Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[WestRiding]

No doubt the scheme will now be delayed even more. If only Sheffield was on an important bit of railway.

 

[Killingworth]

Actual Headway of 4 mins Up and 5 minutes Down and thats probably not the planning Headway which I would have thought be between 5 to 6 minutes.

Which is roughly what it is now so that remains a bottleneck that will be cited in future rather than Dore West Junction and the single line through Dore & Totley Station.

 

[Tomnick]

Which is roughly what it is now so that remains a bottleneck that will be cited in future rather than Dore West Junction and the single line through Dore & Totley Station.

The theoretical headway becomes less relevant when you consider the speed differential between a loaded freight train struggling away from Chinley East or out of Earles, with an express passenger bearing down on it at up to 90mph.

 

[Killingworth]

The theoretical headway becomes less relevant when you consider the speed differential between a loaded freight train struggling away from Chinley East or out of Earles, with an express passenger bearing down on it at up to 90mph.

Stick it in the Bamford loop, that's what it will be there for!

 

[8stewartt]

Stick it in the Bamford loop, that's what it will be there for!

Yes perfect solution! Let the 2550T freight get crawling and just as it picks speed up put it in a loop only for it to have to get going......again!

Much more benefit in actually letting it run with the gradients around Bamford & Grindleford.

 

[LowLevel]

Yes perfect solution! Let the 2550T freight get crawling and just as it picks speed up put it in a loop only for it to have to get going......again!

Much more benefit in actually letting it run with the gradients around Bamford & Grindleford.

Providing you can get it out at Dore. It is marvellous if your freight appears in it's booked path and all of the passenger services and other freights do the same but these trains are quite often poor runners, either losing time on the schedule or presenting late at the terminal. Having them pile up at Totley waiting to turn left or right stuffs the job up properly.

Thus the loop becomes useful for regulating because you can take into account the fact it needs to get up the hill into Bamford in your margin, in theory.

I think the nature of the route means it will never run smoothly all of the time (particularly with the speed restrictions in Cowburn and Totley tunnels at the moment) but more options help.

The loop at Earles on the down does come in useful for example.

 

[The Planner]

Which is roughly what it is now so that remains a bottleneck that will be cited in future rather than Dore West Junction and the single line through Dore & Totley Station.

The theoretical headway becomes less relevant when you consider the speed differential between a loaded freight train struggling away from Chinley East or out of Earles, with an express passenger bearing down on it at up to 90mph.

What is the latest signaling plan? I can see version 2.1. £10 says Totley tunnel gets planned as absolute block as it is now, it won't have a numerical value. In terms of following a freight, you would specify a specific planning headway to accommodate for that. At least the new Bamford loop has a flashing yellow on it, though I think the 50mph entry is probably overkill considering its length.

 

[Mollman]

What is the latest signaling plan? I can see version 2.1. £10 says Totley tunnel gets planned as absolute block as it is now, it won't have a numerical value. In terms of following a freight, you would specify a specific planning headway to accommodate for that. At least the new Bamford loop has a flashing yellow on it, though I think the 50mph entry is probably overkill considering its length.

Guessing the 50 is there to avoid it being approach controlled rather than the expected entry speed.

 

[Tomnick]

Stick it in the Bamford loop, that's what it will be there for!

You can do, but then by the time it's got under way again, it'll be way behind the express, again not really testing the theoretical headway. It'll be a useful hidey-hole, but I'm still not convinced of its value for routine regulating - by the time a freight's got from there to Dore, its intended margin could quite easily have been squeezed by a late departure from Sheffield. It really is crucial that there's room to stand a freight on Dore curve so that it can await a suitable margin if necessary (in either direction) without screwing up whatever's behind it. The only concern then is making sure that a loaded freight off the Hope Valley doesn't turn up at Dore at the same time as a set of empties in the opposite direction!

