Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[Killingworth]

It won't matter for South Bound trains. They've decided to put tunnel controls in Bradway Tunnel that will prevent trains getting a Single Yellow at Dore South, and will instead have to wait for a Double Yellow. It's going to make it very hard to get a freight out at Dore South now, on to the Up Main. Harder than it is now. Because anything following, has to wait for a double yellow. Bonkers, all because of a 'new standard'.

Time will soon tell but currently freight trains waiting at Dore West too often block all following down the Hope Valley. If allowed to proceed onto the MML to clear that block they're liable to block services there in both directions too.

As an example this one this morning; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H11261/2023-11-15/detailed

The ability for it to have effectively 'hidden' once it left Chinley East are currently zero until Chesterfield. Once the current scheme is complete there are options at Bamford and Dore. That should provide more pathing possibilties, subject of course to the reality of extra time taken to enter and leave any loops. Living very close to the Dore chord I can often hear how long it takes to grind round the tight uphill climb into Bradway tunnel to go south.

That one late starting train delayed 3 passenger services on the Hope Valley line this morning plus any services on the MML - and any knock on delays they caused.

All operators are dependent on the others and very obviously once one is delayed all paths come under threat. Hopefully once experience is gained with the new set up all can benefit.

 

[Tomnick]

It won't matter for South Bound trains. They've decided to put tunnel controls in Bradway Tunnel that will prevent trains getting a Single Yellow at Dore South, and will instead have to wait for a Double Yellow. It's going to make it very hard to get a freight out at Dore South now, on to the Up Main. Harder than it is now. Because anything following, has to wait for a double yellow. Bonkers, all because of a 'new standard'.

You can't get a single yellow onto the Up Main at Dore South now? The next signal, in Bradway Tunnel, is a distant signal.

 

[GardenRail]

You can't get a single yellow onto the Up Main at Dore South now? The next signal, in Bradway Tunnel, is a distant signal.

Sorry, Green.

 

[Tomnick]

Sorry, Green.

Makes more sense, thanks. Well, it clarifies it at least. How bizarre. Will that apply too if you're coming from Sheffield direction? It's already enough of a pain if you're closely following another. It makes little sense if the train in the section beyond S46 has clear signals, as of course it normally would – the likelihood of it stopping is no higher than the likelihood of the train that's following it coming to a stand in the tunnel of its own accord!

 

[Mugby]

So there's a distant signal in Bradway on the Up Line?

Recently I travelled from Derby to Sheffield, due to the train being rather full I had to sit with back to travel on the six-foot side.
I could have sworn I saw a yellow aspect whilst passing through Bradway Tunnel but I thought I must have been mistaken.

 

[edwin_m]

So there's a distant signal in Bradway on the Up Line?

Recently I travelled from Derby to Sheffield, due to the train being rather full I had to sit with back to travel on the six-foot side.
I could have sworn I saw a yellow aspect whilst passing through Bradway Tunnel but I thought I must have been mistaken.

A distant signal can display a yellow, just not a red.

 

[GardenRail]

Makes more sense, thanks. Well, it clarifies it at least. How bizarre. Will that apply too if you're coming from Sheffield direction? It's already enough of a pain if you're closely following another. It makes little sense if the train in the section beyond S46 has clear signals, as of course it normally would – the likelihood of it stopping is no higher than the likelihood of the train that's following it coming to a stand in the tunnel of its own accord!

I believe so. Something to do with not wanting any part of a train stood in Bradway Tunnel. How close is S46 to the exit of Bradway Tunnel?

 

[The Planner]

I believe so. Something to do with not wanting any part of a train stood in Bradway Tunnel. How close is S46 to the exit of Bradway Tunnel?

Right on the exit, probably no more than 40m away from it.

 

[Tomnick]

I believe so. Something to do with not wanting any part of a train stood in Bradway Tunnel. How close is S46 to the exit of Bradway Tunnel?

It's very close, as @The Planner says. However, tunnel controls aren't a new thing, and usually only require that the train in the signal section beyond the tunnel has clear signals itself so it should keep moving. Otherwise, effectively, S46 can't function as a stop signal!

 

[Killingworth]

Work on the Bamford loop must be almost complete. These two telephoto shots accentuate the gradient but it may become a practical drawback when heavy loads of cement or stone aggregate have to slow down to enter, then build up speed again to get away.

Meanwhile the pedestrian footbridge at Hathersage West that was installed in January with a section still in a red undercoat remains closed. Sheeting around it suggests painting may be imminent.




At Dore the new platform and footbridge are slowly taking shape with the span and steps due to to go in within the next 4 weeks. Lots of signalling work digging up the platform



The Dore loop work is proceeding too but not much more for the public to see yet.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

@Killingworth - excellent set of action photos for the update. Thank you

 

[edwin_m]

Work on the Bamford loop must be almost complete. These two telephoto shots accentuate the gradient but it may become a practical drawback when heavy loads of cement or stone aggregate have to slow down to enter, then build up speed again to get away.

View attachment 147085

That's probably one reason why summits tend to have loops (the other being to help with handling bankers). This one's the opposite, so pretty much the worst place operationally on the entire section.

That signal looks new, presumably replacing an existing Earles intermediate block signal for the time being, but will need to become fully controlled with a junction indictor.

 

[Killingworth]

That's probably one reason why summits tend to have loops (the other being to help with handling bankers). This one's the opposite, so pretty much the worst place operationally on the entire section.

That signal looks new, presumably replacing an existing Earles intermediate block signal for the time being, but will need to become fully controlled with a junction indictor.

The loops were designed to shelter freight services, particularly from 3 fast services an hour which will remain as only 2. Who knows, the Bamford loop might be more effective if a freight could overtake a stopper? As long as the freight was close behind the looped stopper it shouldn't catch up with the freight after stopping at Hathersage and Grindleford.

We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[AndrewE]

Who knows, the Bamford loop might be more effective if a freight could overtake a stopper? As long as the freight was close behind the looped stopper it shouldn't catch up with the freight after stopping at Hathersage and Grindleford.

We'll just have to wait and see.

Is it even conceivable that the modern railway could think on its feet like that?
The Manchester-bound local from Crewe used to go into Chelford loop - timetabled - for an express to pass, but is there any example of this on BR today?

 

[GardenRail]

Is it even conceivable that the modern railway could think on its feet like that?

Depends which Signaller is on at the time.....

 

[Killingworth]

However the congestion around Dore West is eased considerably by the extended Dore chord. With no extra scheduled passenger services expected any time soon that will be where pulling away round the tight curve and up into Bradway tunnel will be most difficult.

 

[louis97]

That signal looks new, presumably replacing an existing Earles intermediate block signal for the time being, but will need to become fully controlled with a junction indictor.

That signal is the pre-existing signal, it will be replaced by a new signal to line up with where the TPWS grids are - DE5104.

 

[LowLevel]

Is it even conceivable that the modern railway could think on its feet like that?
The Manchester-bound local from Crewe used to go into Chelford loop - timetabled - for an express to pass, but is there any example of this on BR today?

Don't get your hopes up. My on time class 1 was stuffed for 30 minutes by York ROC putting a 30 minutes late Sheffield - Man Picc stopper into Heeley up loop earlier, letting a London service that doesn't follow it for more than 5 minutes overtake it, and then turning it back out directly in front of us to the point we'd caught it by Dore.

Net result - the fast train and it's back working lost their path, both were 30 minutes late and the back working being part cancelled missing Dore and Sheffield in the middle of the evening peak.

Doesn't matter though - the stopper was late and out of path so nothing sticks to the ROC and there's no way of complaining about it. A further short wait would have swapped the places of the two trains and not messed up several hundred people's day.

I absolutely hate working long distance trains at the minute - NR's kit seems to be totally shot in East Anglia and failing all the time and the Manchester recast now means a 5 minute delay in reaching Hazel Grove turns into 20 minutes at Lime Street as a whole host of trains have been squeezed together and in no time at all the signallers regulate you to death.

 

[Tomnick]

Don't get your hopes up. My on time class 1 was stuffed for 30 minutes by York ROC putting a 30 minutes late Sheffield - Man Picc stopper into Heeley up loop earlier, letting a London service that doesn't follow it for more than 5 minutes overtake it, and then turning it back out directly in front of us to the point we'd caught it by Dore.

That might've made sense if there was something coming off the Hope Valley that'd have got in the way of the stopper anyway. I'd imagine that there wasn't, though?!

I'd have thought the approach release on the protecting signal for Heeley Loop and the slow crawl inside would've delayed the London more than letting the stopper go across at Dore under flashing yellows.

You're right, though. There's no accountability for poor regulating as long as it can be tenuously stuck to some late runner.

 

[LowLevel]

That might've made sense if there was something coming off the Hope Valley that'd have got in the way of the stopper anyway. I'd imagine that there wasn't, though?!

I'd have thought the approach release on the protecting signal for Heeley Loop and the slow crawl inside would've delayed the London more than letting the stopper go across at Dore under flashing yellows.

You're right, though. There's no accountability for poor regulating as long as it can be tenuously stuck to some late runner.

The last train off the Valley before it went on was 15 minutes earlier.

 

[Killingworth]

The last train off the Valley before it went on was 15 minutes earlier.

Observed today at Dore services were dire as delay was building on delay from before 8 this morning. If anything EMR did best of the 3 TOCs judged on westbound services. What started it is beyond me to work out but there must have been a lot of hacked off passengers and railway staff across a wide area as the ripples spread through the whole day.

Northern stoppers are allowed about 7 minutes to turn round at Sheffield but frequently manage it in 3. They can then be held in the Heeley loop or at Dore Station Junction for anything that may have preference on the MML. At the Hope Valley public inquiry back in 2016 it was suggested that an option shown in the documentation (probably left on a diagram in error) should be pursued. It appeared that making the platforms at Dore bi-directional could have been arranged. If that happened a stopper might be able to get out and across the MML to Dore and then be overtaken while stopped in the station. Another probably cheaper option in earlier documents might have been developed to allow that stopper to pull into the Dore loop to be overtaken. Reason why not for both? Cost of points and signalling (installation and maintenance) for facilities not expected to be used.

For today going west see; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt

 

[LowLevel]

Observed today at Dore services were dire as delay was building on delay from before 8 this morning. If anything EMR did best of the 3 TOCs judged on westbound services. What started it is beyond me to work out but there must have been a lot of hacked off passengers and railway staff across a wide area as the ripples spread through the whole day.

Northern stoppers are allowed about 7 minutes to turn round at Sheffield but frequently manage it in 3. They can then be held in the Heeley loop or at Dore Station Junction for anything that may have preference on the MML. At the Hope Valley public inquiry back in 2016 it was suggested that an option shown in the documentation (probably left on a diagram in error) should be pursued. It appeared that making the platforms at Dore bi-directional could have been arranged. If that happened a stopper might be able to get out and across the MML to Dore and then be overtaken while stopped in the station. Another probably cheaper option in earlier documents might have been developed to allow that stopper to pull into the Dore loop to be overtaken. Reason why not for both? Cost of points and signalling (installation and maintenance) for facilities not expected to be used.

For today going west see; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt

Not a good day, broken fishplates at New Mills South, a points failure at Buxton on the lines from Hindlow and leaf fall issues with track circuits at Marple all causing issues it seems.

 

[cuemaster]

The loops were designed to shelter freight services, particularly from 3 fast services an hour which will remain as only 2. Who knows, the Bamford loop might be more effective if a freight could overtake a stopper? As long as the freight was close behind the looped stopper it shouldn't catch up with the freight after stopping at Hathersage and Grindleford.

We'll just have to wait and see.

Will the new loop and the work in and around Dore station allow 3 fast services in the future or is there a constraint somewhere? Thanks for the photos - they're very informative as to the progress being made!

 

[GardenRail]

Will the new loop and the work in and around Dore station allow 3 fast services in the future or is there a constraint somewhere? Thanks for the photos - they're very informative as to the progress being made!

The constraints are, it's still archaic signalling beyond Bamford towards Manchester. Until North West gets their bit modernised, it's all a little pointless.

 

[Bald Rick]

The constraints are, it's still archaic signalling beyond Bamford towards Manchester. Until North West gets their bit modernised, it's all a little pointless.

The constraint is Manchester. HS2 Phase 2b will sort that out.

Oh.

 

[59CosG95]

The constraint is Manchester. HS2 Phase 2b will sort that out.

Oh.

It's posts like these that make me yearn for a like button!

 

[Killingworth]

Will the new loop and the work in and around Dore station allow 3 fast services in the future or is there a constraint somewhere? Thanks for the photos - they're very informative as to the progress being made!

There's also a constraint of paths from Dore into Sheffield and platform capacity.

When the scheme was being planned the expectation was probably for 2 car stoppers continuing to use Platform 2C but the 3 cars now being run can't. Last summer 6 coach stoppers were put in Platform 1 but sharing with a 6 car TPE won't work for regular trains . Plenty of length for both but points and signals make that tricky - the Northern service has to stop clear of the crossover, then move forward again over it once the TPE has left to allow sight of the starting signal to reverse and move off towards Dore!

Electrification (by 2030, but 2035 may be a better bet) should provide opportunity to reconfigure the layout adding more effective platform lengths.

Electrification should (but will it?) also add a third track from Dore into Sheffield. A shame the 4 tracks from Dore into Sheffield built about 1900 were reduced to 2 in the 1960-80s period and parts of the trackbed sold off.

 

[Class 170101]

The constraint is Manchester. HS2 Phase 2b will sort that out.

Oh.

Go and get your coat for talking common sense

 

[td97]

Tamping is planned tonight and tomorrow at Woodsmoor and Hazel Grove respectively relating to resignalling & line speed increase through these areas.

 

[The exile]

Is it even conceivable that the modern railway could think on its feet like that?
The Manchester-bound local from Crewe used to go into Chelford loop - timetabled - for an express to pass, but is there any example of this on BR today?

I was on one that did precisely that a couple of weeks ago - though I don’t think it was scheduled.