How could services to and via Birmingham be sped up?

[BluePenguin]

Currently, trains to Birmingham New Street and beyond take significantly longer than other services to towns slightly north of it and beyond it. For example, Euston to Birmingham takes on average 1 hour 20 minutes. To compare apples to apples, there was one service a day in the pre-covid timetable that did Birmingham - Euston non stop in 1 hour 13 minutes. Meanwhile, Euston to Stafford non stop takes 1 hour 17 minutes despite being further north. Crewe non stop takes on average 1 hour 30 minutes.

In light of Birmingham being significantly south of both, services should take less time not more. Services to Scotland from Birmingham take on average 4 hours and 15 minutes. This is only 15 minutes quicker than from Euston. Even worse if you are doing the trip end to end this way as through journey takes 1 hour longer, which is terrible. These times being slower than the should be results in passengers choosing to fly instead of taking the train from The Midlands to Scotland.

The current fastest Birmingham service with only one stop at Coventry before the airport, does the trip in 1 hour 16 minutes, and that is using 125mph tracks most of the way.

Birmingham to Scotland should take a maximum of 3 hours. London to Birmingham no more than 50 minutes. London to Cambridge non stop is only 48 minutes and a similar distance north geographically. So long as services to Scotland are slower than they could be, the issue continues. The environmental benefits may sway people in future from flying to instead taking the train via reduced journey times.

The question is, how could this be achieved?

Ignoring the construction of HS2, inflation and the issue of cost, what could and would be done to upgrade existing lines and signalling to speed up services to and through Birmingham? Why is the railway in the midlands in the dire situation that it is? After the upgrades what would be the best possible journey time from London to Birmingham, and from Birmingham to Glasgow and Edinburgh?

 

[6Gman]

Currently, trains to Birmingham New Street and beyond take significantly longer than other services to towns slightly north of it and beyond it. For example, Euston to Birmingham takes on average 1 hour 20 minutes. To compare apples to apples, there was one service a day in the pre-covid timetable that did Birmingham - Euston non stop in 1 hour 13 minutes. Meanwhile, Euston to Stafford non stop takes 1 hour 17 minutes despite being further north. Crewe non stop takes on average 1 hour 30 minutes.

In light of Birmingham being significantly south of both, services should take less time not more. Services to Scotland from Birmingham take on average 4 hours and 15 minutes. This is only 15 minutes quicker than from Euston. Even worse if you are doing the trip end to end this way as through journey takes 1 hour longer, which is terrible. These times being slower than the should be results in passengers choosing to fly instead of taking the train from The Midlands to Scotland.

The current fastest Birmingham service with only one stop at Coventry before the airport, does the trip in 1 hour 16 minutes, and that is using 125mph tracks most of the way.

Birmingham to Scotland should take a maximum of 3 hours. London to Birmingham no more than 50 minutes. London to Cambridge non stop is only 48 minutes and a similar distance north geographically. So long as services to Scotland are slower than they could be, the issue continues. The environmental benefits may sway people in future from flying to instead taking the train via reduced journey times.

The question is, how could this be achieved?

Ignoring the construction of HS2, inflation and the issue of cost, what could and would be done to upgrade existing lines and signalling to speed up services to and through Birmingham? Why is the railway in the midlands in the dire situation that it is? After the upgrades what would be the best possible journey time from London to Birmingham, and from Birmingham to Glasgow and Edinburgh?

I've often said that the first part of HS2 to be built should have been Birmingham to Wolverhampton.

Seriously, until something can be done about the Coventry-Wolves corridor trains through Birmingham will be slow.

HS2 will help with part of it, but not the northern part.

 

[alex17595]

London to Birmingham is 112 miles, to do that in 50 mins you would have to average 134mph.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

London to Birmingham no more than 50 minutes. London to Cambridge non stop is only 48 minutes and a similar distance north geographically.

London to Cambridge around 60 miles, London to Birmingham is double that.

In terms of latitude Cambridge is on a similar latitude to Northampton.

Your argument really doesn’t stack up!!

 

[Peter0124]

The WCML around Birmingham/Wolverhampton isnt particularly fast either. I believe 60mph speed limit on the Wolves to New St section.

 

[GWVillager]

Currently, trains to Birmingham New Street and beyond take significantly longer than other services to towns slightly north of it and beyond it. For example, Euston to Birmingham takes on average 1 hour 20 minutes. To compare apples to apples, there was one service a day in the pre-covid timetable that did Birmingham - Euston non stop in 1 hour 13 minutes. Meanwhile, Euston to Stafford non stop takes 1 hour 17 minutes despite being further north. Crewe non stop takes on average 1 hour 30 minutes.

In light of Birmingham being significantly south of both, services should take less time not more. Services to Scotland from Birmingham take on average 4 hours and 15 minutes. This is only 15 minutes quicker than from Euston. Even worse if you are doing the trip end to end this way as through journey takes 1 hour longer, which is terrible. These times being slower than the should be results in passengers choosing to fly instead of taking the train from The Midlands to Scotland.

