How can the industry lower its costs?

[yorksrob]

I think that the issue here is that I may be willing to plan a trip to London in advance, maybe even *because* I can get a bargainous advance ticket (like booking a holiday months in advance)- and accept the restriction to a specific train...

...but I'm a lot less likely to restrict myself for a journey of only an hour or so (e.g. Sheffield to Manchester/ Leeds).

I don't know where the "boundary" is or what it'd take to get me to restrict myself to a specific train on a shorter journey (I can't really get as excited about saving just a couple of quid compared to a longer journey), but you raise an interesting point.
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Good point - people get very excited about passenger numbers without considering the cost of those passengers

Yes, I suspect restricting to individual trains might be a bridge too far (although TPE don't seem to have much difficulty over their core routes). However, there might be scope for more creative pricing in terms of peak and off peak travel times. Thinking of routes North and East of Leeds, for example, there seems to be a fair amount of spare capacity.

 

[hawaii2468]

However, more passengers can bring some potential benefits such as advertisement in trains or stations, more business to the station cafes or shops, less CO2 emission, less traffic conjestion, lesson toxic emission etc etc
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And what is the point of reducing cost but couldn't bring actual benefits?

 

[Metroland]

More passengers does bring down costs to a point, should you be filling empty seats. However, the railway has been a victim of it's own success, as at some stage you need to run more trains, therefore cancelling out some of the previous efficiency gains in terms of train crew and train set utilisation.

However, if lines are better utilised, that will bring efficiencies in terms of overall unit maintenance costs, utilisation of non-train crew staff such as those on stations and signallers.

I dread to think of the cost of some of the lines where mechanical signalling still exists, with signallers doing nothing for 50 mins out of an hour with a box every few miles. Abolishing this sort of equipment should have been an early priority for the privatised railway as should have been developing low cost signalling systems for secondary and rural line - ironically something BR did quite well. This is only just starting to happen.

Something the railway press, especially modern railways, have got entirely wrong is blaming things like speed for inefficiency. The truth is it's the slow trains on branch lines trundling up and down are the most energy (per passenger) and are the most cost inefficient. Not the fast trains, where you get better stock and crew utilisation, and shorter journey times attract people out of cars, coaches and planes onto the railway meaning you get a better load factor and make more money. The East and West coat main lines are the biggest earner per passenger the railway and some of the biggest revenue earners in the industry.

Yet all to often the private railway has sought to increase padding in timetables, which extends journey times, to avoid penalties which don't exist for competing forms of transport. So you get the Government spending millions on improving the A46 between Leicester and Lincoln, the the rail service has extremely padded times (including sits of 20 mins or more at Nottingham) which surely reduces the attractiveness of rail, and decreases stock and crew utilisation.

The biggest cost in rail is not fuel, or track, or the trains themselves, it tends to be staff.

For those that worked on the railway from the transition between BR and the private railway, there was a massive increase in middle management.

Most other businesses have tried to reduce management count, often they are an expensive luxury. Always in a business, one of the key things is to ask 'what does this role bring to my organisation in terms of generating extra revenue?'. Many of these managers are on fact finding missions or doing admin work. Other staff could easily be doing these roles, or telling you if there was correct communication. Instead the railway often proceeds down a 19th century them v us culture, that costs money in the long run.

With such high wages being paid in the industry, in theory there should be no problems attracting the brightest and the best. So you would think there would be no issues with people having more skills. In fact the opposite often happens, either because the industry has been broken up, or managers simply do not trust people who are often 40-70k per year with overtime to do a good job. When things go wrong, the solution is always to bring more managers in, when for the wage levels the railway are paying the staff, they should be telling you managers what is going wrong and writing the reports themselves, and other managers should be listening.

Unlike most other business the railway does not seem to want to multi-skill staff, or professionalise roles (see above). So you have perverse situations where there was a points failure, and previously station staff could wind points, now the railway was employing extra people to do this role. Conversely, when stations were short of dispatch staff, and trains were leaving late, the incident staff were sat with their legs up reading the paper! Meanwhile the driver is sat in the cab, where quite honestly there is no reason he cannot work under signallers instructions to wind and clamp points to get things moving.

Opportunities have been entirely missed. Why are separate ticket office staff still employed, when shops on stations can sell tickets, or outside industry can offer these services? There are many other roles that have a questionable existence, or could be done by other parties at lower costs.

The list goes on and on, it's telling the railway of 1900 that run on paper, steam, oodles of staff and far more complexity, as well as requiring more maintenance made profit and the so-called super streamlined plastic railway of today despite far less staff and far more technology barely covers its costs.

 

[alexjames]

The above is an excellent analysis.

More please

 

[the sniper]

Opportunities have been entirely missed. Why are separate ticket office staff still employed, when shops on stations can sell tickets, or outside industry can offer these services? There are many other roles that have a questionable existence, or could be done by other parties at lower costs.

I'm only bemused my this point. The staff at the station WHSmith or Burger King should be selling the tickets at major stations, rather than having booking offices?

Given how long the queues are at both the ticket offices and Smiths/BK/Upper Crusts at most applicable stations, I don't see how this could possibly work. Would I have to wait behind the old dear in the queue at Smiths, waiting to buy a magazine, while she tried to book tickets for a trip more complicated than an enthusiast on an ALR? Would the part time, minimum wage earning Uni student behind the counter at Costa Coffee have to have The Manual with them just in case a customer asked which trains a Group Save 3 would be valid on between Birmingham New Street and Stafford?

I don't know whether it was intended, but you seem to be completely disregarding the knowledge base and training required to be a good booking office clerk, particularly at a major station. Given how widely booking office staff are still employed around the world, it would seem that railway management and railway users widely give more respect to the grade than you.

 

[Metroland]

Most tickets are now sold through self-service machines and across the internet, the point is sale of tickets is exactly the sort of area that the private sector does well at and there are numerous ways this can be done without sticking the the old-fashioned model, which is also subject to queues itself. There may well be a place for human contact and knowledge, this could be done by travel agents either on or off the stations? Conversely, why are booking office staff restricted to selling railway tickets? Why not other things such as airline, bus and other tickets?

Why have tickets at all in some cases, and hasn't the railway been moving in this direction for some time?

The point is with a bit of flexibility and imagination you can get productivity up and cut costs dramatically AND improve the customer experience. The railway is held back by restrictive union and management practices in many cases, which is sometimes not necessarily of its own making.

 

[Clip]

At major stations you may have a point of sorts,those folk in the currency exchange could do with being a bit busier at times. Indeed we are moving away from people buying tickets at the counter but the queues are still long enough to justify having booking offices.

Until that mindset moves away from queuing then they will stay.

 

[Metroland]

The point is it is another option, when you are queuing for a newspaper or chocolate bar you could pick up a selected range of tickets to popular destinations. Many retail establishments on the high street have had to diversify in order to survive, likewise in order to save booking offices, the grade should be restructured and parts of what it does diversified into outside industry.

As I pointed out there is still a place for booking offices, but these could be skilled at selling tickets and other things as well as giving advice, rather like a travel agent.

In short I am talking about upping the skills of all staff, and giving them a greater say in the running of the railways. So I am very bemused at the idea of having little respect, quite the opposite, I want to see people seen as respected professionals, highly skilled with transferable skills. The train driver like an airline captain, the signaller like an air traffic controller (why is there a separate control grade for example?) and retail staff marketing professionals rather than 'min wage uni students' which was never mentioned. We're still in the mindset in many cases of the old fashioned grade structures of 50 years ago, when labour was cheap.

 

[Goatboy]

At my local cinema you purchase tickets at the food vending area now. Which I guess is a similar concept.

 

[blacknight]

Yet all to often the private railway has sought to increase padding in timetables, which extends journey times, to avoid penalties which don't exist for competing forms of transport. So you get the Government spending millions on improving the A46 between Leicester and Lincoln, the the rail service has extremely padded times (including sits of 20 mins or more at Nottingham) which surely reduces the attractiveness of rail, and decreases stock and crew utilisation.

The biggest cost in rail is not fuel, or track, or the trains themselves, it tends to be staff.

With such high wages being paid in the industry, in theory there should be no problems attracting the brightest and the best. So you would think there would be no issues with people having more skills. In fact the opposite often happens, either because the industry has been broken up, or managers simply do not trust people who are often 40-70k per year with overtime to do a good job. When things go wrong, the solution is always to bring more managers in, when for the wage levels the railway are paying the staff, they should be telling you managers what is going wrong and writing the reports themselves, and other managers should be listening..

Just for the record can I point out:- Personally I would love to be earning 40-70k but for the record staff do write there own reports on incidents.
What drug do you have that will make management act on reports they receive from staff? & how can I get hold of it.
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Opportunities have been entirely missed. Why are separate ticket office staff still employed, when shops on stations can sell tickets, or outside industry can offer these services? There are many other roles that have a questionable existence, or could be done by other parties at lower costs.

Look forward to first person saying couldn't buy ticket at station as person in front was buying latte Think you will find at some small stations staff do multi task between ticket office & platforms
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At my local cinema you purchase tickets at the food vending area now. Which I guess is a similar concept.

