History of services from Euston to Manchester - routings

[Class800]

Good morning. I just travelled back to London from Manchester last night and the train I took 19.55 went via Wilmslow and Crewe. Some 20 years ago, I was on a train that did this, although this was having been reversed back from Macclesfield, brought back into Piccadilly for restocking of catering, and a second reversal at Piccadilly. This was due to an emergency in the Congleton area. Not a normal service. I'm aware that historically there were services also from Marlyebone to Manchester, but let's focus on the Euston ones. As far as I'm aware, London to Manchester via Crewe has always been a permitted route (at least as far back as the concept existed).

Yet I'm wondering whether there were ever actually any direct trains from Euston to Manchester via Crewe (except if there was a diversion for any reason) let's say in the 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010s, or whether this is a rather recent addition to the services?

The Crewe route didn't seem any slower than the usual Stoke route.

 

[jfollows]

There have been approximately one in three services going via Crewe between Euston and Manchester since the 1970s (the 1974 timetable recast), and before then regular services also. The fastest trains tended to avoid Stockport by using the Styal line as well - including before electrification. The Macclesfield line wasn't electrified at the start of electric services from Euston in 1966, but was done a year or so later. Crewe has always been a "permitted route" even before this was formally codified. It's not any slower (EDIT I think Colwich-Hixon-Stoke-Cheadle Hulme is marginally quicker than Colwich-Stafford-Crewe-Cheadle Hulme, but we're talking a minute or two only, I posted some calculations here once, https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ss-a-major-station.232356/page-4#post-5683633, 1 minute was my conclusion.); Colwich-Cheadle Hulme used to be 85mph versus 100mph most of the route via Crewe, and speeds have increased on both routes since then with the Crewe route being faster still.

There were direct services via Crewe in all the periods you mention. At the start of the Pendolino services there were two trains an hour, both via Stoke, so Crewe had an occasional service at that time, but with the introduction of the 3 trains an hour service one of them goes via Crewe as you note.

I've clearly got a personal interest: I lived on the Macclesfield line 1961 to 1980 and used the trains daily from 1970, then in Manchester 1996 to 2008, and now on the Wilmslow line since 2008. I have lots of old timetables if you have specific questions.

EDIT PS The Styal line avoiding Stockport is still used today, but as a diversionary route. In order to allow drivers to retain familiarity with it, one train a day is booked to use it, currently 9R20 06:03 Manchester-Euston, which is definitely not a fast train because it goes via Birmingham as well, arriving into London at 09:06.

 

[TheSmiths82]

There have been approximately one in three services going via Crewe between Euston and Manchester since the 1970s (the 1974 timetable recast), and before then regular services also. The fastest trains tended to avoid Stockport by using the Styal line as well - including before electrification. The Macclesfield line wasn't electrified at the start of electric services from Euston in 1966, but was done a year or so later. Crewe has always been a "permitted route" even before this was formally codified. It's not any slower (EDIT I think Colwich-Hixon-Stoke-Cheadle Hulme is marginally quicker than Colwich-Stafford-Crewe-Cheadle Hulme, but we're talking a minute or two only, I posted some calculations here once, https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ss-a-major-station.232356/page-4#post-5683633, 1 minute was my conclusion.); Colwich-Cheadle Hulme used to be 85mph versus 100mph most of the route via Crewe, and speeds have increased on both routes since then with the Crewe route being faster still.

There were direct services via Crewe in all the periods you mention. At the start of the Pendolino services there were two trains an hour, both via Stoke, so Crewe had an occasional service at that time, but with the introduction of the 3 trains an hour service one of them goes via Crewe as you note.

I've clearly got a personal interest: I lived on the Macclesfield line 1961 to 1980 and used the trains daily from 1970, then in Manchester 1996 to 2008, and now on the Wilmslow line since 2008. I have lots of old timetables if you have specific questions.

EDIT PS The Styal line avoiding Stockport is still used today, but as a diversionary route. In order to allow drivers to retain familiarity with it, one train a day is booked to use it, currently 9R20 06:03 Manchester-Euston, which is definitely not a fast train because it goes via Birmingham as well, arriving into London at 09:06.

That is very interesting, I had no idea that there was a direct London train that didn't stop at Stockport!.

 

[jfollows]

That is very interesting, I had no idea that there was a direct London train that didn't stop at Stockport!.