The current fastest Birmingham service with only one stop at Coventry before the airport, does the trip in 1 hour 16 minutes, and that is using 125mph tracks most of the way.

Birmingham to Scotland should take a maximum of 3 hours. London to Birmingham no more than 50 minutes. London to Cambridge non stop is only 48 minutes and a similar distance north geographically. So long as services to Scotland are slower than they could be, the issue continues. The environmental benefits may sway people in future from flying to instead taking the train via reduced journey times.

The question is, how could this be achieved?

Ignoring the construction of HS2, inflation and the issue of cost, what could and would be done to upgrade existing lines and signalling to speed up services to and through Birmingham? Why is the railway in the midlands in the dire situation that it is? After the upgrades what would be the best possible journey time from London to Birmingham, and from Birmingham to Glasgow and Edinburgh?

It is more or less entirely congestion, not helped by the low speed limits in certain areas as others have pointed out. Increasing the number of tracks into and out of New Street would likely help somewhat, however this would be rather expensive, disruptive and arguably impossible given the foundations built into the land that would be need to be tunnelled through. HS2 would probably be the best solution to the problem, and this was of course one of the reasons behind its construction.

Edit: I actually wouldn't say they're particularly slow anyway. London to Bristol, a similar distance on similarly important mainline is about 1 hour 40 minutes.

 

[duncanp]

One problems is that the main line from Coventry - Birmingham International - Birmingham New Street - Wolverhampton is only double track, and has a mixture of stopping and semi fast services.

To say nothing of the bottleneck that is New Street station.

Also the Southern end of the West Coast Main Line is similarly congested with a mixture of fast services to Manchester and Scotland competing with local and semi fast services.

This is why HS2 is needed, whatever some of the detractors and NIMBYs might say, so that faster long distance services can be separated from local and regional services.

 

[DM352]

There was historic provision for 4 tracks out of New St for some way towards International but cannot see it done because of HS2. Am sure it was 100 Rugby towards NS years ago but not sure if was increased to 125 for tilt. There may also be more padding in the timetable for delay repay

 

[SynthD]

Birmingham is on the loop, not the main. To fix that you would need a mainline that reaches Birmingham and goes both to London and towards Scotland. Perhaps this new line could go as far as Crewe, or bypass Golbourne to Preston.

 

[The Planner]

The WCML around Birmingham/Wolverhampton isnt particularly fast either. I believe 60mph speed limit on the Wolves to New St section.

Thats for the reverse curves at Albion. Its quicker either side, 75mph.

One problems is that the main line from Coventry - Birmingham International - Birmingham New Street - Wolverhampton is only double track, and has a mixture of stopping and semi fast services.

To say nothing of the bottleneck that is New Street station.

Also the Southern end of the West Coast Main Line is similarly congested with a mixture of fast services to Manchester and Scotland competing with local and semi fast services.

This is why HS2 is needed, whatever some of the detractors and NIMBYs might say, so that faster long distance services can be separated from local and regional services.

Avanti trains are timetabled generally to not catch anything up. So the congestion affects other operators.

There was historic provision for 4 tracks out of New St for some way towards International but cannot see it done because of HS2. Am sure it was 100 Rugby towards NS years ago but not sure if was increased to 125 for tilt. There may also be more padding in the timetable for delay repay

Its 125 to Cov, 100/110 onwards. Its not padded in any way along there.

 

[BluePenguin]

@The Planner Now we are in the speculative section, would you mind explaining in an ideal world what you would do improvements wise to speed up services to Birmingham?

 

[adamedwards]

Everything discussed so far is of course why we need HS2 and the full line ideally to Preston (Golborne is too far south) and the ECML near York. Birmingham to Scotland and Leeds/York/Newcastle will be mcuh faster and the space released on the existing line released for regional services where high speed is less important. Indeed one might imagine some sections of track might event revert back from 125mph to something lower if the demand is no longer there.

 

[The Planner]

@The Planner Now we are in the speculative section, would you mind explaining in an ideal world what you would do improvements wise to speed up services to Birmingham?

We are doing it, HS2.

 

[30907]

Some 20 years ago, a friend involved in matters WCML wondered aloud about running Euston-Birmingham-Preston-Glasgow only, rebuilding Stafford for 125mph from/to Brum.
The time penalty for going that way is about 20min, so London-Glasgow times would have been similar to the standard times today IIRC, but you wouldn't get Birmingham-Glasgow down to 3 hours on the existing route.

 

[BluePenguin]

We are doing it, HS2.

Well I meant to upgrading the existing infrastructure. Saw your post on the other thread which does make a lot of sense thinking about it.

 

[The Planner]

Well I meant to upgrading the existing infrastructure. Saw your post on the other thread which does make a lot of sense thinking about it.

You would only make minor dents into the time if you did anything on the existing infrastructure as explained on the other thread, nowhere near the 25 minutes you are expecting. The upgrades required effectively make it a new railway.

 

[class26]

Probably also worth mentioning that the Brum to SCotland services stop more frequently generally than the Euston - Scotland direct.

 

[Peter0124]

Probably also worth mentioning that the Brum to SCotland services stop more frequently generally than the Euston - