Hope Valley Capacity Scheme

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,393
Thanks for this - very interesting. Forgive my ignorance, but does this show resignalling of the line from Earles to Dore, or is it simply recontrol to York ROC? Apologies if this is obvious to some! Many thanks.
Complete resignalling, including the replacement of the semaphore signalling at Grindleford.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

backfire22m3

New Member
Joined
1 Aug 2016
Messages
2
Complete resignalling, including the replacement of the semaphore signalling at Grindleford.
Thank you. I hadn’t realised this was included as part of the capacity scheme, but having now read through this fascinating thread it seems that the resignalling and recontrol was a necessary requirement for the works at Dore and Bamford.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
19,341
Location
Nottingham
Thanks for this - very interesting. Forgive my ignorance, but does this show resignalling of the line from Earles to Dore, or is it simply recontrol to York ROC? Apologies if this is obvious to some! Many thanks.
Most of the signaling here is currently mechanical. Unless someone is doing something very clever with electric actuators on lever frames, this type of signaling can't be re-controlled and has to be fully replaced (re-signalled).
 

lammergeier

Member
Joined
5 Oct 2017
Messages
267
Thanks for this - very interesting. Forgive my ignorance, but does this show resignalling of the line from Earles to Dore, or is it simply recontrol to York ROC? Apologies if this is obvious to some! Many thanks.
It looks like full resignalling, going from semaphore signalling controlled by local boxes at Grindleford and Totley to more modern signalling controlled by York
 

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
557
Location
Yorkshire
It will all eventually, give the York ROC signallers a bigger heads up of what is coming down the Hooe Valley so we can better plan a freight train getting on to the MML at Dore South. Its a bit awkward at present as we dont het much warning and cannot see whats happening at Earles for example other than a lame trust page.
 

8J

Member
Joined
31 Aug 2009
Messages
560
It will all eventually, give the York ROC signallers a bigger heads up of what is coming down the Hooe Valley so we can better plan a freight train getting on to the MML at Dore South. Its a bit awkward at present as we dont het much warning and cannot see whats happening at Earles for example other than a lame trust page.
Any timescales for when the resignaling may happen?
 

Joseph_Locke

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2012
Messages
1,868
Location
Within earshot of trains passing the one and half
It will all eventually, give the York ROC signallers a bigger heads up of what is coming down the Hooe Valley so we can better plan a freight train getting on to the MML at Dore South. Its a bit awkward at present as we dont het much warning and cannot see whats happening at Earles for example other than a lame trust page.
All part of the original plan, plus a loop at Bamford to regulate with and longer standage round from West to South at Dore should help also.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
2,296
Location
Sheffield
All part of the original plan, plus a loop at Bamford to regulate with and longer standage round from West to South at Dore should help also.
The originally hoped for long loop/chord at Dore West hasn't been possible at the length preferred due to the inconvenient existence of a modern 4 storey block of flats in the way. Having alarmed any resident who may have got wind at the pre-consultation consideration of dreams stage that was dropped, presumably because it was financially prohibitive. The result is that the longest trains will still have to come out of the Hope Valley through Sheffield.

It's important to try and keep any heavily laden stone and cement trains rolling round the Dore curve onto the mainline south so standing there is to be avoided if at all possible. They're making a 90 degree tight turn across the junctions and then uphill into Bradway Tunnel so regulating them down the valley is vital so as not to block the mainlines for any longer than absolutely necessary. Once out and across from Earle's they can wait in the Bamford loop for a gap to become available on the mainline. Similarly, laden trains from the Buxton quarries can get to that point to await a path north or south at Dore.

The Dore loop may be used more often to stand shorter empty trains from the south where the weight is less and it's probably easier to pull away, with longer trains still coming through Sheffield.
 

Joseph_Locke

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2012
Messages
1,868
Location
Within earshot of trains passing the one and half
... existence of a modern 4 storey block of flats in the way.
Not quite - it was the complexities of demolishing and rebuilding the one and only access to said block of flats that was (is) the financially prohibitive bit, long before the civilians got to see it. As with all loops, the specification started at 775m ... until someone pointed out how unlikely it was that a 775m train would ever be asked to get up the 1:100 hill.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
2,296
Location
Sheffield
Multiple possessions are fraught with difficulty, Although as you say most of the stone comes out via Grindleford and Dore - If a blockade strategy was adopted stone and cement trains could it not be run on the same route as Tunstead trains to WCML destinations - Chinley- New Mills Central - Romiley - Guide Bridge - Heaton Norris - Crewe Basford Hall - and thence to either Stoke or Lichfield and on to Stenson Jn. It's a Great Circle but it would only be necessary for the duration of the blockade.
Looking at this again I see that route is used for very rare trains, like coal movements from South Wales to Earles; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H06634/2020-06-08/detailed

It's quite a trek around some busy sections so hardly surprising it's not used very often. On this day the delay getting into Earles wasn't a problem as no passenger trains were due during the extended time taken for the reversal. On other days delays have occurred.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
2,296
Location
Sheffield
Seems there's currently an issue within Totley Tunnel as both yesterday morning and today trains have been cancelled or delayed for track inspections between Grindleford and Dore. A speed restriction has been in force. For several months Network Rail have been working to improve drainage in the tunnel and to reline the deepest air shaft. There may be a connection.

Improving resilience through the tunnels must be a priority. They have always been very wet and any work to tackle that must be a big bonus. Anything delaying trains along the almost 4 mile signalling block through Totley Tunnel between Grindleford and Totley has potential knock on effects over a wide area.
 

Jozhua

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2019
Messages
1,174
Seems there's currently an issue within Totley Tunnel as both yesterday morning and today trains have been cancelled or delayed for track inspections between Grindleford and Dore. A speed restriction has been in force. For several months Network Rail have been working to improve drainage in the tunnel and to reline the deepest air shaft. There may be a connection.

Improving resilience through the tunnels must be a priority. They have always been very wet and any work to tackle that must be a big bonus. Anything delaying trains along the almost 4 mile signalling block through Totley Tunnel between Grindleford and Totley has potential knock on effects over a wide area.
Well good job no Hope Valley trains run through the Castlefield Corridor!

That tunnel already takes ages to clear, can't imagine being stuck in it for 10+ minutes, although I don't know what the new speed limit is.
 

davyp

Member
Joined
9 Dec 2012
Messages
54
Location
Sth Manchester
Well good job no Hope Valley trains run through the Castlefield Corridor!
That tunnel already takes ages to clear, can't imagine being stuck in it for 10+ minutes, although I don't know what the new speed limit is.
[/QUOTE]

One train per hour each direction through the Hope Valley and the Castlefield corridor: Liverpool - Norwich - EMR.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
2,296
Location
Sheffield
I understand the scheme is still on track for final DfT approval by the end of the year only requiring HM Treasury approval. If that's correct spades may be appearing in the ground by the end of 2021 - with excavators properly started in early 2022 and the scheme might be finished as early as July 2023.

It's a lot later than December 2018 advised in the original public consultations but achieving useable tracks in time for December 2023 timetable changes is beginning to look very likely.

However, TOCs have been warned that although capacity for 3 fast trains wil exist through the Hope Valley there will be restrictions to that in Sheffield and Manchester but they should be resolved within 30 years, the timescale used to evaluate the scheme.
 

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
557
Location
Yorkshire
It looks like the signalling part from Totley and Grindleford will not now get transfered onto Sheffield Workstation due to workload. Earles looks set to get a panel installed.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
19,341
Location
Nottingham
It looks like the signalling part from Totley and Grindleford will not now get transfered onto Sheffield Workstation due to workload. Earles looks set to get a panel installed.
That's a strange justification. Keep two or three manual signal boxes (so two or three posts) to avoid adding one workstation (one post plus a portion of a relief to cover breaks)? Or is it about the workload and availability of the people designing and implementing the changes?
 

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
557
Location
Yorkshire
That's a strange justification. Keep two or three manual signal boxes (so two or three posts) to avoid adding one workstation (one post plus a portion of a relief to cover breaks)? Or is it about the workload and availability of the people designing and implementing the changes?
Totley and Grindleford will be controlled from Earles. Sheffield WS is already due to take over Woodburn (some of) when it shuts, so i guess its the workload of the signaller that is questioned.
 

4-SUB 4732

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2018
Messages
1,287
That's a strange justification. Keep two or three manual signal boxes (so two or three posts) to avoid adding one workstation (one post plus a portion of a relief to cover breaks)? Or is it about the workload and availability of the people designing and implementing the changes?
A panel at Earles is hardly a major issue. It will still allow good headways, and speed control into/out of loops. That said, if the designs are already done to allow Hope to Sheffield to be on the same workstation I'm surprised they wouldn't put it in.

Is there any plan to close boxes at the western end? Chinley, New Mills etc.? I'm guessing the restrictive track layout near Hazel Grove will also be sorted?
 

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
557
Location
Yorkshire
A panel at Earles is hardly a major issue. It will still allow good headways, and speed control into/out of loops. That said, if the designs are already done to allow Hope to Sheffield to be on the same workstation I'm surprised they wouldn't put it in.

Is there any plan to close boxes at the western end? Chinley, New Mills etc.? I'm guessing the restrictive track layout near Hazel Grove will also be sorted?
No plans for West of Earles
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,393
That's a strange justification. Keep two or three manual signal boxes (so two or three posts) to avoid adding one workstation (one post plus a portion of a relief to cover breaks)? Or is it about the workload and availability of the people designing and implementing the changes?
Earles Sidings wasn't proposed for closure as part of the scheme though (it would've become the fringe to Sheffield W/S) so there's no extra cost other than perhaps making it a higher grade.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
19,341
Location
Nottingham
Noted that Earles is planned to control the territory of all three boxes and apparently was never planned to be replaced. So the line will still be reliant on an individual working alone in a location that's pretty inaccessible in poor weather, and there will be a split of control between the junctions at Totley and the loop at Bamford that's critical to regulating them.

Not much can be done about Hazel Grove without doubling the chord, which would be geometrically difficult and would impinge on a graveyard. However once that's the only single line on the route it would be possible to write the timetable round that rather than having to deal with the constraint at Dore as well.
 

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
557
Location
Yorkshire
Noted that Earles is planned to control the territory of all three boxes and apparently was never planned to be replaced. So the line will still be reliant on an individual working alone in a location that's pretty inaccessible in poor weather, and there will be a split of control between the junctions at Totley and the loop at Bamford that's critical to regulating them.

Not much can be done about Hazel Grove without doubling the chord, which would be geometrically difficult and would impinge on a graveyard. However once that's the only single line on the route it would be possible to write the timetable round that rather than having to deal with the constraint at Dore as well.
Just another example of South Transpennine being second best. I hope they give Sheffield Workstation sufficient read back to see whats coming. Also seems odd given all the effort of designing it for Sheffield Workstation.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
6,171
It looks like the signalling part from Totley and Grindleford will not now get transfered onto Sheffield Workstation due to workload. Earles looks set to get a panel installed.
Totley and Grindleford will be controlled from Earles. Sheffield WS is already due to take over Woodburn (some of) when it shuts, so i guess its the workload of the signaller that is questioned.
When Workstations are designed surely the maximum theoretical limits of the workstation's control need to be known before it is built.

As @edwin_m states below Earles seems to be in a challenging spot for lone working

Noted that Earles is planned to control the territory of all three boxes and apparently was never planned to be replaced. So the line will still be reliant on an individual working alone in a location that's pretty inaccessible in poor weather, and there will be a split of control between the junctions at Totley and the loop at Bamford that's critical to regulating them.
Therefore to me not knowing the exact area that Sheffield workstation controls suggests to me that perhaps Sheffield needs to be split between Sheffield and Dore with the southern section given over to another workstation with this new workstation fringing Sheffield and controlling Hope Valley rather than this panel at Earles.
 

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
557
Location
Yorkshire
When Workstations are designed surely the maximum theoretical limits of the workstation's control need to be known before it is built.

As @edwin_m states below Earles seems to be in a challenging spot for lone working



Therefore to me not knowing the exact area that Sheffield workstation controls suggests to me that perhaps Sheffield needs to be split between Sheffield and Dore with the southern section given over to another workstation with this new workstation fringing Sheffield and controlling Hope Valley rather than this panel at Earles.
Sheffield Workstation fringes with Totley Box just West of Dore West Jn. EMCC just South of Dronfield. Barnsley at Meadowhall, and Rotherham WS at Tinsley Viaduct. Woodburn just beyond Nunnery Jn. Sheffield Signaller needs to control the Dore triangle to work the station, if that was taken away, it would be pot luck as to what was coming next, a Hope Valley train or MML.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
6,171
Sheffield Workstation fringes with Totley Box just West of Dore West Jn. EMCC just South of Dronfield. Barnsley at Meadowhall, and Rotherham WS at Tinsley Viaduct. Woodburn just beyond Nunnery Jn. Sheffield Signaller needs to control the Dore triangle to work the station, if that was taken away, it would be pot luck as to what was coming next, a Hope Valley train or MML.
In that case the split (in my book) needed to be Sheffield Workstation as it stands needs to lose control of the triangle and another workstation at York ROC placed next to it that does the triangle, Hope Valley and down to Dronfield so the signallers work together.

Perhaps its me or would that area have been better on a panel with two signallers working the panel rather than workstation (IECC) style?
 

WestRiding

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
557
Location
Yorkshire
In that case the split (in my book) needed to be Sheffield Workstation as it stands needs to lose control of the triangle and another workstation at York ROC placed next to it that does the triangle, Hope Valley and down to Dronfield so the signallers work together.

Perhaps its me or would that area have been better on a panel with two signallers working the panel rather than workstation (IECC) style?
No room for another Workstation in the ROC, no where near to Sheffield WS that is. Given the size of some Workstations i find it hard to believe that the Hope Valley to Hope would send it over the edge.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
19,341
Location
Nottingham
No room for another Workstation in the ROC, no where near to Sheffield WS that is. Given the size of some Workstations i find it hard to believe that the Hope Valley to Hope would send it over the edge.
I know it's a bit harder than moving the furniture, but it's all networked IT so nowhere near as complicated as changing a panel. If there is space elsewhere on the operating floor then not being able to move the workstations around is a pretty poor excuse. If there's no space then someone fouled up when planning the ROC, as I'm sure it's eventually intended to control a much larger area than it does now.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
2,296
Location
Sheffield
Back in August 2020, only 2 months ago, detailed signalling plans still seem to have included Sheffield work station taking over from Totley Tunnel East and Grindleford. There's a little footnote including outstanding issues and one is capacity and workloads at York and Sheffield. After so many years of planning and delays it's probably only to be expected that there'd be a few more, but it seems odd that this quite major detail hasn't been resolved before now. The split had been advised to be happening very early in the public consultation.

The devils are in the details. The project's aspirational technical headways at full line speed are 160 seconds. However, this can't be achieved through Totley Tunnel so that pushes the theoretical figure to 230 seconds Up Hope Valley and 254 seconds Down.

Which just goes to prove that as soon as you resolve one bottleneck you quickly become aware of another.
 

Top