Until the recent timetable recast (Manchester-London slowed down with additional stops) the regular working used to be the 19:40 Euston-Manchester. It caught out one of my colleagues at the time who lived in Sale and drove to Stockport, because he assumed that all Manchester trains from London called at Stockport also.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The LNWR had an agreement with the North Staffordshire Railway to operate joint services to Euston via Stoke.
There were always trains on both routes after that, with some being combined Manchester/Liverpool services split/joined at Crewe.
I think the sleeper was the last of those combined services.
Stoke services also could be routed via Hixon or Norton Bridge - for some time the Hixon route (Colwich-Stone) was largely unused.

The Crewe route suffered from subsidence problems between Sandbach and Crewe for several decades under BR, with 20mph speed restrictions.
This was why the Stoke route became the principle one after electrification of the North Staffs route.
Recent upgrades have eliminated the subsidence problem, and the North Staffs route has also been upgraded to offer 125mph in places (the Wilmslow route is still 110mph, with no EPS speeds).
In the VHF timetable, the Wilmslow service became hourly in order to serve Crewe, allowing Liverpool and Glasgow services to omit that stop.

Going back further, Euston-Manchester was initially via Crewe, Warrington BQ and Earlestown to Manchester Liverpool Road, and then Victoria, before the Crewe-Stockport-Piccadilly (London Road) route opened.
The shortest Euston-Manchester route was via Nuneaton, Shakerstone, Burton on Trent, Uttoxeter and Leek to North Rode (Macclesfield), and was used to justify some of the intermediate construction.
I'm not sure any through trains ever operated that way, though.
All this will have had some bearing on the "permitted routes" over time, not to mention the multiple options via the West Midlands.
And HS2 is coming, to add to the mix.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Is the 07:00 Manchester to London Stockport only returning any time soon? I can't see a need for it Fridays with mass WFH (I don't think it ran Fridays even in the final pre-COVID years), or maybe even Mondays now, but Tuesday to Thursday would be good.

 

[jfollows]

Is the 07:00 Manchester to London Stockport only returning any time soon? I can't see a need for it Fridays with mass WFH (I don't think it ran Fridays even in the final pre-COVID years), or maybe even Mondays now, but Tuesday to Thursday would be good.

I suspect there is no longer a path for it.
When it was cancelled during Covid a Milton Keynes stop was added to the preceding 06:4x Manchester-Stockport-Wilmslow-Crewe-Stafford-London, which was only possible because the 07:00 fast no longer ran. The timetable has been re-jigged since then, but I'd guess it no longer retains the path, but I could be wrong.
When the 07:00 did run, it went via Stoke, and I used to use it. It also used the up main at Stoke to avoid the platform until it was removed. However even then I suspect its routing via Stoke was because of an available path rather than speed difference (compared to the route via Crewe).

 

[ac6000cw]

Going back further, Euston-Manchester was initially via Crewe, Warrington BQ and Earlestown to Manchester Liverpool Road,

...it also went via Birmingham Curzon Street, until the Rugby-Stafford route through the Trent Valley opened in 1847.

 

[Class800]

Thanks for this, in particular @jfollows . I was unaware that via Crewe was such an established route option.

 

[eastwestdivide]

I'm aware that historically there were services also from Marlyebone to Manchester

And from St Pancras!

 

[30907]

And from St Pancras!

And if you go back pre 1923 King's Cross and even Paddington (via Chester IIRC) - I don't mean the odd Paddington via Oxfords that ran in the latter years of loco hauled XCs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not to mention the Manchester-Waterloo in recent times, running via Hereford, Severn Tunnel, Bristol, Westbury and Salisbury (Wales & West).
Wasn't there also a Manchester-Waterloo Eurostar link service (HST), via the WCML and WLL, for a few years?

 

[jfollows]

Wasn't there also a Manchester-Waterloo Eurostar link service (HST), via the WCML and WLL, for a few years?

Connections from the North into Eurostar at Waterloo International

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #15 originally in this thread. Strictly, none of those were disruption but planned diversion because of engineering works (not that that changes the point of the discussion. Didn't there used to be (for a time) a HST timtabled service train from FGW land into Waterloo ...

www.railforums.co.uk

For example, 1O86 07:37 Manchester Piccadilly - London Waterloo, via Crewe

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The 'Manchester Pullman', with its dedicated stock, ran via the Styal line on the up morning / down evening services and ran non-stop Wilmslow to / from Euston.

Stockport is too important to miss these days with easy access to the M60 and large station car parks.

 

[jfollows]

The 'Manchester Pullman', with its dedicated stock, ran via the Styal line on the up morning / down evening services and ran non-stop Wilmslow to / from Euston.

Stockport is too important to miss these days with easy access to the M60 and large station car parks.

