How could Northern cover for the temporarily withdrawn 195s and 331s?

[edwin_m]

Are there any surplus 323s at WMT that can transfer to Northern in the short term, as they are planned to do eventually anyway? I realise the bulk of the transfers are awaiting another CAF product that may be similarly affected, but wondered if they had any spare due to pandemic service reductions.

 

[Greybeard33]

Are there any surplus 323s at WMT that can transfer to Northern in the short term, as they are planned to do eventually anyway? I realise the bulk of the transfers are awaiting another CAF product that may be similarly affected, but wondered if they had any spare due to pandemic service reductions.

I doubt that Northern has enough drivers who sign 323s in the relevant depots to enable more to be used in the short term. The 331s on the west side are mostly booked on the services out of Blackpool, but 323s have never been used on these routes.

 

[Watershed]

Are there any surplus 323s at WMT that can transfer to Northern in the short term, as they are planned to do eventually anyway? I realise the bulk of the transfers are awaiting another CAF product that may be similarly affected, but wondered if they had any spare due to pandemic service reductions.

There's probably a decent number of units that could be freed up if (some) CrossCity services were short-formed to single sets. It's the kind of thing you might expect to see happen if they were one company, but for a (hopefully) temporary issue like this, a cross-TOC transfer seems unlikely.

 

[py_megapixel]

Are there any surplus 323s at WMT that can transfer to Northern in the short term, as they are planned to do eventually anyway? I realise the bulk of the transfers are awaiting another CAF product that may be similarly affected, but wondered if they had any spare due to pandemic service reductions.

I doubt that Northern has enough drivers who sign 323s in the relevant depots to enable more to be used in the short term. The 331s on the west side are mostly booked on the services out of Blackpool, but 323s have never been used on these routes.

323s have been used to Hazel Grove though. Maybe they could split the Blackpool-Hazel Grove service temporarily with the Manchester-Hazel Grove section operated by a 323 and the Manchester-Blackpool section a 331. But then you have the question of where you terminate the northern (with a small N!!!) section as I highly doubt there's capacity to turn it around in p13/14.

FWIW the 323 transfers aren't waiting on the CAF units for WMT; they're waiting on the Aventras (which are proving similarly poor, but if I understand correctly it's due to their software rather than their build quality)

There's probably a decent number of units that could be freed up if (some) CrossCity services were short-formed to single sets. It's the kind of thing you might expect to see happen if they were one company, but for a (hopefully) temporary issue like this, a cross-TOC transfer seems unlikely.

You could do that, but then you'd be incoveniencing another TOC. I also can't see Porterbrook really wanting to mess around with the arrangements of their fleet to cover for some Eversholt units.

In reality, the simplest solution is to just cut the 6-car services to 3 on Northern, and if that still doesn't leave enough units, start bringing 319s back out of storage - which, if what is in this thread is to be believed, is what they have already decided to do.

The question I have is how they can get electric units from the western to the eastern side at short notice, which would presumably be necessary unless the failures are concentrated on the western side, as the nearest electrified route goes via Glasgow! Presumably they'd have to get ROG to haul them through the Calder Valley or something.

 

[43096]

You could do that, but then you'd be incoveniencing another TOC. I also can't see Porterbrook really wanting to mess around with the arrangements of their fleet to cover for some Eversholt units.

Inconveniencing another TOC is irrelevant - under the current franchise contractual agreements the DfT can direct operators to release stock to other operators. Whilst the owning ROSCO would have to agree to it, it's unlikely they'd reject a request - it would be a sub-lease between the two TOCs.

 

[northernchris]

In reality, the simplest solution is to just cut the 6-car services to 3 on Northern, and if that still doesn't leave enough units, start bringing 319s back out of storage - which, if what is in this thread is to be believed, is what they have already decided to do.

The question I have is how they can get electric units from the western to the eastern side at short notice, which would presumably be necessary unless the failures are concentrated on the western side, as the nearest electrified route goes via Glasgow! Presumably they'd have to get ROG to haul them through the Calder Valley or something.

There's also a risk that more units will be withdrawn before a fix is identified

When the remaining 4 car 331s moved to Neville Hill last year it was indeed ROG who hauled them across the pennines

 

[py_megapixel]

Inconveniencing another TOC is irrelevant - under the current franchise contractual agreements the DfT can direct operators to release stock to other operators. Whilst the owning ROSCO would have to agree to it, it's unlikely they'd reject a request - it would be a sub-lease between the two TOCs.

Fair enough. There are of course still simpler solutions as mentioned previously though so I can't personally see a transfer happening on such a short-term basis. Maybe if this issue drags out over a long time they might have to though.

What would Northern use extra 323s for at this point anyway? They're not a drop-in replacement for 331s as they don't have SDO, so you'd still have to have short formations, and the WMT ones would have a PIS database which doesn't match Northern's though I don't think that is an enormous issue.

 

[birchesgreen]

WMR always apologise for putting on a single 3-car set on a cross-city line service, I can't see it going down well if they voluntarily transferred trains. The Meaning Evil would have a field day.

 

[py_megapixel]

WMR always apologise for putting on a single 3-car set on a cross-city line service, I can't see it going down well if they voluntarily transferred trains. The Meaning Evil would have a field day.

@43096 has mentioned already that it wouldn't be voluntary - it would be orchestrated by the DfT, and, if I understand correctly, I don't believe WMT would have much of a say in the matter.

 

[Philip]

No need for bringing 142s, 319s back or loco stock, there are a number of 185s surplus to requirements (many strengthened diagrams which could currently cope with a single unit), which could adequately cover the Blackpool and Cumbria to Manchester services, along with CLC and Hope Valley stoppers.

 

[Wolfie]

@43096 has mentioned already that it wouldn't be voluntary - it would be orchestrated by the DfT, and, if I understand correctly, I don't believe WMT would have much of a say in the matter.

I'm pretty sure that Birmingham MPs would be pushing back hard...

 

[43096]

No need for bringing 142s, 319s back or loco stock, there are a number of 185s surplus to requirements (many strengthened diagrams which could currently cope with a single unit), which could adequately cover the Blackpool and Cumbria to Manchester services, along with CLC and Hope Valley stoppers.

How are you crewing those trains, as Northern competence on 185s will have long since lapsed.

 

[Philip]

How are you crewing those trains, as Northern competence on 185s will have long since lapsed.

Northern were still crewing 185s on Cumbria services less than 2 years ago, up to May 2019 I think. A refresher might be needed but other than that it should be straightforward.

 

[43096]

Northern were still crewing 185s on Cumbria services less than 2 years ago, up to May 2019 I think.

Which doesn't answer the question. Crew competence generally expires after 6 months (though that varies by TOC). So, as I said, competence has lapsed - what's your solution?

 

[Jamesrob637]

No need for bringing 142s, 319s back or loco stock, there are a number of 185s surplus to requirements (many strengthened diagrams which could currently cope with a single unit), which could adequately cover the Blackpool and Cumbria to Manchester services, along with CLC and Hope Valley stoppers.

Hmm not a good idea to go back to 3-car on TPE especially from tomorrow - it's taken them long enough to get to as many booked 5-car and 6-car as it is!

 

[warwickshire]

Or abeillo Anglia to keep on using and bring back the stored 321s they have.
Extended prmi tsi 2020 extensions. After may.
And fetch over the 5 class 322 and 3219 back to northern east side.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hmm not a good idea to go back to 3-car on TPE especially from tomorrow - it's taken them long enough to get to as many booked 5-car and 6-car as it is!

TBH if it gets that bad they would be better wheeling out the buses on the one man, dog and bicycle* routes to free up 15x to use. Overcrowding is not what we want at the moment. Normally it's just unpleasant, but it could become dangerous for some at present.

* I am aware of the irony here

 

[LOL The Irony]

So here's how everything is right now:

The 331s are broken. There are insufficient 323s to cover for them should they all be withdrawn and not all west side electric depots sign them. The 319s are too slow to suitably cover 323 timetables, never mind 331 timetables. Bringing in 365s will require extra training, which could be diverted towards training all west side electric crews on 323s.

Inconveniencing another TOC is irrelevant - under the current franchise contractual agreements the DfT can direct operators to release stock to other operators. Whilst the owning ROSCO would have to agree to it, it's unlikely they'd reject a request - it would be a sub-lease between the two TOCs.

It's possible, but what do you then replace those missing units with? I suppose the 365s, but they'll need crews trained on them.

What would Northern use extra 323s for at this point anyway?

Have all south Manchester and Chat Moss services 323 operated and supplement 319s on other services.

 

[Greybeard33]

Have all south Manchester and Chat Moss services 323 operated and supplement 319s on other services.

If all the 331s have to be temporarily withdrawn, I think more 319s would be needed than the remaining fleet of 15, to work all the diagrams in the May timetable. What would be the feasibility of getting some of the off lease 319s back from storage?

 

[birchesgreen]

I'm pretty sure that Birmingham MPs would be pushing back hard...

Plus Andy Street wouldn't be that keen especially if it happened before the election

 

[yorksrob]

Aren't there any spare 319's/321's knocking about that could be un-withdrawn ?

 

[Wolfie]

Plus Andy Street wouldn't be that keen especially if it happened before the election

You aren't kidding, lol

 

[Neptune]

Aren't there any spare 319's/321's knocking about that could be un-withdrawn ?

321wise traction knowledge has lapsed.