Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[Starmill]

I imagine freight trains have timetables just like passenger trains, and only get changed at certain times, else the trains could conflict along the route. Maybe the new loop allows for extra trains that are yet to run.

Indeed. There has of course been such a change and is another in a few weeks, but not on any meaningful notice yet to get pick up and delivery times amended with the customer. That's even if the FOC can actually find a journey time improvement from using the loop.

It's still available for use in disruption of course.

 

[edwin_m]

The rationale and difficulty with the loop and heavy stone trains was pointed out at the public inquiry. Once an aggregate train has pulled out and across the westbound traffic at Chinley East Junction and gets up momentum it's best kept going. Slowing it down to enter the Bamford loop, then pulling away to regain that momentum will add at least the 7 minutes delay experienced by the Northern 195 service I highlighted above. The 195's stopping and acceleration performance is much greater.

Those who pointed out this now fairly obvious fact were largely brushed aside to consider all the objections to things like noise, pollution, closure of a pedestrian footpath and replacement new footbridge.

In practice timetabling a second hourly skip stopping service to use the loop could be it's most useful role (a 4th hourly service between Manchester and Sheffield) - except that capacity probably isn't there going west!

However there are days when traffic may need capacity to, say, 'stack' a cement train in the Dore loop for a path south and an aggregate train at Bamford for a path through Sheffield. I might have suggested making the section from Dore West Junction to Dore Station Junction bi-directional would be cheaper and give greater flexibility without losing much but better brains than mine decided differently.

All true, not helped by the gradient descending on the approach to the loop and ascending after leaving it. So for a freight going eastward from Chinley or Earles it's probably better not to let it onto the main line until it's likely to get a clear run. The extended west to south curve is more useful in this respect, because the curvature forces trains to slow down anyway so the penalty of stopping them is less.

I tend to agree the main benefit of this loop will be in out-of-course running when a freight is already on its way but some problem means it won't be able to continue onto the main line, particularly if going via Sheffield where there's really nowhere else to put it until after the station (depending on route). This does of course have to become known before the route is set to take the main line at Bamford.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I'm rather bemused by all the fuss about 'freight not using Bamford Loop (much)'. I was under the impression that the loop was part of the prelude to a 'fourth' hourly Manchester <> Sheffield passenger service. As we know that is not now likely to materialise for a considerable while. So why would freight start using the loop if it isn't (yet) necessary, outside of disruption?

In a wider context, with Bamford Loop allowing a re-start up a 1:120 gradient on favourably aligned track it is better than starting off Dore South Curve, loaded, southbound straight onto 1:100 all the way through Bradway Tunnel with the train heavily leaning in to a sharp curve. The trick will be to time and regulate freight trains at Bamford as necessary ready to release them and hit Dore South in a gap between Up and Down MML services.

Holding southbound cement trains at Earle's Sidings until they are in a position to get a clear run all the way through Dore South should be fairly straightforward. However, letting a loaded train out of Chinley East is often necessary in order to clear the curve for a returning set of empties towards Peak Forest, even if it isn't likely to have a clear path through Dore South at that point.

 

[InOban]

I thought that the point of the extended Dore West to South chord was to allow freight to be held there because a southbound freight needs not only a gap in both up and down MML services but also a gap in trains from Sheffield towards the Hope Valley. The extended chord is specifically to allow trains to be held there, even if it does mean restarting on an adverse gradient and curvature.

 

[Killingworth]

I thought that the point of the extended Dore West to South chord was to allow freight to be held there because a southbound freight needs not only a gap in both up and down MML services but also a gap in trains from Sheffield towards the Hope Valley. The extended chord is specifically to allow trains to be held there, even if it does mean restarting on an adverse gradient and curvature.

Correct, and that's how it's being used several times every day. It's a drag out of the loop to go south and takes quite some time to cross, particularly if it has had to wait for a clear path.

 

[LowLevel]

I still, bringing this thread back to life a bit, can't imagine the idea that anyone would ever think a 4th passenger train per hour with the current set up is a good idea.

The Chinley junctions are an absolute nightmare with their slow line speeds and the absolute block to/from Edale and the freight rarely actually manages to achieve it's scheduled running times, usually because the Northern stopper running late causes it to stop/start on the gradients.

I cannot remember the last time I worked a train that wasn't 15 minutes late into Stockport because it left Sheffield on time and then got stuck at Edale waiting for something to crawl round to Peak Forest, usually itself been delayed by the Northern stopper either having been held for TPE or lost time itself, then setting off the chain of getting stuck at Hazel Grove behind the train from Buxton, Slade Lane behind the Chester and the Barrow/Windermere and then messing up the CLC local train as well as that gets held at Oxford Road or Glazebrook.