What is the latest signaling plan? I can see version 2.1. £10 says Totley tunnel gets planned as absolute block as it is now, it won't have a numerical value. In terms of following a freight, you would specify a specific planning headway to accommodate for that. At least the new Bamford loop has a flashing yellow on it, though I think the 50mph entry is probably overkill considering its length.

I don't know what the latest plan is, but I'd be surprised if they were going for stop signals inside the tunnel - so there's probably not much to be gained.

 

[The Planner]

Guessing the 50 is there to avoid it being approach controlled rather than the expected entry speed.

Shouldn't be as the flasher solves that, it will be 70/90MU there anyway so its greater than 10mph difference.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Headway is a useful concept on plain line with relatively close signals and large numbers of services at similar speeds. It is far less meaningful with a complex mix of faster passenger trains, stoppers and heavy freight diving on and off the route via flat junctions, single lines and passing through long tunnels which impose their own arbitrarily long blocks.

The Dore scheme will be great for capacity and performance in the immediate area of Sheffield but will still leave many issues on a very complex piece of route and services that have often had to travel many miles and passed through other bottlenecks to get there.

 

[The Planner]

I don't know what the latest plan is, but I'd be surprised if they were going for stop signals inside the tunnel - so there's probably not much to be gained.

There aren't any going in, an extra distant is going in the tunnel on the up though to make two. The block signal is moving 400m away from the tunnel exit towards Dore and also becomes the junction signal for the Dore curve, so you effectively lose a section.

 

[Killingworth]

The running times along the Hope valley aren't as big a problem as the level junctions. That may be an eastbound stone train needing to slowly cross the westbound passenger flow at Chinley East or a cement train from Hope crossing at Earles.

The stone train will usually be longer and heavier and will normally be routed down the Sheaf Valley and through Sheffield station to go anywhere. The difference in future will be that it can be pulled across from Chinley and wait at Bamford for a path through Sheffield, possibly 15-20 minutes nearer Dore West or Dore Station Junctions.

The cement trains from Earles have the option of crossing to go east and clear the westbound tracks, and waiting in the Bamford loop. That could be to allow a passenger service to pass, but it might also be playing leapfrog with a stone train! However, the biggest advantage for the cement services is that they'll be able to clear the route at Dore West and stand on the new Dore loop before going south on the Midland mainline. It should be noted that the line between Dore West and Dore South junctions, through Dore Tunnel, is a tight uphill bend into Bradway Tunnel and restricted to 15mph. An increase to 20mph after the work is complete will make little difference for a loaded train making a standing start as it drags across both tracks. Ideally it should be regulated so it doesn't have to stand. That's where the Bamford loop may be used, and better signalling co-ordination!

Once the stone train heading towards Sheffield has passed Bamford the next place it's likely to be held will still be at Dore Station Junction to join the mainline. If it can be regulated straight through there it's downhill to the Heeley loop before running through Sheffield.

In the documentation for the public inquiry there was an option for bi-directional working through Dore & Totley station. It seems that was left in by mistake! If it was included the stone train could run further and pause in the station for a path into Sheffield. Following passenger trains would be able to use the opposite track to overtake. Such bi-directional working might also allow a Northern stopping service to work up to Dore and wait to be overtaken there by the frequently late running TPE service, rather than waiting in the Heeley loop for the TPE to go by! Sadly that option died years ago.

 

[WestRiding]

So...... Can anybody actually confirm what the ACTUAL plans are for the Signalling aspect of it all this week?

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this post is to discuss the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme

We absolutely do welcome ideas/suggestions from forum members, but we do ask that these are posted exclusively in the Speculative Ideas section please

Some posts have been moved to:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/alternative-route-for-freight-trains-to-avoid-the-congested-hope-valley.210741/

 

[Killingworth]

Thees three pictures may give an idea of how the Dore loop/chord will fit into the current landscape. The first is today, then how it may look on completion of the work in 3 years time, and then how it might look a few years later when the landscaping has grown. It will stretch from this point back to Dore West Junction, taking a slice of land below the oak wood. It isn't taking any part of the ancient woodland higher up the hillside.

 

[WestRiding]

Turns out that the signalling will 'apparently' be done from Sheffield WS at York, though the Ergonomics people are not particularly supportive of it.

 

[Geeves]

The various options considered at Dore

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/186410/response/461931/attach/2/Dore%20Grindleford%20briefing%20documentation%20for%20discussion%2010%2005%2012.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

 

[Philip]

Why isn't 'the old road' via Beighton and Renishaw used more often for long cement trains off the Hope Valley needing to access the southbound MML? Can long freight trains not just be routed this way instead if there is danger of them overhanging Dore South Curve?

 

[Bald Rick]

Why isn't 'the old road' via Beighton and Renishaw used more often for long cement trains off the Hope Valley needing to access the southbound MML? Can long freight trains not just be routed this way instead if there is danger of them overhanging Dore South Curve?

If overhanging Dore South curve is undesirable, locking up Sheffield station is abhorrent!

 

[Philip]

If overhanging Dore South curve is undesirable, locking up Sheffield station is abhorrent!

How would they lock up Sheffield? They can use the through road and either take the line via Woodhouse to Beighton Junction or run to Brightside/Meadowhall and take the freight line to access the old road at Treeton Junction.

 

[Tomnick]

How would they lock up Sheffield? They can use the through road and either take the line via Woodhouse to Beighton Junction or run to Brightside/Meadowhall and take the freight line to access the old road at Treeton Junction.

They’d need a suitable margin to run right through the station and up towards Woodburn in one go. They’re too long to stand inside clear in the station itself or between there and Nunnery ML Jn. Given how busy the north end of the station is, and the steep gradient up out of the cutting, it’s really asking for trouble.

(The other bit of railway, to Treeton Jn, no longer exists)

 

[WestRiding]

How would they lock up Sheffield? They can use the through road and either take the line via Woodhouse to Beighton Junction or run to Brightside/Meadowhall and take the freight line to access the old road at Treeton Junction.

The Through Line is useless as it exits into an already busy Platform 1b, its not a true Through Line. You cannot get from Brightside to the Old Road, it shut Yonks ago. Its hard enough getting Freights through Sheffield Station without encouraging more of them. Its not easy turning right in Nunnery Jn towards Woodburn etc because its approach control signal, bringing freights to a near stand, and then an extremely steep gradient towards Woodburn. Its defeated a few freights from a standing start over the years. Its also not like we can stand freight at Sheffield as none of them fit in the North Bound platforms. We can't stand them for long at Sheffield South either due to the amount of trains now using platforms 7 and 8 from the South.

 

[Killingworth]

Why isn't 'the old road' via Beighton and Renishaw used more often for long cement trains off the Hope Valley needing to access the southbound MML? Can long freight trains not just be routed this way instead if there is danger of them overhanging Dore South Curve?

Curreny all cement and stone trains will overhang the Dore loop/chord if they can't run straight through to or from the MML

Once the scheme is complete that will remain the case for the longer stone trains as they won't fit on the longer loop.

This is where signalling from Hope to Dore West being controlled from York and the east should. in theory, improve performance. Currently the break is immediately to the west of Dore West Junction with control from Manchester.

 

[WestRiding]

Curreny all cement and stone trains will overhang the Dore loop/chord if they can't run straight through to or from the MML

Once the scheme is complete that will remain the case for the longer stone trains as they won't fit on the longer loop.

This is where signalling from Hope to Dore West being controlled from York and the east should. in theory, improve performance. Currently the break is immediately to the west of Dore West Junction with control from Manchester.

Yep, Sheffield WS, we currently fringe to Totley SB. Absolute Block to Grindleford to Earles. The first we know of a train coming is when it Tracks in at Grindleford. Not much notice for Sheffield to do much with a late train. The loop at Bamford will be brilliant, especially if Passenger trains can use it too, ie, the late Hope Valley stoppers.