Think you will find that ticketing knowledge for cinema is much more simple than rail tickets

 

[Metroland]

What drug do you have that will make management act on reports they receive from staff?

I'd agree that there is a mindset there of that. A lot of Victorian practices go on throughout British industry, dating from a time where many workers were barely literate. These days A levels and degrees are fast becoming 'the norm'. People can think for themselves, they do not need constant supervision.

It never ceases to amaze me just have many companies love inserting managers, without thinking what they are trying to achieve, not just on the railways. But the railways are some of the worse examples of them v us. The most progressive companies have the least problems in these areas, they are seen as 'Good to work for' as they empower and respect all personnel who are the key asset of any company.

The more management = more inefficiency. It's not to say you don't need leadership, but if the workforce are skilled they can and should be trusted, not micromanaged. Micromanagement is extremely expensive and often counter productive, and it goes on within the railways from DFT level down to the platform.

It always used to amuse me in the signalling grade, people were trusted to run small signalboxes, even quite large panels in some cases. But the really big places had supervisors, despite having the cream of the crop of people there!

 

[blacknight]

I'd agree that there is a mindset there of that. A lot of Victorian practices go on throughout British industry, dating from a time where many workers were barely literate. These days A levels and degrees are fast becoming 'the norm'. People can think for themselves, they do not need constant supervision.

IMO & with a secondary modern education thats where the problem is-conception that you have been to uni to do the job bit like nursing when a vocation is needed not 3 years at uni then wonder why care seems to have gone.
When you see management being drafted in from outside & wonder what they actually know about running railways.

 

[hawaii2468]

maybe more contactless payment cards machines should be introduced, I think one in each station/ exit is enough and that saves time, paper and money.

 

[AlexS]

There's already an element of the 'ticket/shop' combination in place at Merseyrail stations and it seems to work pretty well. Whether it would work elsewhere I don't know but for small to medium stations it seems like quite a good and innovative solution, maintaining a booking office through the shop where previously it might not have been financially viable - possibly one for the West Midlands and other similarly urban areas well populated with ticket offices.

It is very true that staffing is the biggest cost of any business and staff are often under utilised on the railway. Maintenance staff etc seem to do pretty well and are kept roundly busy, particularly the 'man in a van' and technical riding inspectors who go out to traction faults on the hoof.

It's also not sustainable to retain mechanical signalling for very much longer - a line like the Ormskirk to Preston branch, with only a few trains a day, having the staffing costs that it does is ridiculous when it could be added to a workstation elsewhere with barely a thought required to keep the branch unit pinging up and down quite safely.

Station staff could also be better utilised at times - I work for a TOC that's already undergone much rationalisation in this area and we manage quite well. The old BR system of inspectors, chargemen, railmen etc has gone. We now have a pool of around 12 staff give or take to allow for vacancies, who share 'person in charge' duties, running a pair of platforms, keeping an eye on how cleaning is being done, performing security checks, acting as fire warden, train dispatch, keeping an eye on faults and so forth, 50% of the time, and the other 50% of the time perform 'passenger assistance' duties, helping disabled passengers, answering enquiries and assisting with dispatch of slam door rolling stock, or dispatch if 2 trains need to depart at the same time from adjacent platforms. As a general rule at busy periods you have 2 people covering 2 platforms, with 1 person covering both platforms at quieter periods (first thing and in the evening). On Sunday mornings we cover all 4 platforms for a period.

We can also cover the ticket gateline, station information desk, and first class lounge if required (although this is out of grade working, so can cost the company more as we are higher grade staff than the normal staff in these functions). Some of us also sign other stations for dispatch and gateline in the local area so you can be moved out to them if necessary.

Effectively you have 3 grades of staff - the gateline, first lounge and info staff who aren't safety critical, the platform staff, who are, and the station supervisors, who also are. Working down the grade system everyone can cover the lower grade jobs, so platform staff can cover gateline etc, and supervisors can cover for platform staff and gateline. Some of the gateline staff sign for Avantix ticket machines so can relieve the booking office when it's busy and sell tickets to people exiting from local services.

 

[HH]

maybe more contactless payment cards machines should be introduced, I think one in each station/ exit is enough and that saves time, paper and money.

They will be; these things take time and cost money. Over time the way tickets are sold has changed, and will change further. Regarding sales by shops, this is only applicable for a few stations; some are too big and this would reduce efficiency, not improve it; some are too small and don't have any shops, or only a newsagent/coffee shop open for the early morning commuters. It's not the panacea to cure ticket sales issues.

