Holyhead electrification

[Class15]

Tfw have lots of aspirations regarding the Welsh railways, it's all very ambitious and it will be interesting seeing what is achievable over what is just an aspiration.

I see, could bi-modes be a solution?

 

[507020]

For Chester - Holyhead electrification to work, they will also have to electify Chester - Crewe/Warrington Bank Quay and Llandudno - Llandudno Junction, so is there any mention of that? I will omit reopening to Caernarfon and Llanberis and reconnecting with the Cambrian for now.

 

[craigybagel]

Electrification to Holyhead would be very difficult.

The Crewe - Chester line has numerous very low bridges. Too many for an interrupted electrification scheme to work, they'd need demolishing. It also has the very tight Christleton Tunnel - which can't raised because there's a canal over it, and can't be lowered because it's prone enough to flooding as it is.

As you go down the coast, it doesn't get much better. Lots more tunnels, the Brittania Bridge, the railway wrapping around the walls of Conwy Castle, and probably the biggest hurdle of all - the Conwy railway bridge. Putting wires or a bar through a Grade 1 listed wrought iron tube is going to make for an interesting challenge.

I'm sure none of these problems are insurmountable by any means - but they'll be very expensive. And what do you get in return? Avanti have been very slow to return their North Wales services to normal post Covid, showing how low it is on their list of priorities. TfW are keen in increase their services on the route - but almost all of them continue on to other routes that are also unlikely to be electrified.

The cost:benefits ratio for this are going to be ridiculous. It's not the low hanging fruit for electrification some make it out to be.

 

[snowball]

Electrification to Holyhead would be very difficult.

The Crewe - Chester line has numerous very low bridges. Too many for an interrupted electrification scheme to work, they'd need demolishing. It also has the very tight Christleton Tunnel - which can't raised because there's a canal over it, and can't be lowered because it's prone enough to flooding as it is.

As you go down the coast, it doesn't get much better. Lots more tunnels, the Brittania Bridge, the railway wrapping around the walls of Conwy Castle, and probably the biggest hurdle of all - the Conwy railway bridge. Putting wires or a bar through a Grade 1 listed wrought iron tube is going to make for an interesting challenge.

I'm sure none of these problems are insurmountable by any means - but they'll be very expensive. And what do you get in return? Avanti have been very slow to return their North Wales services to normal post Covid, showing how low it is on their list of priorities. TfW are keen in increase their services on the route - but almost all of them continue on to other routes that are also unlikely to be electrified.

The cost:benefits ratio for this are going to be ridiculous. It's not the low hanging fruit for electrification some make it out to be.

Some of these I can believe are difficulties, but the Britannia bridge is unlikely to be a particular problem. The road deck above the railway will undoubtedly have been designed with electrification clearance.

As for the Conwy tubular bridge, is there a published cross section with dimensions? Without seeing one I'll keep an open mind.

Conwy castle will raise heritage issues which will require sensitivity in design and public relations, but not necessarily great expense.

 

[leonard clive]

Deleted

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are plans for a third bridge at Menai, replacing the A55 road route over the rebuilt Britannia bridge with a separate dual carriageway to the east.
It might also carry power cables for Wylfa Newydd, which is back on the nuclear agenda.
None of this necessarily changes the rail route.

 

[HS2isgood]

IMHO the best solution is to just slap any diesel locomotive dragging HS2 trains.

 

[TravelDream]

The Welsh Government did not fund London-Cardiff electrification or the IEP train fleet.
The Valleys electrification (and Metro project) is being funded with a £250m grant from Westminster to Cardiff Bay.

If that's your view, then the Welsh Gov funds nothing at all as basically all of the money comes from somewhere else.

The Core Valleys project budget is about £750 million so there's a huge hole if you think £250 million from the UK Government is funding it.
In fact, it has multiple funding sources including £160 million from the EU.

 

[craigybagel]

Some of these I can believe are difficulties, but the Britannia bridge is unlikely to be a particular problem. The road deck above the railway will undoubtedly have been designed with electrification clearance.

As for the Conwy tubular bridge, is there a published cross section with dimensions? Without seeing one I'll keep an open mind.

Conwy castle will raise heritage issues which will require sensitivity in design and public relations, but not necessarily great expense.

Like I said, I figure they're all doable, just it might take some creative bespoke solutions that won't come cheap. I agree with you the height on the Brittania Bridge is almost certainly sufficient, but it's still a fairly unique structure, suspended at great height over water. A smaller problem than the issues at Conwy but surely not as straightforward as open track in the country?

 

[Bald Rick]

They somehow managed to leave Acton Wells unelectrified.

Acton Wells has been electrified for over a century!

If you mean Acton Bank, then have a look to see how many trains that use it run entirely on lines that are electrified other than that stretch.

 

[Class15]

Acton Wells has been electrified for over a century!

If you mean Acton Bank, then have a look to see how many trains that use it run entirely on lines that are electrified other than that stretch.

Ah, sorry, I meant Acton Bank. I think that the Felixstowe to Wentloog liners could then be electric from Ipswich, if the curve was electrified.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If that's your view, then the Welsh Gov funds nothing at all as basically all of the money comes from somewhere else.
The Core Valleys project budget is about £750 million so there's a huge hole if you think £250 million from the UK Government is funding it.
In fact, it has multiple funding sources including £160 million from the EU.

I never said the £250m was the sole Valleys funding, but it is a big chunk of the project.
Ultimately WG money comes from Westminster in one form or another, matching the level of devolved autonomy and things like City Region deals.
As we keep saying, rail is not wholly devolved so it's a mixed funding picture.
Then there's Barnett Consequentials and all that, which provides extra funds to Cardiff when spending commitments are made for England.
The WG does get to choose where that money is spent.

 

[59CosG95]

Electrification to Holyhead would be very difficult.

The Crewe - Chester line has numerous very low bridges. Too many for an interrupted electrification scheme to work, they'd need demolishing. It also has the very tight Christleton Tunnel - which can't raised because there's a canal over it, and can't be lowered because it's prone enough to flooding as it is.

As you go down the coast, it doesn't get much better. Lots more tunnels, the Brittania Bridge, the railway wrapping around the walls of Conwy Castle, and probably the biggest hurdle of all - the Conwy railway bridge. Putting wires or a bar through a Grade 1 listed wrought iron tube is going to make for an interesting challenge.

I'm sure none of these problems are insurmountable by any means - but they'll be very expensive. And what do you get in return? Avanti have been very slow to return their North Wales services to normal post Covid, showing how low it is on their list of priorities. TfW are keen in increase their services on the route - but almost all of them continue on to other routes that are also unlikely to be electrified.

The cost:benefits ratio for this are going to be ridiculous. It's not the low hanging fruit for electrification some make it out to be.

Well, the Valleys will undoubtedly be a litmus test for discontinuous electrification - agreed the bridges will need to go, but a battery section through Christleton Tunnel shouldn't be discounted just yet IMO.

 

[stuu]

Some of these I can believe are difficulties, but the Britannia bridge is unlikely to be a particular problem. The road deck above the railway will undoubtedly have been designed with electrification clearance.

As for the Conwy tubular bridge, is there a published cross section with dimensions? Without seeing one I'll keep an open mind.

Conwy castle will raise heritage issues which will require sensitivity in design and public relations, but not necessarily great expense.

According to this site, The tubes are 4.4m wide, and 6.9m high at the ends rising to 7.8m. So if the structure takes up a metre at the top and bottom, then that still leaves 4.9m for the trains and any wires. So should be ok, but does entirely depend on how the structures actually work, they may have cross-braces etc which go into the space. I did find a driver's view video, but it's completely black through there!

 

[59CosG95]

According to this site, The tubes are 4.4m wide, and 6.9m high at the ends rising to 7.8m. So if the structure takes up a metre at the top and bottom, then that still leaves 4.9m for the trains and any wires. So should be ok, but does entirely depend on how the structures actually work, they may have cross-braces etc which go into the space. I did find a driver's view video, but it's completely black through there!

4.9m for the trains and any wires? Looks like it'll have to be contenary through there without a doubt.
Standard electrical clearance is 600mm for stranded conductors (e.g. catenary, ATF, EW), but this can reduce to 270mm if contenary is used (as it's a hard drawn conductor).

If kept as contenary, the loading on the tubes would be reduced (compared to conductor bar) and the visual impact would be much less.

As you say though, cross-members would pipe the tune of a lot of the work, if present within the tubes.

 

[D6130]

Christleton Tunnel - which can't raised because there's a canal over it,

The twin bore Carmuirs tunnels in Scotland - which also have a canal over them - were rebuilt and raised for the Greenhill-Stirling- Dunblane-Alloa-Grahamston-Polmont electrification.

