Highland Spring siding Blackford

[Freightmaster]

There is Immingham - Doncaster iPort for the short flows. Rather rare example though.

Only ran for a couple of weeks before being abandoned as it wasn't viable!




MARK

 

[Bald Rick]

Water and Whiskey are quite different here!

You won’t see any whiskey on trains in Scotland.

Whisky, perhaps.

 

[Wynd]

You won’t see any whiskey on trains in Scotland.

Whisky, perhaps.

If only! Perhaps in time.

I was incredibly disappointed to hear that the Aberdeen intermodal is now out of service, does anyone know why?

Although road has its advantages, most trunk roads in Scotland are either single or at best duel carriageway. There are a number of roads up here where freight really could be on rail. I can see why Highland spring want to do what they are doing.

 

[najaB]

I was incredibly disappointed to hear that the Aberdeen intermodal is now out of service, does anyone know why?

Isn't that just down to lack of crew? There's still a weekly(?) Mossend to Aberdeen Waterloo path.

 

[HSTEd]

Isn't that just down to lack of crew? There's still a weekly(?) Mossend to Aberdeen Waterloo path.

I'm not sure Paths means anything given that we have numerous freight paths that are almost never, if ever, used.

 

[kylemore]

You won’t see any whiskey on trains in Scotland.

Whisky, perhaps.

To be totally pedantic there may well be Bourbon and other American Whiskeys on containers coming to Scottish distribution centres from Southhampton etc.

 

[Bald Rick]

To be totally pedantic there may well be Bourbon and other American Whiskeys on containers coming to Scottish distribution centres from Southhampton etc.

yes fair point, I should have said ‘leaving Scotland’.

 

[Freightmaster]

Isn't that just down to lack of crew? There's still a weekly(?) Mossend to Aberdeen Waterloo path.

The Aberdeen Waterloo traffic is calcium carbonate bound for Irvine and Workington.

Aberdeen also receives regular bulk deliveries of cement from Oxwellmains too.

(both flows are operated by Colas - there are no DB/Freightliner/DRS workings to Aberdeen these days)




MARK

 

[AVK17]

I was incredibly disappointed to hear that the Aberdeen intermodal is now out of service, does anyone know why?

Isn't that just down to lack of crew?

No the traffic has been lost to rail altogether after a change of terminal operator/road haulier. It last ran in November 2021.

I have heard that GBRf will be starting an intermodal service to Aberdeen in the new year but I don’t know who the customer will be.

 

[Wynd]

Great, as if the A90 isnt hellish enough.

 

[HSTEd]

Any attempt at serious wagon-scale freight (I will not say wagonload since it would almost certainly be containers) would require a single operator with huge capital resources and a willingness to spend big to try and ameliorate the inherent staffing requirements of rail operation.

No such operator exists or is likely to exist given the current railway business model - and I'm not sure how much of the freight market share they could gain even if they did.

[I wonder if transloading a container from one train to another is more expensive or cheaper than shunting, if you had for example a proper location with straddle cranes vs an automated hump yard]

 

[zwk500]

[I wonder if transloading a container from one train to another is more expensive or cheaper than shunting, if you had for example a proper location with straddle cranes vs an automated hump yard]

With straddle cranes or a reach stacker I'd expect moving the container not the wagon would be cheaper nearly every time, unless you were breaking a long train into >10 parts at a major yard.

 

[Sonik]

With straddle cranes or a reach stacker I'd expect moving the container not the wagon would be cheaper nearly every time, unless you were breaking a long train into >10 parts at a major yard.

True, and the investment of deploying a portacabin and a couple of reach stackers to a site is buttons in the scheme of things, just as grabs are now quite frequently used for pop-up depots for aggregates/spoil.

Where a siding already exists, it's even something that could be done on a trail basis with minimal capital risk. I'd say it could possibly be viable for less than one train a week.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

True, and the investment of deploying a portacabin and a couple of reach stackers to a site is buttons in the scheme of things, just as grabs are now quite frequently used for pop-up depots for aggregates/spoil.

Where a siding already exists, it's even something that could be done on a trail basis with minimal capital risk. I'd say it could possibly be viable for less than one train a week.