I can't say that I've seen a plethora of new management positions in TOCs since privatisation. Increases in frontline staff have been far larger, and I'm talking in % terms here, not absolute.

What is true is that the way that the railway was set up, with money-go-rounds between DfT/NR/TOC creates posts which add little benefit to the rail industry as a whole. Unless DfT/ORR change the model though, these posts are entirely necessary for each organisation, although Alliancing could help.

 

[Metroland]

IMO & with a secondary modern education thats where the problem is-conception that you have been to uni to do the job bit like nursing when a vocation is needed not 3 years at uni then wonder why care seems to have gone.
When you see management being drafted in from outside & wonder what they actually know about running railways.

I tend to agree. What tends to happen is many companies (railway ones in particular because of past associations with military style command and control management) operate this kind of parent/child relationship with employees. You cannot motivate emotionally mature people by treating them as children, it never fails to amaze me that people think they gain respect and make other people want to work for a company by goading, prodding and monitoring people. Some people are of course attracted into 'management' for control reasons because they have emotional problems themselves.

Often this starts with parents, but as you point out schools re-enforce this, next thing you know you have people going through university who come out thinking they know how to manage people and are parachuted into areas they know nothing about, without having the experience or practical knowledge. Although there are also cases of people 'from the ranks' who get into management that do not really understand what the role is actually about, and try and re-enforce the 'parent/child' relationship.

Some managers presume their job is to police people and enforce some of of equilibrium and quash original thoughts, ideas and different ways of doing things rather than to engage with employees. Their job is to coach, encourage and uplift people to get the best of their talents to make the company efficient and a good place to work so you retain employees, not supress their human spirit and down-skill them to automaton level.

 

[NSEFAN]

It seems that being a good manager is like being a good entrepreneur. You either got it, or you ain't!

 

[Clip]

Sorry metroland and I don't know which toc you work for but your last few posts about management amd the plethora of them and micromanagement is tripe. At least it has been for the last 6 years and 2 tocs I've worked in in a management grade.
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In fact add to that most of the people people I know in other tocs would say the same too. Maybe its different round london to the rest of the country

 

[Metroland]

Sorry metroland and I don't know which toc you work for but your last few posts about management amd the plethora of them and micromanagement is tripe. At least it has been for the last 6 years and 2 tocs I've worked in in a management grade.
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In fact add to that most of the people people I know in other tocs would say the same too. Maybe its different round london to the rest of the country

Care to explain where there has been an increase in micromanagement (indeed there is now a government policy to cut this) and increases in the numbers of managers? The numbers speak for themselves.

Some of it of course is to manage all the interfaces after privatisation. Rather than inject competition, all that has happened is its increased the amount of red tape.

As I have pointed out there is duplication in front line roles as well.

As I said, not all the problems are of the railway's making. Like any other organisation the railway has some good managers and bad, but most of us sense that overall it could be better.

There are clearly problems still inside the industry as we have many employees on these forums who talk about 'management' as another species, there is still a lot of industrial unrest and you get overtones of the 70s. For everyone else they see their ticket prices rising and tax payer input (until recently) going up too, so something is still wrong.

Now, don't get me wrong, the railways are moving toward a more efficient structure, but where only just getting back to BR levels, let alone the self-standing Laissez-faire railway of the Edwardian and early 20th century level.

Network rail (among others) are starting to come out with some really innovative ideas, but the whole thing seems to be 20 years too late.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm only bemused my this point. The staff at the station WHSmith or Burger King should be selling the tickets at major stations, rather than having booking offices?

Look forward to first person saying couldn't buy ticket at station as person in front was buying latte

It seems to work well for Merseyrail (and Abellio on the Continent). I've often thought it would be useful to be able to pop into a shop on a station and buy a magazine and my ticket at the same time. Though maybe that's just me.

 

[The Ham]

It seems to work well for Merseyrail (and Abellio on the Continent). I've often thought it would be useful to be able to pop into a shop on a station and buy a magazine and my ticket at the same time. Though maybe that's just me.

It does depend on how busy the station/shops are clearly a major London termini it would be far to busy, however at stations which serve a small town or a collection of villages it could work very well.

It could also enable passengers to buy tickets from a person for a lot longer than the could do if it was just a ticket office. For instance for some of the small stations the train station could also be the village shop. This would mean that the village shop would be more viable (as it was selling train tickets and possibly even cups of coffee and news papers to commutators) as well as being open for train ticket sales for longer than at present (assuming it is manned at all).

