How are "drop off (or pick up) only" station stops enforced?

[Horizon22]

To answer the question - generally good will and via customer information not displaying the stop (in whichever relevant destination). There is some more heavy-handed enforcement at some stations (like Watford Junction) and those in the know will clock onto it, but for the majority of passengers it's a useful way to avoid crowding out the longer distance customers from busy stations whilst those doing short journeys have a - albeit slightly slower - alternative.

 

[Edsmith]

I suppose its to stop long distance trains getting filled with short-hop commuters. That said, I've gone from Clapham Junction to Waterloo on a fast train from platform 7 plenty of times. It is advertised to Waterloo, but I still get some puzzled looks from station staff or the guards of the 159 or whatever that has set down on the platform as I board, as usually I'm the only one waiting other than another brave passenger. On the way back from Waterloo the Clapham Junction stop isn't advertised, so I'm not sure what would happen if you got on a train at Waterloo that was booked to pick up at CLJ without a valid ticket for stations south of there.

I don't think it matters about getting on a Waterloo bound train on platform 7 at Clapham Junction, I think the restrictions are more intended for the other direction so that an Exeter train for example doesn't get filled with short distance passengers. Many staff don't bother anyway, I overheard a passenger asking if an Exeter train was calling at Woking (first advertised stop Basingstoke) and platform staff assured him that if was.

 

[enginedin]

Also avoids the need for rail replacement buses if the train is diverted because of engineering work.

But a customer could buy an on-the-day ticket for a bus-replacement journey that was departing imminently, so if they were going to a drop-off only station the TOC would still need to have planned a bus replacement to it

"Set downs" are sometimes used on late night trains to avoid having to wait at stations if the train is ahead if schedule. The 2300 London to York is an example. It often arrives in York early.

Every intermediate station is drop-off only! https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G23518/2023-10-11

I wonder if that's the only example of a journey like that...

 

[Edsmith]

But a customer could buy an on-the-day ticket for a bus-replacement journey that was departing imminently, so if they were going to a drop-off only station the TOC would still need to have planned a bus replacement to it


Every intermediate station is drop-off only! https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G23518/2023-10-11

I wonder if that's the only example of a journey like that...

Basically a rail replacement bus will only go to the station if someone on board wants to go there.

 

[greyman42]

But a customer could buy an on-the-day ticket for a bus-replacement journey that was departing imminently, so if they were going to a drop-off only station the TOC would still need to have planned a bus replacement to it


Every intermediate station is drop-off only! https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G23518/2023-10-11

I wonder if that's the only example of a journey like that...

The 2330 Kings Cross to Leeds is the same.

 

[enginedin]

Basically a rail replacement bus will only go to the station if someone on board wants to go there.

I agree, but I don't understand why it will avoid the need for a rail-replacement bus. Surely the TOCs need to anticipate that a passenger will turn up and buy an on-the-day ticket, so they need to plan that every station will be served by a replacement bus service?

 

[JordR]

I agree, but I don't understand why it will avoid the need for a rail-replacement bus. Surely the TOCs need to anticipate that a passenger will turn up and buy an on-the-day ticket, so they need to plan that every station will be served by a replacement bus service?

Until the last train of the day that picks up at that station, I suppose so. You wouldn't need to account for stations served by a drop off only service when running a replacement bus and could omit them entirely if no one on the bus wants to actually stop there.

 

[Lg_]

Totally coincidentally, I'm currently on a service this has just occurred on:

Realtime Trains | 1S75 1610 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh | 17/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 1S75 1610 departure from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh on 17/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Bolton wasn't advertised as a stopping place at MAN or on the train, but we did just stop there with RTT showing it to "pick up passengers only" - on a sunday afternoon, this isn't to stop commuters doing a short hop

The TPE services don't get any of the revenue from the Bolton-Manchester passengers on this route any ticket revenue historically went to Northern. Hence the pick up/set down only rule.

Appreciate with the way the system is now run with all revenue going to the DfT and that TPE and Northern being DOHL companies it's less relevant.

 

[Kite159]

I agree, but I don't understand why it will avoid the need for a rail-replacement bus. Surely the TOCs need to anticipate that a passenger will turn up and buy an on-the-day ticket, so they need to plan that every station will be served by a replacement bus service?

Using say the 2210 London Victoria to Dover Priory for example (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L74044/2023-10-05/detailed)

If for example the line between Canterbury East & Dover is closed late night and that service gets replaced by a bus. Said bus will only have to run to the stations which have passengers for to reduce the overall journey time (no need to divert down little country lanes to serve X if nobody on the bus wants X). Due to that service being "Set down" only, there won't be anybody at X wanting the train

I've had similar countless times when the last Waterloo - Salisbury train has been replaced by a bus after Basingstoke. If nobody on board the bus wants Overton or Whitchurch the bus can skip those stations and stay on the main road (or even in an extreme case go direct to Andover on the A303)

----

Also for those long distance services, they might be timed to be slow due to potential engineering works so can run early if said allowances are not needed. Or in the case of the WCML the stops are down as set-down only so if the train can't serve those stations (i.e. Lichfield/Tamworth if slow lines are closed) they only have to run a bus if there is any requirement.

 

[Trainguy34]

Using say the 2210 London Victoria to Dover Priory for example (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L74044/2023-10-05/detailed)

If for example the line between Canterbury East & Dover is closed late night and that service gets replaced by a bus. Said bus will only have to run to the stations which have passengers for to reduce the overall journey time (no need to divert down little country lanes to serve X if nobody on the bus wants X). Due to that service being "Set down" only, there won't be anybody at X wanting the train.

I remember a couple of years ago a bus on this line, when leaving Adisham, the driver asked if anyone wanted Snowdown and if not they would run non-stop to Shepherdswell, even though it wasn't set down only. Suffice to say I complained to Southeastern and the bus operator, don't remember getting a response unfortunately.

 

[Sultan]

I don't think it matters about getting on a Waterloo bound train on platform 7 at Clapham Junction, I think the restrictions are more intended for the other direction so that an Exeter train for example doesn't get filled with short distance passengers. Many staff don't bother anyway, I overheard a passenger asking if an Exeter train was calling at Woking (first advertised stop Basingstoke) and platform staff assured him that if was.

Interesting as I'd never previously known that about Woking - (Clapham Junction, yes) from Waterloo (my irregular commute).

I've just looked at today's departures (I use the app Railboard and assume it picks its data up from the usual centralised source) and the 16:20 to Exeter from Waterloo does call at Woking but if I search with it for services from Waterloo calling at Woking, it doesn't come up (but many others do, including the 16:20 stopping service that terminates at Woking). It does come up if I search Woking to Exeter (as 16:46). So it seems that even the journey planner may be pushing travellers from Waterloo to Woking to not use the 16.20 fast service. But having many years ago assumed that the same service called at Woking yet it sailed through ending up at Basingstoke, I wouldn't take the chance.

 

[mangyiscute]

Interesting as I'd never previously known that about Woking - (Clapham Junction, yes) from Waterloo (my irregular commute).

I've just looked at today's departures (I use the app Railboard and assume it picks its data up from the usual centralised source) and the 16:20 to Exeter from Waterloo does call at Woking but if I search with it for services from Waterloo calling at Woking, it doesn't come up (but many others do, including the 16:20 stopping service that terminates at Woking). It does come up if I search Woking to Exeter (as 16:46). So it seems that even the journey planner may be pushing travellers from Waterloo to Woking to not use the 16.20 fast service. But having many years ago assumed that the same service called at Woking yet it sailed through ending up at Basingstoke, I wouldn't take the chance.

Yeah you always take the risk that the train planners will for whatever reason cancel that stop, since they can assume that there are no passengers trying to alight there, and then you are in a bit of a pickle - I've heard stories of Paddington to Reading travellers ending up in Taunton!

 

[30907]

Yeah you always take the risk that the train planners will for whatever reason cancel that stop, since they can assume that there are no passengers trying to alight there, and then you are in a bit of a pickle - I've heard stories of Paddington to Reading travellers ending up in Taunton!

Allegedly that has been done with intent - possibly with excess fares to boot.

 

[Edsmith]

Interesting as I'd never previously known that about Woking - (Clapham Junction, yes) from Waterloo (my irregular commute).

I've just looked at today's departures (I use the app Railboard and assume it picks its data up from the usual centralised source) and the 16:20 to Exeter from Waterloo does call at Woking but if I search with it for services from Waterloo calling at Woking, it doesn't come up (but many others do, including the 16:20 stopping service that terminates at Woking). It does come up if I search Woking to Exeter (as 16:46). So it seems that even the journey planner may be pushing travellers from Waterloo to Woking to not use the 16.20 fast service. But having many years ago assumed that the same service called at Woking yet it sailed through ending up at Basingstoke, I wouldn't take the chance.

Yes the 16.20 from Waterloo is advertised fast to Basingstoke but does call at CJ and Woking to pick up.

 

[sjm77]

I remember a few years ago XC introduced a pick up only at Wakefield Westgate on an Edinburgh - Plymouth service that left Leeds ~17:00. Obviously it was to prevent commuters flooding the service just to travel from Leeds to Wakefield. I always thought this unfair because an elderly person traveling with heavy luggage from say, Edinburgh to Wakefield was supposed to change trains at Leeds even though the train they were on already was stopping there anyway!

 

[greyman42]

I remember a few years ago XC introduced a pick up only at Wakefield Westgate on an Edinburgh - Plymouth service that left Leeds ~17:00. Obviously it was to prevent commuters flooding the service just to travel from Leeds to Wakefield. I always thought this unfair because an elderly person traveling with heavy luggage from say, Edinburgh to Wakefield was supposed to change trains at Leeds even though the train they were on already was stopping there anyway!

Yes, that is daft. You would think that passengers boarding prior to Leeds would be told to stop on the train.

 

[Kite159]

..

Yes, that is daft. You would think that passengers boarding prior to Leeds would be told to stop on the train.

Indeed and the call at Wakefield simply not advertised at Leeds, if such a thing is possible. Although won't stop those 'in the know' boarding it, unless a Northern service to say Knottingley is run a couple minutes in front (or even a peak time extra Leeds - Castleford via Wakefield, advertised as Normanton via Wakefield Westgate) to soak up the Wakefield commuters (whilst giving Normanton another train)

 

[Krokodil]

The TPE services don't get any of the revenue from the Bolton-Manchester passengers on this route any ticket revenue historically went to Northern. Hence the pick up/set down only rule.

They would get a cut of the revenue if they called.

 

[30907]

Yes, that is daft. You would think that passengers boarding prior to Leeds would be told to stop on the train.

Maybe they were - the problem would be that you couldn't produce an itinerary without the change at Leeds.

Indeed and the call at Wakefield simply not advertised at Leeds, if such a thing is possible. Although won't stop those 'in the know' boarding it, unless a Northern service to say Knottingley is run a couple minutes in front (or even a peak time extra Leeds - Castleford via Wakefield, advertised as Normanton via Wakefield Westgate) to soak up the Wakefield commuters (whilst giving Normanton another train)

An extra train is a nice idea, but costs money
The ××15 London is there to hoover up the crowds, but people don't like waiting.
It was not an issue when the Londons were ××05 and the XC followed, but you can't design a timetable round such a local issue

 

[markymark2000]

Surely you could do it but I don't know whether it would be approved as it would mean promoting different services on journey planners versus what Network Rail has. What you do is have the normal service but have it as set down only at Leeds. Then you need a new service from Leeds which 'misses' Wakefield and then runs set down only at all onward stops. I don't know if any journey planners specifically show set down only though as that could cause some confusion there. I know it's buses but National Express do the exact same on their advertising. See this on bustimes. https://bustimes.org/services/409-london-aberystwyth-university. It's only 1 bus journey that operates but because of rules around local passengers, they have it advertised as lots of different trips. Surely the railways couldn't do the same.

 

[greyman42]

Maybe they were - the problem would be that you couldn't produce an itinerary without the change at Leeds.

Why would you need an itinerary?

 

[mangyiscute]

Why would you need an itinerary?

most people will just travel to whatever itinerary they've booked, and therefore won't attempt to take this train to wakefield. Also, for advance tickets, you wouldn't be able to book an advance ticket from say Newcastle to Wakefield without it saying to change trains in Leeds, which means you couldn't legally take the train through to Wakefield

 

[JackTheLad]

I don't think it matters about getting on a Waterloo bound train on platform 7 at Clapham Junction, I think the restrictions are more intended for the other direction so that an Exeter train for example doesn't get filled with short distance passengers. Many staff don't bother anyway, I overheard a passenger asking if an Exeter train was calling at Woking (first advertised stop Basingstoke) and platform staff assured him that if was.

I often board trains at Waterloo when going to Woking that don't have Woking listed as a stop and is pick up only. Not only is a 159 much more comfortable than a 450, in my experience I am much more likely to get a seat than I would on a Portsmouth, Southampton, or Bournemouth train. The other evening the Exeter and Portsmouth Harbour trains were on adjacent platforms and not only was the Portsmouth train departing 10 minutes after the Exeter, it only had 4 cars and was already heaving a couple of minutes before the Exeter train was leaving so it was a no brainer to jump on the 159 which had plenty of seats. I have had my ticket checked on them plenty of times and it's never been an issue and plenty of people still seem to get off a pick up only train at Woking anyway.

 

[johntea]

Interesting LNER situation at Harrogate today

The 17:16 Northern to Leeds was cancelled so the guard on the 17:36 to Kings Cross specifically announced over the tannoy they had been asked by a few passengers and it was fine for anyone alighting at Horsforth to board rather than having to wait for the 17:46 Northern (in the end a good decision as that service ended up departing 9 minutes late!)

On the flip side other guards have stated the opposite previously in that Horsforth passengers should not board as it is a pick up only

To be honest it seems a pretty pointless 'restriction' on the route anyway