It's deeply tedious and if I never had to work a train on the route with the current schedule again it would be a delight - for a perfect working example check out 2S81 1214 Sheffield - Man Picc today losing time en route with apparently slow station work, delaying the following freight bound for Tunstead and trashing the EMR 1R66 0856 Norwich - Liverpool which left Sheffield on time.

 

[LowLevel]

You sum it up perfectly... Add in lack of capacity at Manchester Piccadilly and Sheffield. If only fast trains, that do not stop had another route.

What I will say though is that the Man Picc PSB signallers are superb - they're far and away the best I've seen anywhere for weaving trains around and keeping them moving, all on an NX panel. Watching Slade Lane is a work of art.

 

[Trainman40083]

What I will say though is that the Man Picc PSB signallers are superb - they're far and away the best I've seen anywhere for weaving trains around and keeping them moving, all on an NX panel. Watching Slade Lane is a work of art.

I agree, they are.

 

[Chester1]

I still, bringing this thread back to life a bit, can't imagine the idea that anyone would ever think a 4th passenger train per hour with the current set up is a good idea.

The Chinley junctions are an absolute nightmare with their slow line speeds and the absolute block to/from Edale and the freight rarely actually manages to achieve it's scheduled running times, usually because the Northern stopper running late causes it to stop/start on the gradients.

I cannot remember the last time I worked a train that wasn't 15 minutes late into Stockport because it left Sheffield on time and then got stuck at Edale waiting for something to crawl round to Peak Forest, usually itself been delayed by the Northern stopper either having been held for TPE or lost time itself, then setting off the chain of getting stuck at Hazel Grove behind the train from Buxton, Slade Lane behind the Chester and the Barrow/Windermere and then messing up the CLC local train as well as that gets held at Oxford Road or Glazebrook.

It's deeply tedious and if I never had to work a train on the route with the current schedule again it would be a delight - for a perfect working example check out 2S81 1214 Sheffield - Man Picc today losing time en route with apparently slow station work, delaying the following freight bound for Tunstead and trashing the EMR 1R66 0856 Norwich - Liverpool which left Sheffield on time.

It's amazing how many problems are left after all the work that has been done!

 

[Dr Hoo]

I wasn’t aware that any work around Chinley was included in the Hope Valley Upgrade scheme.

The entirely separate Strategic Freight Network train lengthening scheme did include effectively ‘lengthening’ the Chinley south curves for longer and heavier trains (along with other works elsewhere such as the Buxton run-round). It is hardly surprising that longer, heavier freights take longer to clear sections and accelerate from rest or uphill.

 

[Brush 4]

The implication being that work was done but, not everywhere it was needed, resulting in problems remaining after 'loads of work' was done. Now it will be 10-20 years before Chinley is sorted, if it ever is, bearing in mind how long this scheme took from talking about it to completion.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this is a railway infrastructure thread to discuss updates regarding the Hope Valley upgrade.

Timetabling updates would belong in the timetabling section, while any posts of a speculative nature belong exclusively in Speculative Discussion please.

Many thanks.

 

[Killingworth]

Work at Dore is almost, but not quite, complete. Barring landscaping it may be by early January. Work seemed to be going well today.

The big unforeseen difficulty has been the hillside below Poynton Wood above the Dore chord/loop. It proved to be less stable than ground surveys had discovered calling for retaining walls instead of soil nailing - although the plans at the time of the 2016 public inquiry showed retaining walls!

Compounding this has been some exceptionally wet weather that made the corner curving away towards Dore Tunnel to the Midland Mainline a quagmire of standing water last winter. That has also necessitated extra work



Residents in the adjacent flats understood work would be complete by August/September, landscaping in October 2023. They're totally fed up with loss of parking, the noise and mud.



Down at Dore & Totley station itself users can't help noticing work is incomplete. The entrance to the car park remains dominated by a residual work camp. Tidying up work is now in progress.



However users are getting no more passenger trains between Sheffield and Manchester. Imperceptible improvements in punctuality for EMR and TPE trains perhaps. Northern's performance has been a total kick in the teeth for rail users, mostly for reasons unrelated to the scheme - but not totally unrelated. There have been several instances of their eastbound services being looped at Bamford to permit TPE or EMR services to pass. Neither passengers nor Northern are happy about that.

 

[Mugby]

What is the major engineering work being carried out from Monday 6 to Friday 10 January in the Dore area?
Nothing calling at Dore and EMR services acting as the stopper in lieu of the Northern service?

Is it more work on the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme or is it unrelated?

 

[Geeves]

What is the major engineering work being carried out from Monday 6 to Friday 10 January in the Dore area?
Nothing calling at Dore and EMR services acting as the stopper in lieu of the Northern service?

Is it more work on the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme or is it unrelated?

There's all sorts of weird and wonderful journeys to be had on the Monday. Northern are running to New Mills Central with a bus to Chinley to connect to EMR

EMR are running all stops Chinley to Grindleford where there's a replacement bus calling at Dore and then Sheffield ran by Northern. EMR are not calling at Sheffield.

Finally there's a TPE Piccadilly to Sheffield that's running via Huddersfield!

Presumably there's works at both ends?

 

[eastwestdivide]

What is the major engineering work being carried out from Monday 6 to Friday 10 January in the Dore area?
Nothing calling at Dore and EMR services acting as the stopper in lieu of the Northern service?

Is it more work on the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme or is it unrelated?

Also Sheffield/London and XC services are going via Barrow Hill, so whatever the works are, they’re the Sheffield side of Dore. Can’t find out exactly what though.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Work at Dore is almost, but not quite, complete. Barring landscaping it may be by early January. Work seemed to be going well today.

The big unforeseen difficulty has been the hillside below Poynton Wood above the Dore chord/loop. It proved to be less stable than ground surveys had discovered calling for retaining walls instead of soil nailing - although the plans at the time of the 2016 public inquiry showed retaining walls!

Compounding this has been some exceptionally wet weather that made the corner curving away towards Dore Tunnel to the Midland Mainline a quagmire of standing water last winter. That has also necessitated extra work

View attachment 171637

Residents in the adjacent flats understood work would be complete by August/September, landscaping in October 2023. They're totally fed up with loss of parking, the noise and mud.

View attachment 171639View attachment 171638

Down at Dore & Totley station itself users can't help noticing work is incomplete. The entrance to the car park remains dominated by a residual work camp. Tidying up work is now in progress.

View attachment 171640 View attachment 171641

However users are getting no more passenger trains between Sheffield and Manchester. Imperceptible improvements in punctuality for EMR and TPE trains perhaps. Northern's performance has been a total kick in the teeth for rail users, mostly for reasons unrelated to the scheme - but not totally unrelated. There have been several instances of their eastbound services being looped at Bamford to permit TPE or EMR services to pass. Neither passengers nor Northern are happy about that.

Is it still an offence to 'deposit mud upon the highway'?
There ought to be a roadsweeper in there, perhaps a wheelwash (or orange person with hosepipe).

 

[Manutd1999]

However users are getting no more passenger trains between Sheffield and Manchester. Imperceptible improvements in punctuality for EMR and TPE trains perhaps.

Indeed - seems like we can add this to list of rail industry "upgrades" which never actually lead to any benefits (see also the ECML timetable debacle and various other examples).

Do these constraints between Manchester and Sheffield actually exist now? There are still some Buxton/Hazel Grove services not restored since Covid and XC are not running 2ph through Sheffield until next year (maybe...).

If there really isn't space, why weren't these constraints identified before the work began? Would the cost-benefit ratio still be acceptable if the mythical third path had never been mentioned?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Indeed - seems like we can add this to list of rail industry "upgrades" which never actually lead to any benefits (see also the ECML timetable debacle and various other examples).

Do these constraints between Manchester and Sheffield actually exist now? There are still some Buxton/Hazel Grove services not restored since Covid and XC are not running 2ph through Sheffield until next year (maybe...).

If there really isn't space, why weren't these constraints identified before the work began? Would the cost-benefit ratio still be acceptable if the mythical third path had never been mentioned?

Which Hazel Grove and Buxton services are still missing?

 

[Manutd1999]

I thought it used to be 2ph to Buxton + 1ph terminating at Hazel Grove all day? Seems to be 1ph each at the moment except for a few peak extras.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed - seems like we can add this to list of rail industry "upgrades" which never actually lead to any benefits (see also the ECML timetable debacle and various other examples).

Do these constraints between Manchester and Sheffield actually exist now? There are still some Buxton/Hazel Grove services not restored since Covid and XC are not running 2ph through Sheffield until next year (maybe...).

If there really isn't space, why weren't these constraints identified before the work began? Would the cost-benefit ratio still be acceptable if the mythical third path had never been mentioned?