 

[tbtc]

Most Newsagents in London sold paper Travelcards in the days before Oyster (they may still do so, but I'm not down so often nowadays). PayPoint allows shops to "sell" bus tickets (Arriva are big on this) and pay your gas bill at the same time.

Whilst that's no substitute for professional rail staff trained in the arcane knowledge required to decode the UK fare system, the reality is that most passengers are buying a fairly simple range of tickets, and tend to buy the same ones over and over again. So there is scope for a shop based scheme that would cated for the vast majority of passengers (though perhaps a minority of people on here, given some of the "interesting" routes that enthusiasts enjoy).

 

[HH]

The numbers speak for themselves.

Which numbers?

 

[ainsworth74]

It does depend on how busy the station/shops are clearly a major London termini it would be far to busy, however at stations which serve a small town or a collection of villages it could work very well.

Of course, I don't quite see something like this working at Waterloo or London Bridge (or any of the big London Terminals) but there are plenty of other smaller (and quieter) stations where it could be quite successful.

 

[Dave1987]

Unlike most other business the railway does not seem to want to multi-skill staff, or professionalise roles (see above). So you have perverse situations where there was a points failure, and previously station staff could wind points, now the railway was employing extra people to do this role. Conversely, when stations were short of dispatch staff, and trains were leaving late, the incident staff were sat with their legs up reading the paper! Meanwhile the driver is sat in the cab, where quite honestly there is no reason he cannot work under signallers instructions to wind and clamp points to get things moving.

Opportunities have been entirely missed. Why are separate ticket office staff still employed, when shops on stations can sell tickets, or outside industry can offer these services? There are many other roles that have a questionable existence, or could be done by other parties at lower costs.

Sorry but unless you have a clear understanding of the rule book I don't think you are qualified to make statements on what various staff should be able to do. The rule book is written to prioritise safety not efficiency!

 

[AlexS]

I would imagine he has a fairly clear understanding

It's a complete fact that station staff were used to shunt trains, couple and uncouple locomotives and units where required, and wind and clip points, as well as top up coolant on DMUs and water rolling stock. There's no reason other than organisational issues created by privatisation into different companies that this couldn't happen. Instead of the chargeman doing it, Network Rail now employs a MOM or similar individual. As a get out of jail free card, I see no reason why a driver, in direct communication with the signaller, could not wind a set of points and clip/scotch them if given the appropriate training - they sign the route anyway. They already operate hand points in yards and sidings to set their own routes.

 

[telstarbox]

Combining the village shop with the ticket office might be good for the railway, but not necessarily for the village shop. Someone who just pops in for a pint of milk/some cigarettes wouldn't want to be stuck behind someone after a railcard, season ticket renewal, seat reservations or an unusual ticket.

 

[Dave1987]

I would imagine he has a fairly clear understanding

It's a complete fact that station staff were used to shunt trains, couple and uncouple locomotives and units where required, and wind and clip points, as well as top up coolant on DMUs and water rolling stock. There's no reason other than organisational issues created by privatisation into different companies that this couldn't happen. Instead of the chargeman doing it, Network Rail now employs a MOM or similar individual. As a get out of jail free card, I see no reason why a driver, in direct communication with the signaller, could not wind a set of points and clip/scotch them if given the appropriate training - they sign the route anyway. They already operate hand points in yards and sidings to set their own routes.

Yes I pull hand points regularly. Sorry but I don't think you can compare modern safety standards with what "used" to happen. As a driver I would rather concentrate on the rules I already have to follow, station staff are there to provide customer service to passengers. NR have their staff who are highly qualified in their field. You start trying to merge operational jobs on the railway you will compromise safety.

 

[pinguini]

Fairs have gone up again and not unsurprisingly people don't like it.

And lets be honest from the outset if they were all cut by 10% last week the public, press and unions would still say they're too high so there will on the whole always be more moans and groans than cheers.

But let me ask how can train travel be reduced in cost say over the next ten-twenty years? What sort of things need to be done now to have long term benefits/savings?

Driverless trains, works excellently in Dubai

 

[Tomnick]

I can't particularly see a problem with some TOC staff being properly trained and qualified to carry out certain duties in an emergency. Drivers do have a lot to know and think about, but I'd suggest that being trained to, for example, wind points in certain (no doubt carefully defined) circumstances would actually improve their understanding of the 'big picture'. We're talking about well-trained and responsible people here, of course. It's not just a performance benefit - there's much more opportunity for folk to make a serious error when trying to work around a problem (wrong direction moves, unusual or unsignalled shunts etc) and more chance of passengers detraining themselves. Sometimes shifting one 'problem' train can make it a lot easier to deal with, and work around, the initial problem itself.