Hope Valley: best use of capacity

[Purple Orange]

Yep, this. Proper long trains before any frequency increases. Because of HS2 and NPR, 200m needs to become the standard length.

200m may be the standard length on HS2, but will that be right for the Hope Valley? A 200m train is 8x25m carriages, but I suspect 6-car services will be the standard on that line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

200m may be the standard length on HS2, but will that be right for the Hope Valley? A 200m train is 8x25m carriages, but I suspect 6-car services will be the standard on that line.

7x26 (182m) is the way I would go for the TPE 80x, certainly (25m vehicles would require new stock). But 200 would be a sensible standard minimum platform length to work to other than for self contained operations like branches and Merseyrail. Might as well work to the long term.

 

[Killingworth]

No EMR at all today. 6 coach TPE and 3 coach Northern's will be rammed, although it's lashing down with rain here in the Hope,Valley so not many walkers on the trains.

5 car Nova 3s start in May for TPE.

 

[Dr Hoo]

A very significant length constraint is Sheffield. Without going into a long explanation, there has to be a lot of platform sharing in normal timetables. Matters have got tighter since the Hope Valley local went over to having a lot of three and four-car workings that won't fit in Platform 2C. The only other south-facing bay is 7 and that can only take five cars. That is often also used by EMR Norwich-Liverpool and St Pancras-Sheffield workings.

A lot of stations along the EMR route have relatively short platforms. In the Hope Valley itself (where the 'first and last' EMR services call the platforms have only recently been standardised at four cars.

 

[tbtc]

Two hundred meter trains sounds nice for Sheffield - Manchester (certainly a much easier way of dealing with busy trains than spending hundreds of millions of pounds on a route through Bakewell to take a handful of East Midlands - Lancashire people off the current route through Sheffield!)

But the six coach 185s are already fouling Meadowhall and half the stations east of Doncaster, so I don't know how much longer you'd want trains before a decision is taken to abandon the through service to Cleethorpes (which certainly doesn't need eight coaches, unless it's a warm/dry Bank Holiday Monday)

There's also the problem that, whilst an eight coach train would be great for city-to-city journeys, and provides plenty more seats, it limits the scope for those services to stop at the "local" stations, which means the much shorter local trains have to pick up more of the strain

I suppose that my answer really depends on whether we are ever going to get more than two semi-fast services per hour from Sheffield to Manchester - if we are limited to that number then, sure, let's go for trains that are as long as possible, even if it means losing the through trains for Doncaster etc, but it's a trade off

 

[yorksrob]

Two hundred meter trains sounds nice for Sheffield - Manchester (certainly a much easier way of dealing with busy trains than spending hundreds of millions of pounds on a route through Bakewell to take a handful of East Midlands - Lancashire people off the current route through Sheffield!)

But the six coach 185s are already fouling Meadowhall and half the stations east of Doncaster, so I don't know how much longer you'd want trains before a decision is taken to abandon the through service to Cleethorpes (which certainly doesn't need eight coaches, unless it's a warm/dry Bank Holiday Monday)

There's also the problem that, whilst an eight coach train would be great for city-to-city journeys, and provides plenty more seats, it limits the scope for those services to stop at the "local" stations, which means the much shorter local trains have to pick up more of the strain

I suppose that my answer really depends on whether we are ever going to get more than two semi-fast services per hour from Sheffield to Manchester - if we are limited to that number then, sure, let's go for trains that are as long as possible, even if it means losing the through trains for Doncaster etc, but it's a trade off

If you were going to go down that route, wouldn't it make sense to allow the "as long as possible" trains to go as far as Doncaster, given its position as a transport hub.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you were going to go down that route, wouldn't it make sense to allow the "as long as possible" trains to go as far as Doncaster, given its position as a transport hub.

Or you portion work with two 100m trains, I suppose, only running 200m between Liverpool and Sheffield.

Triple 185s are 207m, interestingly. I wonder if you were allowed both cabs off you could fit those in a 200m platform?

 

[yorksrob]

Or you portion work with two 100m trains, I suppose, only running 200m between Liverpool and Sheffield.

Triple 185s are 207m, interestingly. I wonder if you were allowed both cabs off you could fit those in a 200m platform?

Yes, portion working might solve the problem.

 

[Purple Orange]

7x26 (182m) is the way I would go for the TPE 80x, certainly (25m vehicles would require new stock). But 200 would be a sensible standard minimum platform length to work to other than for self contained operations like branches and Merseyrail. Might as well work to the long term.

That would be fine on the north trans pennine & NPR route, but the south trans pennine will be running through castlefield and I don’t see that being an 802 job.

 

[HSTEd]

There's also the problem that, whilst an eight coach train would be great for city-to-city journeys, and provides plenty more seats, it limits the scope for those services to stop at the "local" stations, which means the much shorter local trains have to pick up more of the strain

In a world with computer controlled SDO, does this necessarily hold?

 

[tbtc]

If you were going to go down that route, wouldn't it make sense to allow the "as long as possible" trains to go as far as Doncaster, given its position as a transport hub.

Sounds good, and it'd mean one fewer conflicting path over the flat ECML at Donny, but then that'd mean losing the through trains from Manchester/ Sheffield/ Meadowhall to Scunthorpe/ Grimsby/ Cleethorpes, so there are compromises to make

Splitting at Sheffield would mean occupying one of the through platforms for some time, which is complicated by 1 being needed for Northern services to access the fuelling sidings and not all of the others are bi-directional... tricky

(I also don't know what the platform lengths are like from Manchester to Liverpool, since the last times I've done that was only on a two coach 158 so wasn't an issue - but there's more need for the "semi-fasts" on that route to pick up some "local" stops with the plans for stations west of Warrington to lose their stopper to Manchester and the stations east of Warrington obviously going down to a reduced service as a result of the Castlefield changes)

In a world with computer controlled SDO, does this necessarily hold?

It's less of an issue but a 200m train could be fouling signals/junctions or causing delays when people are caught out and dashing down the train to a carriage with an open door

 

[D365]

Is six car operation really not enough for South Transpennine?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is six car operation really not enough for South Transpennine?

It might be for now, but if we are serious about reducing car journeys it won't be for long.

 

[D365]

It might be for now, but if we are serious about reducing car journeys it won't be for long.

If the capacity is there post-Dore, I’d say bumping TPE up to 2tph would be far more beneficial.

 

[Greybeard33]

(I also don't know what the platform lengths are like from Manchester to Liverpool, since the last times I've done that was only on a two coach 158 so wasn't an issue - but there's more need for the "semi-fasts" on that route to pick up some "local" stops with the plans for stations west of Warrington to lose their stopper to Manchester and the stations east of Warrington obviously going down to a reduced service as a result of the Castlefield changes)

Liverpool S Parkway platforms are only 123m (P1) and 137m (P2). Widnes only 103m. Warrington Central 123m and 126m. Birchwood 170m. Irlam 122m. Urmston 147m.

5 car Nova 3s start in May for TPE.

The 5-car Nova 3 sets have 257 standard class seats, versus 334 in a 6-car double 185. So a capacity downgrade.

 

[Killingworth]

If the capacity is there post-Dore, I’d say bumping TPE up to 2tph would be far more beneficial.

As things stand at present it would be a big improvement if TPE were handed the Liverpool - Nottingham and used their 6 coach 185 or Nova 3s. EMR have been providing an appalling service over the last 2 years and Covid can't be blamed for most of that.

3 or 4 years ago EMT turned out 4 coach 158s and offered the best option compared with 3 car TPE 185s or Northern Pacers. Not any more. Comparing 2 car and oftrn cancelled EMR 158s with 6 car 185s and 3 car 195s isn't a fair contest.

Extend the Piccadilly - New Mills stopper to Sheffield at 4 car, limited stops, 2 from Chinley, Edale, Hope and Dore to avoid freight paths with 2, 3 or 4 car stoppers as now. No further platform extensions required.

That should provide enough passenger capacity over the core section for the next 5-10 years at least. Combining 2 longer distance fast services with 2 shorter dstance slower services should offer better options for the growing leisure market between the two cities.

The 5-car Nova 3 sets have 257 standard class seats, versus 334 in a 6-car double 185. So a capacity downgrade.

Nova 3 has 261 standard and 30 first seats. A double 185 has 312 standard and 30 first class seats. Total 291 in the Nova, 342 in double 185.

A capacity downgrade at present but 6 carriages are rarely being fully used. When they are it's probably because a previous TPE or EMR has been absent. Getting all to run to time would be immensely helpful all round.