Honest mistake, but then I lied.

[traintraintrai]

Good Morning.

I made an honest mistake on a journey from West Drayton to London. I've used West Drayton station many times, and have plenty of payment history to prove this.

I've been away for a few weeks, using other stations both in London, and further afield - again, plenty of proof.

Today, back at West Drayton, I absent mindedly walked through to the platform without swiping my card. Honestly, it was a mistake. I have months of transactions from West Drayton, I use the service and I pay for it. I was probably fiddling with my phone or something and had just forgotten about stations with no barriers.

Going through stations on the train I noticed (probably at Hayes) an oyster machine and realized what I'd done (or not done), so I got off at Ealing and swiped on the intra-station oyster machine to continue my journey via the tube, thinking this way at least I'd have a complete journey logged.

An enforcement officer approached and was instantly aggressive. Stupidly, I lied. I said I'd come from Iver on a paper ticket and had misplaced it. It was foolish, but I was trying to avoid the confrontation.

He was very aggressive, and threatened me with arrest, which I asked if he could do, he said yes and called over BTP, who said that he was wrong and that I wouldn't be arrested. This made me very angry as the enforcement officer had lied to me (lots of lies in this story) and so I stuck to my guns. Anyway, half an hour later he has my details and I'm away.

I fully expect a letter in the post, and if asked to reply I'm sure you'll advise me to go with the truth, which I have told you. So the truth it shall be.

I honestly travel from that station all the time. I have loads of receipts and online histories.

I honestly had been away for a few weeks and just kind of forgot to swipe.

This is absolutely a first offense, but...

I did lie to try and get out of it.

So, what letter can I expect? I'm happy to pay the fare, the fine, the penalty, or whatever it is that will come. Any ideas what it will be? How much can I expect to pay?

 

[cuccir]

Do you know if the officer who stopped you worked for Transport for London (TfL) or the train company?

Can you clarify if you stuck with your story throughout the conversation with the officer and the British Transport Police? This seems to be the case from what you've written.

The company involved will likely write to you and ask you to give your version of the story. You can reply apologizing at this point, and it may be appropriate to offer a financial settlement of their costs + the fare owed.

As to what you say in the letter, well that's up to you.

If you change your story at this point and say you traveled from xxx without a ticket, you will be giving the company to whom you're writing all the evidence they need to prosecute you under the Regulations of the Railways Act (RoRA), which if successful will result in a criminal record and high fine. They may decide to do this, or to ask for a higher financial settlement from you because this route is open to them.

If you write to them apologizing with your original story, and they believe it, they may still to chose to prosecute under RoRA, as there is no evidence for this fictional ticket from xxx, but without evidence that the ticket never existed, they may decide to go for an easier Bylaw prosecution, which if successful will result in low fine with no criminal record. They would likely ask for a lower financial settlement if this was their plan.

Of course if you write to them with a continued lie and they discover it to be such, say by reading a forum post in which you admit your lie or through aggressive questioning at court, then they will have plenty of evidence for a RoRA prosecution, and I imagine you'd face a very unsympathetic magistrate in this case.

Finally, the history of purchased tickets and accusations of aggressiveness do not seem relevant, unless in the case of the latter you genuinely think that there was physical threat.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Which station is nearer your home address?

 

[Antman]

Good Morning.

I made an honest mistake on a journey from West Drayton to London. I've used West Drayton station many times, and have plenty of payment history to prove this.

I've been away for a few weeks, using other stations both in London, and further afield - again, plenty of proof.

Today, back at West Drayton, I absent mindedly walked through to the platform without swiping my card. Honestly, it was a mistake. I have months of transactions from West Drayton, I use the service and I pay for it. I was probably fiddling with my phone or something and had just forgotten about stations with no barriers.

Going through stations on the train I noticed (probably at Hayes) an oyster machine and realized what I'd done (or not done), so I got off at Ealing and swiped on the intra-station oyster machine to continue my journey via the tube, thinking this way at least I'd have a complete journey logged.

An enforcement officer approached and was instantly aggressive. Stupidly, I lied. I said I'd come from Iver on a paper ticket and had misplaced it. It was foolish, but I was trying to avoid the confrontation.

He was very aggressive, and threatened me with arrest, which I asked if he could do, he said yes and called over BTP, who said that he was wrong and that I wouldn't be arrested. This made me very angry as the enforcement officer had lied to me (lots of lies in this story) and so I stuck to my guns. Anyway, half an hour later he has my details and I'm away.

I fully expect a letter in the post, and if asked to reply I'm sure you'll advise me to go with the truth, which I have told you. So the truth it shall be.

I honestly travel from that station all the time. I have loads of receipts and online histories.

I honestly had been away for a few weeks and just kind of forgot to swipe.

This is absolutely a first offense, but...

I did lie to try and get out of it.

So, what letter can I expect? I'm happy to pay the fare, the fine, the penalty, or whatever it is that will come. Any ideas what it will be? How much can I expect to pay?

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of it all I would certainly be making a complaint about the aggressive RPI and his hollow threat to have you arrested.

 

[najaB]

He was very aggressive, and threatened me with arrest, which I asked if he could do, he said yes and called over BTP, who said that he was wrong and that I wouldn't be arrested. This made me very angry as the enforcement officer had lied to me...

He didn't lie to you.

While it is very unlikely to happen, the Regulation of Railways Act says that if a passenger fails to produce a ticket, '..any officer of the company may detain him until he can conveniently be brought before some justice..."

 

[DaveNewcastle]

While it is very unlikely to happen, the Regulation of Railways Act says that if a passenger fails to produce a ticket, '..any officer of the company may detain him until he can conveniently be brought before some justice..."

It does happen.

. . . .and is entirely lawful, as you indicate. That authority has even been written into the Crossrail Act.

 

[319321]

If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses or fails on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.

You both missed out that the opportunity for the passenger to give his name and address has to be given before detention is legal.

I have been asked by an administrator to clarify the following point:

You both missed out that the opportunity for the passenger to give his name and address has to be given before detention is legal.

as apparently there is some disagreement as to how far the power to detain someone goes.

You need to consider Section 5 of the Regulation of the Railways Act 1889 (as enacted) and (as modified) rather the quote it selectively as najaB has done.

5Penalty for avoiding payment of fare

(1)Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either:
- produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or
- pay his fare from the place whence he started, or
- give the officer or servant his name and address ;
and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine.

(2)If a passenger having failed either:
- to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or
- to pay his fare,
refuses or fails, on request by an officer of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.

There is therefore a requirement that a person fails to hand over a ticket, to pay a fare and to give a name and address before the officer has the power to detain him.

This interpretation is given weight in 'The Manual' on the page 'Revenue Protection: Introduction and Legislation to Support Ticket Examiners':

Section 5(2) states, a person that has refused/failed to produce a ticket AND failed to pay for a ticket AND failed to supply a name and address (the 3 Fails) may be detained until they can be conveniently brought before some justice. The courts view any detention of a person against their will very seriously.

I cannot post the link here, but those with access can use the following appendage to access the information: '/tm_revenue_protection/1120.html'.

 

[cjmillsnun]

You both missed out that the opportunity for the passenger to give his name and address has to be given before detention is legal.

And the OP's post gave no indication as to where he was asked for details.

RPIs have to be on the aggressive side of assertive. The majority of the people they deal with aren't those who make honest mistakes, and the OP had lied to him.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

And the OP's post gave no indication as to where he was asked for details.

It sounds as if it was at Ealing Broadway, where there's a reader between the National Rail platforms and the Underground platforms. That's usually for the use of people with paper tickets to Ealing, intending onward travel by Underground.

But having forgotten to ping the Oyster at West Drayton, what should the OP have done? Presumably head for the gate line at Ealing. The local trains are OMO, so the likelihood of being able to pay on the train is minimal.

 

[najaB]

But having forgotten to ping the Oyster at West Drayton, what should the OP have done? Presumably head for the gate line at Ealing.

Either that or stay on the train and tap out at his destination, thereby paying a maximum fare and sorting it out afterwards.

The local trains are OMO, so the likelihood of being able to pay on the train is minimal.

OMO?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Either that or stay on the train and tap out at his destination, thereby paying a maximum fare and sorting it out afterwards.
OMO?

So either just leave through the barriers at Ealing and come back in again, or continue on London Underground to his ultimate destination. The context seems to indicate that he was changing to LU.

OMO = One man operated, so no guard present.

 

[bb21]

Either that or stay on the train and tap out at his destination, thereby paying a maximum fare and sorting it out afterwards.
OMO?

OMO is a bus industry term, introduced when conductors were eliminated onboard.

 

[6Gman]

It sounds as if it was at Ealing Broadway, where there's a reader between the National Rail platforms and the Underground platforms. That's usually for the use of people with paper tickets to Ealing, intending onward travel by Underground.

But having forgotten to ping the Oyster at West Drayton, what should the OP have done? Presumably head for the gate line at Ealing. The local trains are OMO, so the likelihood of being able to pay on the train is minimal.

How about approaching a member of staff, explaining what had happened, apologising and asking what to do next?

 

[cjmillsnun]

It sounds as if it was at Ealing Broadway, where there's a reader between the National Rail platforms and the Underground platforms. That's usually for the use of people with paper tickets to Ealing, intending onward travel by Underground.

But having forgotten to ping the Oyster at West Drayton, what should the OP have done? Presumably head for the gate line at Ealing. The local trains are OMO, so the likelihood of being able to pay on the train is minimal.

Sorry, I meant WHEN, as in before or after the threat of arrest.

 

[island]

OMO is a bus industry term, introduced when conductors were eliminated onboard.

Indeed – DOO (driver only operation) is the more usual term here.
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Regardless of the rights and wrongs of it all I would certainly be making a complaint about the aggressive RPI and his hollow threat to have you arrested.

"Aggressive" is in the eye of the beholder and I strongly suspect that an impartial onlooker would have classified the Authorised Collector in question as assertive/straight-up. Many criminals will describe those in authority as aggressive when they were merely telling them something they did not wish to hear.