Historical Sleeper Routes

[pitdiver]

I have been having a discussion with a friend of mine who says he travelled all the way to Mallaig on the Sleeper. Has this ever been the case or has it only ever run to Fort William or occasionally to Oban

 

[Hadrian]

I travelled from Kings Cross to Mallaig without changing train in the autumn of 1970. I dont think any vehicle did the entire journey. The vehicles to Mallaig started from Glasgow Queen Street. The sleepers from Kings Cross were detached at Fort William. So whether you consider that to be 'travelling all the way to Mallaig on the sleeper' is a subtle matter of definition.
Incidentally, the restaurant car serving dinner from Kings Cross was detached at York (I think). Another restaurant car was included in the vehicles attached at Glasgow Queen Street to serve breakfast, lunch, tea and dinner during its round trip to Mallaig and back to Glasgow. Oh happy days.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I travelled from Kings Cross to Mallaig without changing train in the autumn of 1970. I dont think any vehicle did the entire journey. The vehicles to Mallaig started from Glasgow Queen Street. The sleepers from Kings Cross were detached at Fort William. So whether you consider that to be 'travelling all the way to Mallaig on the sleeper' is a subtle matter of definition.
Incidentally, the restaurant car serving dinner from Kings Cross was detached at York (I think). Another restaurant car was included in the vehicles attached at Glasgow Queen Street to serve breakfast, lunch, tea and dinner during its round trip to Mallaig and back to Glasgow. Oh happy days.

Although not advertised as such in the 70s there was a through coach from Edinburgh to Mallaig, a BSK, attached to the Kings X portion in Edinburgh then forming part of the Mallaig portion forward from Queen St.

Happy days indeed!

 

[Snapper37]

Memory might be playing tricks, but I remember being in a sleeper at Ft William being shunted onto a rake of mk2’s arrived from Malaig by the resident 20, the 37/4 then running onto the top of the train and then departing to Euston. Don’t know how far the MK2’s went.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Memory might be playing tricks, but I remember being in a sleeper at Ft William being shunted onto a rake of mk2’s arrived from Malaig by the resident 20, the 37/4 then running onto the top of the train and then departing to Euston. Don’t know how far the MK2’s went.

The Mk2s would have gone to Glasgow although ScR Marshalling books from late 70's & early 80's (up to 1983) confirm my memory the Euston portion was rear ex Fort William with the Mallaig to Glasgow section attached to the front at FW (potentially by the class 20) with the Euston portion then detached at Cowlairs, although it may have been different in later years.

 

[xotGD]

Memory might be playing tricks, but I remember being in a sleeper at Ft William being shunted onto a rake of mk2’s arrived from Malaig by the resident 20, the 37/4 then running onto the top of the train and then departing to Euston. Don’t know how far the MK2’s went.

When I did it in the 80s, the 20 shunted the Euston sleeper portion onto the front of the stock that had arrived from Mallaig. We were arriving on the train from Mallaig, so had to make a quick cross-platform dash to get the 20 in the book!

 

[Mollington St]

Late 1960s British Railways Sleeper Services Handbill

Please see the front Cover and the Scotland Services Page i have scanned hope that helps and maybe adds to your question

Book the Date - June 24th 2023 for the North West Rail and Transport Collectors Fair - Crewe

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Late 1960s British Railways Sleeper Services Handbill

Please see the front Cover and the Scotland Services Page i have scanned hope that helps and maybe adds to your question

Book the Date - June 24th 2023 for the North West Rail and Transport Collectors Fair - Crewe

On that list Dumfries, Dundee, Kilmarnock Motherwell, Paisley and Stirling were intermediate calls on Sleepers originating in Glasgow Aberdeen and Perth rather than originating points for sleeping cars in their own right. Strangely Stranraer is not on the list (which would also have called at Dumfries).

 

[Mollington St]

Here is the Map of Services from the 1979/80 Handbill

 

[D6130]

On that list Dumfries, Dundee, Kilmarnock Motherwell, Paisley and Stirling were intermediate calls on Sleepers originating in Glasgow Aberdeen and Perth rather than originating points for sleeping cars in their own right. Strangely Stranraer is not on the list (which would also have called at Dumfries).

Also on that list is Oban. Did it really still have a sleeping car service to and from London in the late 1960s? I can't recall it, although I was rather young at the time.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Also on that list is Oban. Did it really still have a sleeping car service to and from London in the late 1960s? I can't recall it, although I was rather young at the time.

Not late 60s but I believe it ran right up until the Callander route closed late in 1965 albeit latterly in winter just one sleeping car (no seats) at weekends only (daily in summer). It is in the 64/65 marshalling book (I have no access to 65/66 book), but I am sure it did not transfer once re-routed via Ardlui, I think I would remember that, and it is not in the summer 66 timetable which I do have.

EDIT: It is in the 65/66 LMR timetable which I have accessed on Timetable World but obviously the route closure fell during the period of this timetable. Did it continue for a few weeks after the premature closure until the planned closure date - a single SLC transferred between Stirling and Queen St (which would also need a brake vehicle), it seems unlikely? Does anyone know? An immediate transfer of any 'existing' bookings (at a quiet time of year) to go via Kings X and Crianlarich seems more likely.

Further edit: Winter 65/66 (comm. 6th September) LMR Marshalling book indicates it was planned to run only until 17th September northbound and 18th September southbound so would have ceased running before the premature closure on 26th September '65.

 

[30907]

Late 1960s British Railways Sleeper Services Handbill

Post #11 would date it to mid 60s (and it is pre corporate image too).

Post #8 queries the absence of Stranraer - perhaps there was a separate page for Northern Ireland? The Port Road would still have been open then but Newton Stewart and Castle Douglas, the only stops on the sleeper, don't appear - unsurprisingly.

 

[Andrew1395]

I was at Euston in the 1980s. Up sleeper from Holyhead. There was a Barrow/Preston for all the boffins going to the war factories. Stranraer of course, as well as the more numerous range of services (2 trains each) terminating at Glasgow, Edinburgh, Inverness, Aberdeen and a fort William. Also the 23.30 with sleepers to Liverpool and Manchester.

 

[AY1975]

I was at Euston in the 1980s. Up sleeper from Holyhead. There was a Barrow/Preston for all the boffins going to the war factories. Stranraer of course, as well as the more numerous range of services (2 trains each) terminating at Glasgow, Edinburgh, Inverness, Aberdeen and a fort William. Also the 23.30 with sleepers to Liverpool and Manchester.

I believe that there was also a Perth terminator until some time in the '80s (I think it may have finished when the last Mark 1 sleepers were withdrawn). My dad used it a few times when attending conferences at Gleneagles, where it arrived at about 07.00ish, a much more civilised time than around 05.00-05.30 on the Inverness.

 

[D6130]

I believe that there was also a Perth terminator until some time in the '80s (I think it may have finished when the last Mark 1 sleepers were withdrawn).

Yes, 22 35 from Euston. I frequently used it - usually 'on the cushions' - returning from London on a Sunday night when I was living in Glasgow and going out with a girl who lived in North-West London (1980-82). Depending on how the train was running, I would either alight at Motherwell and take an EMU to Hyndland or - more frequently - alight at Coatbridge Central for the short walk round to Sunnyside, which gave me a couple of miles of diesel loco haulage from Mossend. On one memorable occasion, I was kept awake for most of the night by a very inebriated lady who insisted on invading my (non-smoking) compartment and then smoking/drinking/talking/shouting/singing all night. I eventually fell asleep after she fell out of the train at Carlisle and awoke several minutes after the train had arrived in Perth.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Yes, 22 35 from Euston. I frequently used it - usually 'on the cushions' - returning from London on a Sunday night when I was living in Glasgow and going out with a girl who lived in North-West London (1980-82). Depending on how the train was running, I would either alight at Motherwell and take an EMU to Hyndland or - more frequently - alight at Coatbridge Central for the short walk round to Sunnyside, which gave me a couple of miles of diesel loco haulage from Mossend. On one memorable occasion, I was kept awake for most of the night by a very inebriated lady who insisted on invading my (non-smoking) compartment and then smoking/drinking/talking/shouting/singing all night. I eventually fell asleep after she fell out of the train at Carlisle and awoke several minutes after the train had arrived in Perth.

oops,

Back in the day the Perth train also conveyed the portion for Oban, detached at Stirling, referenced in posts 10 & 11.

 

[pitdiver]

During a conversation with my neighbour she informs me that when she was younger she can remember travelling from Chesterfield to Paignton by either a Sleeper or an overnight seat service. This would have been in the 60s. Could tis have been possible?

 

[Iskra]

During a conversation with my neighbour she informs me that when she was younger she can remember travelling from Chesterfield to Paignton by either a Sleeper or an overnight seat service. This would have been in the 60s. Could tis have been possible?

Yes, I believe so. I’m sure someone more knowledgeable will be able to confirm soon.

- - - -

This got me thinking of a separate, related question; were there ever any seasonal-only sleeper services?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

During a conversation with my neighbour she informs me that when she was younger she can remember travelling from Chesterfield to Paignton by either a Sleeper or an overnight seat service. This would have been in the 60s. Could tis have been possible?

I think a summer holiday overnight seated train would be more likely - the same set would go out Friday night and back Saturday daytime.

Sleepers passing through or calling at Chesterfield would be those to/from St Pancras and the Newcastle/Bristol - potentially travelling on the latter and changing at Bristol but I think a direct seated train seems more likely, stretched out across a compartment seat might have seemed like a sleeper to a youngster.

 

[Gloster]

During a conversation with my neighbour she informs me that when she was younger she can remember travelling from Chesterfield to Paignton by either a Sleeper or an overnight seat service. This would have been in the 60s. Could tis have been possible?

Up into the 1980s there were a number of overnight trains on Friday into Saturday nights from ‘north of Birmingham’ to Devon and Cornwall, particularly Paignton and Newquay. They used to arrive at their destinations fairly early in the morning, after which the coaches were cleaned and watered and used for a northbound working. North of Exeter the Friday to Saturday night shift was busier than the rest of the week’s night shifts. The coaches were all Mark 1 seated ones.

 

[Rescars]

Does anyone remember the KX - Leeds sleepers? It was 1983 when I accompanied my boss on this service who had a speaking engagement in Harrogate. IIRC the train reached Leeds around 04.30, but you didn't have to vacate your berth until 07.00 or thereabouts. Consequently a peaceful few hours of sleep! Others with timetables may be able to be more precise.

 

[AY1975]

Does anyone remember the KX - Leeds sleepers? It was 1983 when I accompanied my boss on this service who had a speaking engagement in Harrogate. IIRC the train reached Leeds around 04.30, but you didn't have to vacate your berth until 07.00 or thereabouts. Consequently a peaceful few hours of sleep! Others with timetables may be able to be more precise.

As I recall the Leeds sleeper was a portion of the Newcastle via the Durham Coast service, which I think finished in about 1983 and was the last Mark 1 sleeper service on the East Coast Main Line.

This thread on Anglo-Scottish sleeper services in 1960/61 may also be of interest: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/anglo-scottish-sleeper-trains-1961-europebyrail-article.249652/

 

[John Palmer]

The sleeping car(s) ex-Kings Cross ran through to Mallaig only during the currency of the summer timetable for 1901, the year in which the Extension to Mallaig was opened. Thereafter they ran only as far as Fort William. Sources: John Thomas' 'The West Higland Railway' and John McGregor's 'All stations to Mallaig!'

 

[Vespa]

I remembered travelling on the Liverpool to London sleeper in the 90s if I recall it was a £10 supplement on top of my ticket.

I clearly remember the driver putting the brakes on sharply to wake us up at Euston.

 

[Gloster]

In the 1982-1983 public timetable the northbound Leeds sleeper is shown as running until 4 October; it included a seating portion that continued to Bradford Exchange. The train started at 01.00, except on Saturday night into Sunday when it started late on Saturday.

Southbound the Leeds coaches attached to the Edinburgh-King’s Cross seated train at Doncaster; on Sundays this included sleepers from Newcastle. Both Leeds and Newcastle sleepers ceased on 3 October.

The King’s Cross-Newcastle via Sunderland sleepers seem to already have ceased.

 

[Iskra]

The sleeping car(s) ex-Kings Cross ran through to Mallaig only during the currency of the summer timetable for 1901, the year in which the Extension to Mallaig was opened. Thereafter they ran only as far as Fort William. Sources: John Thomas' 'The West Higland Railway' and John McGregor's 'All stations to Mallaig!'

However, the same train did continue on to Mallaig and return minus the sleeping cars so it was possible to continue to and from Mallaig on the same train although the sleeper carriages were not attached for that part of the journey- I’m aware of this practice occurring in the 60’s at least.

 

[John Palmer]

However, the same train did continue on to Mallaig and return minus the sleeping cars so it was possible to continue to and from Mallaig on the same train although the sleeper carriages were not attached for that part of the journey- I’m aware of this practice occurring in the 60’s at least.

Oh yes, quite agree. In effect the train was for its passage over the West Highland a combination of the early morning Glasgow-Mallaig (c 5.45 off Queen Street?) and the London-Fort William sleeper portion, the union being effected at the top of Cowlairs Incline.

Pre-war (1937 or thereabouts) the Fort William sleeper portion comprised three carriages detached, with Glasgow-bound van, from the 'Highlandman' at Waverley. Robert Barnard Way's 'Famous British Trains' refers to the Glasgow-Mallaig including a 'Breakfast Car' in its formation; before that arrangement was instituted you probably arranged for a breakfast hamper to meet you at Crianlarich. Then on up to the Moor behind two 'Glens' spelling each other, or more likely a 'Loch' (K2) taking the place of one of them by 1937. Oh for a time travel machine...

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Oh yes, quite agree. In effect the train was for its passage over the West Highland a combination of the early morning Glasgow-Mallaig (c 5.45 off Queen Street?) and the London-Fort William sleeper portion, the union being effected at the top of Cowlairs Incline.

I have never previously seen any reference to the train being combined at Cowlairs. This would involve time consuming shunting as the portion from Kings Cross was marshalled between the Queen St to Fort William parcels van (BGZ or later PMV) which, at least in the 50s, 60's and 70s, was marshalled next to the loco, and the Glasgow to Mallaig portion which was on the rear.

It was of course possible to travel from Kings X etc. to Mallaig by changing within the train en route before the sleepers and seated coach from London were detached at Fort William.

During the summer months in the 60's and on Saturday mornings in the 70's the KX to FW portion ran independently throughout from Edinburgh to Fort William whilst in the winter months (and summer SX in the 70s) normal practice was, as reflected in Marshalling books of that era, for the KX to FW portion to run from Edinburgh into Queen St and then attach to the then 05.45 and later 06.00 departure with the parcels van next to the loco and the Mallaig coaches on the rear.

There were occasions such as summer Saturdays when the southbound KX portion was detached at Cowlairs after the train had called at Queen St Low Level (due to being to long for High Level), and in later years the once the service had transferred to Euston it became the practice to detach that portion was at Cowlairs although northbound it continued to run via Queen St (High Level).

 

[Rescars]

As I recall the Leeds sleeper was a portion of the Newcastle via the Durham Coast service, which I think finished in about 1983 and was the last Mark 1 sleeper service on the East Coast Main Line.

This thread on Anglo-Scottish sleeper services in 1960/61 may also be of interest: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/anglo-scottish-sleeper-trains-1961-europebyrail-article.249652/

It certainly was a Mark 1 - and the last time I travelled in one. IIRC the service ended with the introduction of the winter timetable in 1983, a couple of months or so after my trip.

 

[DerekC]

I travelled on the Newcastle sleeper several times, boarding at Darlington and going to Kings Cross. I had a contract in Dover to work on and it was a good way of getting there reasonably early in the morning. There were two cars berthed in a bay platform at Darlington and you could board from 22:00 onward, if I remember. You just got nicely to sleep when the rest of the train arrived at about midnight and the shunting moves jolted you awake. Then a repeat performance at Doncaster - presumably with the Leeds portion. I recall on one trip looking out of the window because the train seemed to be stopped a long time and read "Lincoln" on the platform sign.