It was the down morning / up evening services which used the Styal line, for example 1A67 16:43 Piccadilly to Euston which left in parallel with 2G67 EMU to Wolverhampton which I was sometimes on. And called at Watford. 1H05 08:00 Euston to Manchester the other way, however in the 1977 timetable this was booked to pass through Stockport because 2H53 EMU Alderley Edge to Altrincham preceded it down the Styal line by 6 minutes at Wilmslow, but in other years the down Pullman was booked over the Styal line I agree.
I used 1A67 once because I knew the guard, and I boarded from the Styal line platforms at Wilmslow.

This service pattern made sense because there was always a demand for the service from Stockport to London in the morning, and return, but there weren't many people who wanted to use it to Stockport from London in the morning and return.

EDIT The stopping pattern changed over time, of course. On its introduction in 1966 the down morning service omitted Wilmslow but called at Stockport.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ation-that-no-longer-run.227427/#post-5506858 may be of interest also

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Been on a few "non standard" routings on (Sunday afternoon) direct services between Manchester Piccadilly and London Euston over the years, suspect most of these would have been diversions due to planned engineering works.

As well as the more usual direct routings, have also travelled...

via Styal line, avoiding Stockport, first stop Wilmslow.

via Alsager, between Crewe and Stoke on Trent.

via Stone, between Stoke-on-Trent and Stafford. Or, of course, the more direct line between Stoke-on-Trent and Rugeley Trent Valley, which avoids Stafford.

via Penkridge and Stetchford, between Stafford and Rugby, sometimes via Wolverhampton as well as Witton/Aston, but only on a very few occasions via Birmingham New Street rather than Witton/Aston.

via Long Buckby and Northampton between Rugby and Milton Keynes Central.

Such fun! The alternative routings usually added at least half an hour on to end-to-end journey timings.

 

[Class800]

Been on a few "non standard" routings on (Sunday afternoon) direct services between Manchester Piccadilly and London Euston over the years, suspect most of these would have been diversions due to planned engineering works.

As well as the more usual direct routings, have also travelled...

via Styal line, avoiding Stockport, first stop Wilmslow.

via Alsager, between Crewe and Stoke on Trent.

via Stone, between Stoke-on-Trent and Stafford. Or, of course, the more direct line between Stoke-on-Trent and Rugeley Trent Valley, which avoids Stafford.

via Penkridge and Stetchford, between Stafford and Rugby, sometimes via Wolverhampton as well as Witton/Aston, but only on a very few occasions via Birmingham New Street rather than Witton/Aston.

via Long Buckby and Northampton between Rugby and Milton Keynes Central.

Such fun! The alternative routings usually added at least half an hour on to end-to-end journey timings.

As I said, my weirdest ever route from Manchester to Euston (on the same train, no changes) was

Manchester Piccadilly - Stockport - Macclesfield (reverse - line blockage) - Stockport - Manchester Piccadilly (reverse - called in again to pick up more catering supplies due to long delay) - Stockport - Crewe - direct to Euston. Took 6 hours! And passed Stockport 3 times, calling once

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Not quite a scenic diversion as that, but once was on a Manchester Piccadilly -> London Euston "direct" service which had only just set off from Stafford (towards Rugeley Trent Valley) before grinding to a halt. Eventually the decision was made to reverse back to Stafford, before the train was then re-routed via Penkridge and the West Midlands and (eventually) Rugby / London Euston.

 

[jfollows]

I've done Manchester-Hadfield-Dunford Bridge-Sheffield Victoria (closed)-Nunnery Sidings (reverse and engine run-round)-Sheffield Midland-Derby-Bedford-Bletchley (engine change to AC electric)-Euston but it was a few years ago, something like 1977 or 1978 at a guess.

 

[Trackman]

Such fun! The alternative routings usually added at least half an hour on to end-to-end journey timings.

I look out for these when I have to travel on WCML at weekends especially when they are work notices, unless I am pressed for time. Ends up a bit like a rail tour, take some sarnies and few drinks and make a day of it, sod the 90+ mins delay!

 

[Merle Haggard]

//
I think the sleeper was the last of those combined services.
//

(Liverpool and Manchester to Euston)
Pedantically the up Liverpool and Manchester sleepers were only combined in the dying days of shorter-distance sleepers.
The Up sleepers were certainly separate trains in the 1960s - both called Northampton, useful for a very full day chasing steam (obviously in an SK not an SLSTP) - and day returns from the previous day were valid (apparently ).