It looks so simple when you put it like that. But ... ...
Containers are not just plonked down on the nearest empty bed, there various considerations, such as :
Container height v. wagon bed height (many trains are a mix of wagons of various vintages, heights, &c.).
Dangerous goods, both in the container and the train - have the separations been maintained?
Weight distribution on a given wagon.
Any of these may require boxes to be moved on the train, which blows away your time-saving very quickly.
Pat
PS I believe container handlers were going for about £½m a pop even when I was still working - some buttons!

 

[zwk500]

True, and the investment of deploying a portacabin and a couple of reach stackers to a site is buttons in the scheme of things, just as grabs are now quite frequently used for pop-up depots for aggregates/spoil.

Where a siding already exists, it's even something that could be done on a trail basis with minimal capital risk. I'd say it could possibly be viable for less than one train a week.

BIB - Having a Reach stacker or two sat around at the yard not doing anything for a fortnight isn't a great use of the assets.

 

[Sonik]

It looks so simple when you put it like that. But ... ...
Containers are not just plonked down on the nearest empty bed, there various considerations, such as :
Container height v. wagon bed height (many trains are a mix of wagons of various vintages, heights, &c.).
Dangerous goods, both in the container and the train - have the separations been maintained?
Weight distribution on a given wagon.
Any of these may require boxes to be moved on the train, which blows away your time-saving very quickly.
Pat
PS I believe container handlers were going for about £½m a pop even when I was still working - some buttons!

All agreed, but is this not all just standard logistics planning? Loading plans don't need to be made up at the actual siding; if a FOC doesn't know what wagons are in the consist then they are in the wrong business.

A reach stacker, like a grab loader, is a mobile asset. If it doesn't work out in a particular location you can just move it somewhere else. Costs are relative, and plenty of £1m+ locos spend time sitting around; reach stackers are a much more liquid asset, so they will be cheaper to finance.

BIB - Having a Reach stacker or two sat around at the yard not doing anything for a fortnight isn't a great use of the assets.

Fair point, but it's still a much lower risk to deploy than a proper yard with cranes.

 

[zwk500]

And the point being about a reach handler, like a grab loader, is it's a mobile asset. So if it doesn't work out in a particular location you can move it somewhere else.

Wouldn't something like this normally need to be loaded onto a trailer to be moved around? So yes you could take it with you if the site doesn't work, but it's not like you're going to send it to a different yard every day of the week.

Fair point, but it's still a much lower risk to deploy than a proper yard with cranes.

Well yes, but you wouldn't start putting in full gantry cranes unless you were dealing with serious levels of long-term traffic. Those setups take years to get agreements for and serious cash to install.

 

[furnessvale]

Wouldn't something like this normally need to be loaded onto a trailer to be moved around? So yes you could take it with you if the site doesn't work, but it's not like you're going to send it to a different yard every day of the week.

Well yes, but you wouldn't start putting in full gantry cranes unless you were dealing with serious levels of long-term traffic. Those setups take years to get agreements for and serious cash to install.

For small operations, a solution like this container lifter could apply.

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For larger operations, perhaps the Blatchford container handler could be resurrected.

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[Dunfanaghy Rd]

The Blatchford machine went the way of the Norwegian Blue many years ago.
Containerlift use a good piece of kit (we used them at Southampton West Docks for several years). It can be slow, and can't stack one on top of another.
Pat

 

[najaB]

The Blatchford machine went the way of the Norwegian Blue many years ago.

I don't think that @furnessvale meant the original piece of equipment as much as that a modern variant could be deployed.

 

[furnessvale]

I don't think that @furnessvale meant the original piece of equipment as much as that a modern variant could be deployed.

Correct, I was thinking concept rather than the actual machine.

Again, with containerlift, we are talking lightly used sites and the ability to quickly move the crane to another location, which role containerlift can fulfill.

 

[Sonik]

Correct, I was thinking concept rather than the actual machine.

Again, with containerlift, we are talking lightly used sites and the ability to quickly move the crane to another location, which role containerlift can fulfill.

The military shunt containers in the field using simple telescopic forklifts, is there anything stopping the same being done in a small freight yard?

It's a bit limited in productivity, but for a smaller operation with less frequent services, that perhaps wouldn't matter so much.

These machines are often road legal too, albeit a bit slow to self deploy any distance. The other possibility is to put the machine onto a special wagon on the train itself, as is done with trailers in Europe etc.

 

[zwk500]

The military shunt containers in the field using simple telescopic forklifts, is there anything stopping the same being done in a small freight yard?

I don't think they shunt 20 or 40ft containers with a forklift. Happy to be corrected though.

It's a bit limited in productivity, but for a smaller operation with less frequent services, that perhaps wouldn't matter so much.

I'd argue it probably matters more, as you have less opportunities to male profit and therefore need to be as productive as possible for each train.

These machines are often road legal too, albeit a bit slow to self deploy any distance. The other possibility is to put the machine onto a special wagon on the train itself, as is done with trailers in Europe etc.

And then we get into the economics of having a spare wagon, having a forklift driver, and the time and space needed to load it up and then unload at each yard.

 

[furnessvale]

The military shunt containers in the field using simple telescopic forklifts, is there anything stopping the same being done in a small freight yard?

It's a bit limited in productivity, but for a smaller operation with less frequent services, that perhaps wouldn't matter so much.

These machines are often road legal too, albeit a bit slow to self deploy any distance. The other possibility is to put the machine onto a special wagon on the train itself, as is done with trailers in Europe etc.

The size of forklift to handle a loaded 45ft container is beyond road legal.

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[Dunfanaghy Rd]

All the containers that I ever saw through Marchwood were 20ft. Yes, they have fork pockets in the base, with a note somewhere that they can only be used for empty boxes.
From my time I would say that the 'Head Shed' were always looking for cheaper, or more efficient (both if they could swing it).
Pat

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think its going to be possible to escape the need for significant capital investment for freight yards

Either you end up with non-road legal loading equipment or fixed-infrastructure (straddle cranes or stands for Lohr UIC wagons or whatever) stuck at these sites long term.

Indeed the lowest capital cost solution is probably just use soft-sided (or side-opening) containers/swap bodies and load them from a siding with forklifts whilst they are already on wagons - but that raises all sorts of other cost problems. The demmurage on the wagons will be ruinously expensive, as will all the shunting operations required to get them in and out of the siding.

 

[furnessvale]

I don't think its going to be possible to escape the need for significant capital investment for freight yards

Either you end up with non-road legal loading equipment or fixed-infrastructure (straddle cranes or stands for Lohr UIC wagons or whatever) stuck at these sites long term.

Indeed the lowest capital cost solution is probably just use soft-sided (or side-opening) containers/swap bodies and load them from a siding with forklifts whilst they are already on wagons - but that raises all sorts of other cost problems. The demmurage on the wagons will be ruinously expensive, as will all the shunting operations required to get them in and out of the siding.

Years ago I did some costings and timings on loading containers onto wagons at low throughput sidings versus directly loading conventional wagons using pallets.

Using a forklift and pallets can be surprisingly effective, especially if, as you suggest, the loading is to a curtain side swap body for lifting at the other end at a larger throughput depot.

Whether such traffics can be identified I leave to others.

 

[Wynd]

Years ago I did some costings and timings on loading containers onto wagons at low throughput sidings versus directly loading conventional wagons using pallets.

Using a forklift and pallets can be surprisingly effective, especially if, as you suggest, the loading is to a curtain side swap body for lifting at the other end at a larger throughput depot.

Whether such traffics can be identified I leave to others.

There is plenty more Freight than just highland spring. Getting it on to rail, including pallet loads, is a challenge, but one worth pursuing.

 

[Bald Rick]

Years ago I did some costings and timings on loading containers onto wagons at low throughput sidings versus directly loading conventional wagons using pallets.

Using a forklift and pallets can be surprisingly effective, especially if, as you suggest, the loading is to a curtain side swap body for lifting at the other end at a larger throughput depot.

Whether such traffics can be identified I leave to others.

Pallets is certainly how the Evian is loaded on to Cargo wagons for the trip to Daventry every day.

 

[fgwrich]

Well, it's certainly not as mothballed as some people may think it is. Photos on Facebook this week showing training of staff to lift and move boxes with the Craine continuing. The suggestion is that traffic will resume during mid December, once the RHTT season is completed.