 

[Jozhua]

Thees three pictures may give an idea of how the Dore loop/chord will fit into the current landscape. The first is today, then how it may look on completion of the work in 3 years time, and then how it might look a few years later when the landscaping has grown. It will stretch from this point back to Dore West Junction, taking a slice of land below the oak wood. It isn't taking any part of the ancient woodland higher up the hillside.

View attachment 85206


View attachment 85204

View attachment 85208

Looks fantastic, thanks for sharing!

 

[Senex]

Its not easy turning right in Nunnery Jn towards Woodburn etc because its approach control signal, bringing freights to a near stand, and then an extremely steep gradient towards Woodburn.

That's a surprise! Why is there approach control there? From memory, the 15-mph restriction out of the station ends at or just after 158¾ miles and Nunnery Main Line Jn is a little before 159 miles with a 25-mph divergence. Could anything actually be approaching the turnout too fast? Or is it just that because line-speed at that point is 70 and the divergence is 25, there has to be approach control even if nothing could be anywhere near line-speed?

 

[Killingworth]

Yep, Sheffield WS, we currently fringe to Totley SB. Absolute Block to Grindleford to Earles. The first we know of a train coming is when it Tracks in at Grindleford. Not much notice for Sheffield to do much with a late train. The loop at Bamford will be brilliant, especially if Passenger trains can use it too, ie, the late Hope Valley stoppers.

Late HV stoppers can have been delayed leaving Piccadilly by another service ahead of it blocking it from leaving the same platform, Northern or TPE. Other times they may be held after New Mills to allow a late running EMR Liverpool-Norwich through. The option of the Bamford loop should allow an occasional stopper to get further before having to give way but it's not expected to be a regular feature - practice may prove that wrong!

Eastbound services are often impacted by knock on effects of Manchester congestion but the scheme will give negligible help with that.

TPE South Pennine westbound services from Cleethorpes are often held up getting through to Sheffield. As the stopper follows 3 minutes behind it's inevitably held up as well, either in the platform or the Heeley loop. It may then get held again at Dore Station Junction for a path across the MML to the Hope Valley. The passenger traffic congestion around Sheffield will not be significantly eased by the Scheme.

However, clearing Dore West, Dore South and Dore Station Junctions from slow moving, long and heavy cement and stone trains is what it's all about. Working near the junctions today I noted a traffic jam building up as a loaded stone train crawled round the corner to go south with at least three passenger trains being held to allow it across.

Geeves post 530 is very interesting. The eastbound loop was to be at Grindleford but it was to take National Trust inalienable land and they were prepared to resist sale by going to Parliament. Network Rail then discovered the land wasn't suitable anyway due to the need for embankments, cuttings and bridge work. Other options were considered and Bamford was the one selected. It's further back from Dore West and on a rising gradient, so once a heavy stone train gets moving it will still take a little time to get to the MML, be it going north through Sheffield or south through Chesterfield. That reduces the benefit.

At some point another option was included, to make both tracks from the new Dore West junction to Dore Station Junction (through Dore & Totley station) bi-directional. It appears in one of the plans produced in the evidence for the public inquiry but is not referred to in the narrative and has not been referred to since. That would have allowed an eastbound stone service to wait for a path through Sheffield while a passenger service passed. It would also allow a Northern service to go forward to Dore, clearing the MML, and be overtaken by a delayed TPE service.

Of course the elephant on the tracks is Totley Tunnel and its 6 minute headway! And Cowburn Tunnel to a lesser degree.

 

[HSTEd]

Why does Totley tunnel have to have a six minute headway?

Is there some restriction on the tunnel that prevents signal blocks being inside it?

 

[The Planner]

Why does Totley tunnel have to have a six minute headway?

Is there some restriction on the tunnel that prevents signal blocks being inside it?

How many long tunnels have signals capable of showing red aspects within? I know Kilsby does, Severn Tunnel doesn't, Disley doesn't (I believe it is a repeater/distant on the down main inside the tunnel), Standedge doesn't (again a repeater/distant on the down and on the up), Chipping Sodbury?