 

[Lost property]

I'm quite intrigued by this thread given I was once a regular "commuter " from Euston-Picc albeit only on mid afternoon trains (same from Picc)...having no choice in the matter... earlier / later trains, I did, eventually, have a choice over

For me, the route was invariably Picc-Stockport-Rugeley-Rugby-Euston and reverse. However, I do recall going both ways at times via Colwich (hence my nostalgic request some time ago as to which trains go on this route today) and also various Sunday engineering works via Crewe / Northampton and, it you turned left at Rugby, the less than scenic delights of Coventry / Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

As an almost normal, I'm even more intrigued by the references to Stockport because I was always under the impression, that, in exchange for building the viaduct, the deal was, all trains would stop at Stockport. I accept this could be an urban myth of course.

 

[Djgr]

I'm quite intrigued by this thread given I was once a regular "commuter " from Euston-Picc albeit only on mid afternoon trains (same from Picc)...having no choice in the matter... earlier / later trains, I did, eventually, have a choice over

For me, the route was invariably Picc-Stockport-Rugeley-Rugby-Euston and reverse. However, I do recall going both ways at times via Colwich (hence my nostalgic request some time ago as to which trains go on this route today) and also various Sunday engineering works via Crewe / Northampton and, it you turned left at Rugby, the less than scenic delights of Coventry / Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

As an almost normal, I'm even more intrigued by the references to Stockport because I was always under the impression, that, in exchange for building the viaduct, the deal was, all trains would stop at Stockport. I accept this could be an urban myth of course.

I think it is an urban myth but there are several stations where every service appears to stop, even when you would perhaps expect a few to skip it. Huddersfield springs to mind.

 

[jfollows]

As an almost normal, I'm even more intrigued by the references to Stockport because I was always under the impression, that, in exchange for building the viaduct, the deal was, all trains would stop at Stockport. I accept this could be an urban myth of course.

It is a myth.

Most trains stop at Stockport, because it would be silly not to.

However, there have been timetabled trains which don't stop. For a while there was an hourly cross-country service which didn't stop, for example.

Whatever the basis of the myth, it is not implemented in today's reality.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

For me, the route was invariably Picc-Stockport-Rugeley-Rugby-Euston and reverse. However, I do recall going both ways at times via Colwich (hence my nostalgic request some time ago as to which trains go on this route today) and also various Sunday engineering works via Crewe / Northampton and, it you turned left at Rugby, the less than scenic delights of Coventry / Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

You may wish to revise the description of these routings as trains pass through both Colwich and Rugeley whether routed via Stoke or via Crewe. .

 

[nw1]

And if you go back pre 1923 King's Cross and even Paddington (via Chester IIRC) - I don't mean the odd Paddington via Oxfords that ran in the latter years of loco hauled XCs.

Not just latter years - these ran almost throughout the loco-hauled XC era, depending on when you define it to start (I would say May 1979 as that's when there was a significant uplift on the Reading axis through to the northwest).

 

[Bevan Price]

In the past, there have also been occasional diversions from Sandbach via Middlewich, Northwich and Altrincham - probably before Metrolink, so they could continue via Oxford Road to Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Bald Rick]

in the original WCRM “PUG2” upgrade proposals, all the extra trainsabove the hourly service via Stoke would have been routed via Crewe, to maximise the amount of 140mph running. Fairly sure one of them would have not stopped at Crewe either.

As I said, my weirdest ever route from Manchester to Euston (on the same train, no changes)

I have, quite recently, been on a Pendolino that went Picadilly, Crewe, Stoke, Stafford, Trent Valley and thence south.

 

[Lost property]

You may wish to revise the description of these routings as trains pass through both Colwich and Rugeley whether routed via Stoke or via Crewe. .

OK, as I said before, services from Picc that turned left as it were at Stone and those from Euston that turned right at Colwich.

Thanks for the replies re Stockport. Again, having heard the claim many times over the years, not always from locals, it does seem to be an urban myth, like many others, that has become enshrined as a reality

 

[jfollows]

Thanks for the replies re Stockport. Again, having heard the claim many times over the years, not always from locals, it does seem to be an urban myth, like many others, that has become enshrined as a reality

It pops up frequently, in all sorts of places, occasionally here, which implies to me there's "something" in it in terms of historical statements, agreements, documents or whatever. Maybe it's like one of these covenants you discover with a competent solicitor when you buy a house, which is exceptionally unlikely ever to be enforced, and for which you sometimes take out a cheap insurance policy.
Whatever the case, it's definitely not true these days that all trains must stop at Stockport, it's just that all or almost all of them do anyway.
In the 2018 timetable, I think, there were a number of local services which didn't, mainly because they couldn't be crammed into the timetable without eliminating some stops from the normal pattern, there was a morning service Alderley Edge to Manchester which didn't call at Stockport, for example.
It'll pop up again here in a few months I bet!

EDIT 2H99 07:29 Alderley Edge to Piccadilly in the 2020 timetable: