.
3) Grade separation of Newark flat crossing.
It would help release constraints on both Nottingham to Lincoln and ECML services, and reduce the need for a deeply outdated form of infrastructure.

 

[PTR 444]

Is it possible to build a bypass from Woolston direct to a new part of Southampton Central, separate from the South Western Main Line, in order to add capacity into the region? If such a line can be built, the West Coastway can be fully segregated from main line services, with Bitterne station closed and served by local buses instead.

What would you do about Cardiff - Portsmouth trains if the West Coastway was segregated from the main line? Are you proposing they run via Botley?

 

[Austriantrain]

Rail will not be a high priority for any government. Being seen as fiscally responsible will be. Reinstating Phase 2 after it was cancelled due to high costs will open the government up to easy attacks.

Well, canceling much of HS2 definitely does not seem to have done much for the politician taking that decision. So politically, the strategy was a massive failure - a project gone for no political upside whatsoever.

Since I don’t think UK politicians are particularly stupid, I suppose this will have been noted. Even in very tax- and economics-conscious UK, people will accept large expenditure (because from some point onwards, it becomes so abstract as to be irrelevant) if they see it as useful - so retrospectively, what really has gone wrong is not the cost, but not marketing the benefits well enough (for the North, being able to travel to London faster is economically very useful - but probably not seen as such by a population which doesn’t like its capital and the people there very much. So the focus in communication should have been elsewhere)

 

[The Ham]

Depends on your definition of "dead". I don't think whatever gets built will be identical, though it will reuse work, and so in that sense I see it as dead.

I would suggest that to do something noticeable different that it would add costs and time (which adds more costs) to the point where something nearly identical would likely be highly likely.

 

[miklcct]

What would you do about Cardiff - Portsmouth trains if the West Coastway was segregated from the main line? Are you proposing they run via Botley?

Terminate them at Southampton.

 

[stevieinselby]

3) Grade separation of Newark flat crossing.
It would help release constraints on both Nottingham to Lincoln and ECML services, and reduce the need for a deeply outdated form of infrastructure.

Unfortunately not practical, or it would likely already have been done. The crossing is hemmed in by road bridges on all sides, which would require the railway to have a steeper gradient than is sensible or mean that the road bridges would need to be moved or raised.

 

[edwin_m]

Unfortunately not practical, or it would likely already have been done. The crossing is hemmed in by road bridges on all sides, which would require the railway to have a steeper gradient than is sensible or mean that the road bridges would need to be moved or raised.

This should have been done when the A46 bypass was built alongside the railway, or at least those bridges should have made provision for the rail link to be built later.

 

[zwk500]

Unfortunately not practical, or it would likely already have been done. The crossing is hemmed in by road bridges on all sides, which would require the railway to have a steeper gradient than is sensible or mean that the road bridges would need to be moved or raised.

If you bypassed Newark Castle, there is more space to the North (even if it makes the crossing of the Trent itself more complicated).

 

[Nunners]

Is it possible to build a bypass from Woolston direct to a new part of Southampton Central, separate from the South Western Main Line, in order to add capacity into the region? If such a line can be built, the West Coastway can be fully segregated from main line services, with Bitterne station closed and served by local buses instead.

If there is no space at Southampton Central, can the line be extended into new station at Southampton, and a tramway built to connect the old and new stations? The population of Southampton deserves a tramway in the city.

It would need to be quite a long tunnel if heavy rail, and would only save a few minutes. The tram would only work if it can go over the existing bridge, which might not be strong enough, especially for tram-trains

 

[BrianW]

If you bypassed Newark Castle, there is more space to the North (even if it makes the crossing of the Trent itself more complicated).

I would imagine that a range of possibilities was considered, and rejected, when arrangements at Retford were considered , and implemented.

 

[Bald Rick]

3) Grade separation of Newark flat crossing.
It would help release constraints on both Nottingham to Lincoln and ECML services, and reduce the need for a deeply outdated form of infrastructure.

Unfortunately not practical, or it would likely already have been done. The crossing is hemmed in by road bridges on all sides, which would require the railway to have a steeper gradient than is sensible or mean that the road bridges would need to be moved or raised.

It‘s very practical. But it doesnt release much (indeed any, at present) capacity on the ECML. Other constraints are in the way.

 

[Nottingham59]

Unfortunately not practical, or it would likely already have been done. The crossing is hemmed in by road bridges on all sides, which would require the railway to have a steeper gradient than is sensible or mean that the road bridges would need to be moved or raised.

There's 800m from the A46 overbridge, and 1200m from the A1 overbridge. Even allowing for vertical transition curves, that's plenty to get over the ECML even with clearances for electrification, especially if the peak of the viaduct is located at the mid-point between the two bridges.

 

[InTheEastMids]

There's 800m from the A46 overbridge, and 1200m from the A1 overbridge. Even allowing for vertical transition curves, that's plenty to get over the ECML even with clearances for electrification, especially if the peak of the viaduct is located at the mid-point between the two bridges.

National Highways are shortly expected to submit a DCO application to upgrade the A46 around the west of Newark and A1 junction.

Preferred Route announcement (linked below) does suggest that the scheme has been designed to accommodate any future Network Rail scheme to remove the flat crossing.

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/assets.nationalhighways.co.uk/roads/road-projects/A46+Newark+bypass/Final+BHM22_0012+A46+Newark+bypass+PRA+brochure_v2.pdf

 

[snowball]

Deleted because InTheEastMids has said what I was saying.

 

[eldomtom2]

Well, canceling much of HS2 definitely does not seem to have done much for the politician taking that decision. So politically, the strategy was a massive failure - a project gone for no political upside whatsoever.

HS2 is not a particularly major issue to most voters. Sunak is unpopular for other reasons. But it's notable that Labour so far are universally treating the idea of reinstating Phase 2 as a vote loser.

Since I don’t think UK politicians are particularly stupid, I suppose this will have been noted. Even in very tax- and economics-conscious UK, people will accept large expenditure (because from some point onwards, it becomes so abstract as to be irrelevant) if they see it as useful - so retrospectively, what really has gone wrong is not the cost, but not marketing the benefits well enough (for the North, being able to travel to London faster is economically very useful - but probably not seen as such by a population which doesn’t like its capital and the people there very much. So the focus in communication should have been elsewhere)

It would have been much easier to market the benefits if the budget hadn't ballooned, which would have led to doubts about HS2's ability to fulfil the benefits promised regardless of messaging.

I would suggest that to do something noticeable different that it would add costs and time (which adds more costs) to the point where something nearly identical would likely be highly likely.

Obviously changing plans creates costs. But that doesn't mean that every change of plan will create more costs than it saves.

 

[swt_passenger]

What would you do about Cardiff - Portsmouth trains if the West Coastway was segregated from the main line? Are you proposing they run via Botley?

…and Portsmouth to Waterloo via Eastleigh, various freight services… Waterloo to Weymouth diversions, etc etc.

I think some completely out of touch local councillors proposed a Metro on the Netley line some years ago, I suspect Network Rail had a good laugh…

 

[zwk500]

HS2 is not a particularly major issue to most voters. Sunak is unpopular for other reasons. But it's notable that Labour so far are universally treating the idea of reinstating Phase 2 as a vote loser.

HS2 is a classic example of losing control of the narrative. I think you're right that nationally it's not the most important thing, however to the people who care about it (i.e. are affected by it) it does matter a great deal.

 

[Austriantrain]

Not necessarily much faster, but possible capacity improvements:
1. A Grantham avoider starting before Stoke Tunnel to relieve the two-track section approaching Grantham.
2. Maybe a Retford avoider, if it can be shown to benefit capacity (avoiding Newark and the flat junction looks attractive, but being so close to the proposed Grantham avoider will not change much capacity-wise).
3. And quadrupling parts or all of Northallerton - Newcastle because so many traffic flows are "bundled" there.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It‘s very practical. But it doesnt release much (indeed any, at present) capacity on the ECML. Other constraints are in the way.

It would be an investment to enable a better service on the Nottingham to Lincoln line, until the other constraints could be removed or mitigated

 

[zwk500]

Not necessarily much faster, but possible capacity improvements:
1. A Grantham avoider starting before Stoke Tunnel to relieve the two-track section approaching Grantham.
2. Maybe a Retford avoider, if it can be shown to benefit capacity (avoiding Newark and the flat junction looks attractive, but being so close to the proposed Grantham avoider will not change much capacity-wise).

Why not one long Tallington-Ranksill bypass? Especially now HS2 is looking a long way off

3. And quadrupling parts or all of Northallerton - Newcastle because so many traffic flows are "bundled" there.

You'd have very limited to do an on-line 4-tracking, and Northallerton-Ferryhill is already able to send freight via Stockton so really the maximum you'd get is a dynamic loop between Durham and Chester-Le-Street which might get freight out of the way but isn't a lot of help for the passenger local/express conflicts.

 

[PTR 444]

Terminate them at Southampton.

That would be largely unpopular with the amount of through passengers on that service there currently is.

 

[eldomtom2]

HS2 is a classic example of losing control of the narrative. I think you're right that nationally it's not the most important thing, however to the people who care about it (i.e. are affected by it) it does matter a great deal.

There are limits to how much "controlling the narrative" would have made people care about HS2. Absolutely individual people may care a lot about it - but not enough people care about it for either party to consider it a vote-winner.

 

[zwk500]

There are limits to how much "controlling the narrative" would have made people care about HS2. Absolutely individual people may care a lot about it - but not enough people care about it for either party to consider it a vote-winner.

Don't ignore the impact of constituency geography. Controlling the Narrative would have importantly stopped people particularly thinking about HS2, but now that they've lost control it only needs enough people in key areas of the country to be vitally important to either party's westminster strategy.

 

[MoleStation]

On the ECML in County Durham the Aycliffe 'wobble' could be abandoned for a straight alignment from Darlington to just south of Ferryhill. Maybe that curve eased too. For years it seems the speeds have been maximised around the Aycliffe. Think it's 85mph on the southern bit?
There's just no point in it. All that slowdown passing under the A1M twice and avoiding no settlements or valleys..it could be a very fast straight run for those few miles. Add an extra slow line for freight too.

 

[Energy]

There are limits to how much "controlling the narrative" would have made people care about HS2. Absolutely individual people may care a lot about it - but not enough people care about it for either party to consider it a vote-winner.

Getting people to understand HS2 means being boring and explaining capacity on the network far more than just saying the WCML is packed.

You've got about a sentence or two before people are bored, "It's a motorway for trains so more local trains on local lines" is the best I can think of.

A bypass may be easier to get people on board with but it has fewer benefits than a new line.

 

[Austriantrain]

Why not one long Tallington-Ranksill bypass? Especially now HS2 is looking a long way off

How would that help when London - Peterborough stays very much capacity restricted?

What might be worth exploring is having 4 tracks until Grantham (hence my idea of a Grantham avoider) and maybe, if needed for timetabling, another four track section so that fasts and stoppers don’t interfere (hence the idea of a Retford bypass, but where it really should be would need to be borne out by a timetable simulation).

and Northallerton-Ferryhill is already able to send freight via Stockton

True. So make that four tracks - not necessary on the same alignment - Ferryhill to Newcastle instead of from Northallerton.

 

[eldomtom2]

Don't ignore the impact of constituency geography.

Labour and the Tories have presumably done that and found it wanting.

 

[Bald Rick]

It would be an investment to enable a better service on the Nottingham to Lincoln line, until the other constraints could be removed or mitigated

Its an awful lot of money for what could be solved by longer trains!

 

[AlastairFraser]

Its an awful lot of money for what could be solved by longer trains!

A more frequent service would be needed to take more cars off the A46, which will need more upgrades otherwise. So it's not just about the rail picture.
And the potential to increase service on the ECML after other improvements are made helps the long-term strategic case.