It's certainly not that they don't deliver any benefits though is it?

The issue in both cases is that the industry hasn't synchronised the upgrades according to getting bigger benefits sooner, nor for a realistic timetable for agreed timetable recast. Usually they've done them according to whatever limited schemes funding could be found for.

I thought it used to be 2ph to Buxton + 1ph terminating at Hazel Grove all day? Seems to be 1ph each at the moment except for a few peak extras.

I'm not really sure this is material though, given the real issue is a lack of platforms at Sheffield and flat crossing moves outside the station.

 

[eastwestdivide]

On the plus side, the longer Dore W-S curve and the doubled line and junction through the station are definitely showing benefits in reducing knock-on delays.

 

[Spartacus]

On the plus side, the longer Dore W-S curve and the doubled line and junction through the station are definitely showing benefits in reducing knock-on delays.

Without any shadow of a doubt.

 

[Killingworth]

What is the major engineering work being carried out from Monday 6 to Friday 10 January in the Dore area?
Nothing calling at Dore and EMR services acting as the stopper in lieu of the Northern service?

Is it more work on the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme or is it unrelated?

Track replacement outside Sheffield. See; https://www.networkrailmediacentre....n-train-journeys-in-sheffield-area-in-january

Local rail users are probably still in the dark about this, including the rail replacement bus times, although they can be found on RTT. EMR have their full timetable on their website at; https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/media/3627/download?inline

Meanwhile most of the remaining work on the new Dore loop was completed during the Xmas blockade in time for those wanting to see it up close on a ride from Dronfield to Grindleford. A rare opportunity to travel through all 3 tunnels in Sheffield's Dore & Totley Ward - Bradway, Dore and Totley.

 

[Killingworth]

Possibly not the final update but I've been going through the mountain of paper and computer files I've amassed since the first public consultations in 2013, 2015 and the public inquiry in 2016.

Supposedly over £150m spent, but how much over I don't expect Network Rail or the government really knows. Where the early expenditure on planning since the late 1990s is now hidden so who can tell?

Whatever, all the paperwork I've still got tells a story - of surveys for bats, badgers, foxes, newts, owls, and every plant anywhere near the sites. Drainage, noise, air pollution, gradients, signalling, electricity supply, the list could get very long.

Meanwhile the Manchester Recovery Task Force found it necessary to send TPE's Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport service to Liverpool instead. Northern deployed 195s to replace Pacers on the stopping service allowing it to be stopped at all stations hourly from December 2022. Limestone no longer goes to Trent Valley power stations and coal no longer comes in from South Wales to feed the Hope Cement Works - but biomass occasionally gets routed this way from Liverpool to Drax. Passenger capacity is being provided by more 6 car trains operated by both TPE and EMR (although they haven't the stock to do much more).

Neither fast service operator has either rolling stock or crews to run an extra hourly fast service even if paths into and through Manchester and Sheffield could be found. They can't. So what was it all for? Increased reliability of all services. As a user I find that hard to see.

Parochially I judge things from Dore & Totley. Over the last 5 years Dore has consistently come within the worst 500 stations in the country for punctuality of trains, as have all the Hope Valley stations. Trying to be fair there was a short period when Dore came within the worst 25 in the OnTimeTrains listings, but that was during the construction period and industrial action. It's got better since then. Today it sits at 2,377th best out of 2,635 stations (https://www.ontimetrains.co.uk/stations/DOR).

Part of the reason for that is the number of Northern westbound trains held outside Sheffield to allow late running TPE services to pass. Well, well, was that not foreseen and planned for?

Yes it was, Page 24 of 43 in the Network Rail (Hope Valley Capacity Order) NR/POE/2.2 Proof of Evidence Design and construction 12 April 2016

"Track layout proposed after Hope Valley Capacity Scheme completed, highlighting the optional crossovers, without which Northern will lose important extra resilience when TPE and other crossing services run late, as they frequently do."

And they have. Local retired railwaymen with detailed managerial knowledge of operations, enthusiasts and rail users all pointed this out at the inquiry. The optional crossovers got axed to save money - they must also be saving on points failures.

Such is railway life. Spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar! But it's more than a ha'porth................. so there.

 

[ricoblade]

Possibly not the final update but I've been going through the mountain of paper and computer files I've amassed since the first public consultations in 2013, 2015 and the public inquiry in 2016.

Supposedly over £150m spent, but how much over I don't expect Network Rail or the government really knows. Where the early expenditure on planning since the late 1990s is now hidden so who can tell?

Whatever, all the paperwork I've still got tells a story - of surveys for bats, badgers, foxes, newts, owls, and every plant anywhere near the sites. Drainage, noise, air pollution, gradients, signalling, electricity supply, the list could get very long.

Meanwhile the Manchester Recovery Task Force found it necessary to send TPE's Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport service to Liverpool instead. Northern deployed 195s to replace Pacers on the stopping service allowing it to be stopped at all stations hourly from December 2022. Limestone no longer goes to Trent Valley power stations and coal no longer comes in from South Wales to feed the Hope Cement Works - but biomass occasionally gets routed this way from Liverpool to Drax. Passenger capacity is being provided by more 6 car trains operated by both TPE and EMR (although they haven't the stock to do much more).

Neither fast service operator has either rolling stock or crews to run an extra hourly fast service even if paths into and through Manchester and Sheffield could be found. They can't. So what was it all for? Increased reliability of all services. As a user I find that hard to see.

Parochially I judge things from Dore & Totley. Over the last 5 years Dore has consistently come within the worst 500 stations in the country for punctuality of trains, as have all the Hope Valley stations. Trying to be fair there was a short period when Dore came within the worst 25 in the OnTimeTrains listings, but that was during the construction period and industrial action. It's got better since then. Today it sits at 2,377th best out of 2,635 stations (https://www.ontimetrains.co.uk/stations/DOR).

Part of the reason for that is the number of Northern westbound trains held outside Sheffield to allow late running TPE services to pass. Well, well, was that not foreseen and planned for?

Yes it was, Page 24 of 43 in the Network Rail (Hope Valley Capacity Order) NR/POE/2.2 Proof of Evidence Design and construction 12 April 2016


And they have. Local retired railwaymen with detailed managerial knowledge of operations, enthusiasts and rail users all pointed this out at the inquiry. The optional crossovers got axed to save money - they must also be saving on points failures.

Such is railway life. Spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar! But it's more than a ha'porth................. so there.

View attachment 173524

Thanks for all this.

I just know that if I'm sat on a stopper at Platform 7 at Midland waiting to depart and the preceding TPE is late, we will be held or, less frequently, held in the Heeley Loop.

 

[Spartacus]

I deal with the area on a daily basis and it's much improved from an operational point of view, recovery is now excellent when it used to be dreadful.

If you put the westbound Northern stopper in platform 2 for a late TPE to pass what happens to the Eastbound EMR? That gets delayed! You're literally robbing Peter to pay Paul, and spending money to do so. That EMR will delay the westbound EMR into Sheffield (which will then delay any freight waiting on the curve at Dore), and the St Pancras service leaving Sheffield, which given they're so finely timed and integrated could delay anything down to Brighton.

 

[Killingworth]

I deal with the area on a daily basis and it's much improved from an operational point of view, recovery is now excellent when it used to be dreadful.

If you put the westbound Northern stopper in platform 2 for a late TPE to pass what happens to the Eastbound EMR? That gets delayed! You're literally robbing Peter to pay Paul, and spending money to do so. That EMR will delay the westbound EMR into Sheffield (which will then delay any freight waiting on the curve at Dore), and the St Pancras service leaving Sheffield, which given they're so finely timed and integrated could delay anything down to Brighton.

We need the 4 tracks back from Dore into Sheffield but that's no longer possible without moving lineside equipment, rebuilding removed bridges and demolishing a few properties. HS2 was to add a 3rd track and that seems to be in the draft plans for electrification - which may happen by 2035.

The EMR services now crossing around Dore & Totley with both Northern and TPE through the station is a positive outcome from the scheme. Previously that clash was the reason given for the EMR service not being able to stop at Dore to give a half hourly service into Sheffield. It's rather a sore point locally.

 

[Killingworth]

The scheme went live on 25th March 2024. The Dore South curve/loop/chord was supposed to have been completed by August 2023, landscaped in October 2023.Things don't always go to plan.

2 contrasting pictures, first the week before going live, work still in progress during blockade. Then a year later, today, with work still incomplete and little sign of activity. Flat dwellers who've had to endure being beside a work site and having to manage without much of their parking are getting fed up.

Service timekeeping has improved a little but Dore remains in the worst 500 stations nationally for punctuality https://www.ontimetrains.co.uk/stations/DOR Quite a lot of that is due to westbound stopping trains being pathed immediately behind TPE Cleethorpes - Liverpool services themselves often delayed before reaching Sheffield. Statistically this is a big improvement as there was a period when Dore featured in the worst 10.




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