 

[snowball]

The twin bore Carmuirs tunnels in Scotland - which also have a canal over them - were rebuilt and raised for the Greenhill-Stirling- Dunblane-Alloa-Grahamston-Polmont electrification.

Wonderful how they managed to make the water go uphill.

 

[Mollman]

Like I said, I figure they're all doable, just it might take some creative bespoke solutions that won't come cheap. I agree with you the height on the Brittania Bridge is almost certainly sufficient, but it's still a fairly unique structure, suspended at great height over water. A smaller problem than the issues at Conwy but surely not as straightforward as open track in the country?

How about having the power via a rail alongside the track rather than overhead?

 

[Trainbike46]

How about having the power via a rail alongside the track rather than overhead?

building third rail completely unconnected to the existing third rail systems in the UK? I'm not sure that would make sense (or get approved by the relevant safety people!)

 

[childwallblues]

Well Bidston to Wrexham is high on the priority list of Merseytravel for conversion to battery power with Class 777s.

 

[P Binnersley]

As for the Conwy tubular bridge, is there a published cross section with dimensions? Without seeing one I'll keep an open mind.

There is a drawing of the Britannia (Menai Straits) bridge in this Network Rail video which shows the internal dimension of the tubes (3m19s) as 22 feet (6.7m) high. I would presume the Conwy bridge tubes are the same. The track bed will reduce this clearance.

 

[DimTim]

The mention of Wylfa nuclear further up the thread sparks the impression of two 25kv cables bringing the power to where it’s needed in north west England!

 

[snowball]

That reminds me that there's a 132kV substation next to the line at Mochdre, Colwyn Bay, ideally sited to be a feeder station, and with land available for expansion.

 

[507020]

There is a drawing of the Britannia (Menai Straits) bridge in this Network Rail video which shows the internal dimension of the tubes (3m19s) as 22 feet (6.7m) high. I would presume the Conwy bridge tubes are the same. The track bed will reduce this clearance.

Those tubes were destroyed by fire in 1970! The present obstacle to clearance will be the height of the road deck, although this would provide a surface to attach a wire to.

 

[snowball]

Those tubes were destroyed by fire in 1970! The present obstacle to clearance will be the height of the road deck, although this would provide a surface to attach a wire to.

His point was that the tubes of Conwy bridge may be the same dimensions. As I remarked in #34, the road deck of the Britannia bridge will have been designed with electrification clearance.

 

[507020]

His point was that the tubes of Conwy bridge may be the same dimensions. As I remarked in #34, the road deck of the Britannia bridge will have been designed with electrification clearance.

You say undoubtedly but I hope your confidence is justified. Obviously Victorian structures weren’t designed for electrification clearance though. If Chester - Holyhead is electrified but the Marches aren’t, will TfW’s Premier Mk4 service have to do a loco change at Chester? I wonder what electric loco would be suitable for hauling Mk4 coaches…

 

[Bill57p9]

building third rail completely unconnected to the existing third rail systems in the UK? I'm not sure that would make sense (or get approved by the relevant safety people!)

But it would be an extension to the existing third rail system, allowing fully electric through services on the busy Liverpool to Holyhead corridor...

 

[P Binnersley]

[....] As I remarked in #34, the road deck of the Britannia bridge will have been designed with electrification clearance.

I took a photo looking along the railway line across the bridge in 2014. Counting stone blocks, the minimum 5.03m road clearance on the road gives about 5.75m above the railhead (10 blocks on road vs ~11.5 on rail).

 

[snowball]

Furthermore it's been a requirement since at least the 1950s for new bridges over railways that may later be electrified to have suitable clearance.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The mention of Wylfa nuclear further up the thread sparks the impression of two 25kv cables bringing the power to where it’s needed in north west England!

North Wales is surprisingly well endowed with 400kV power lines.
There are two routes west from Deeside, a northerly one not far from the coast, and a southerly one via Corwen and Ffestiniog, meeting near Bangor for the run across Anglesey.
They were established for the old nuclear power stations at Trawsfynydd and Wylfa, and the pumped storage schemes in Snowdonia.
They also connect some big wind farms on the way.
There's no shortage of power feeds in North Wales!
The infrastructure also helps the business case for Wylfa Newydd.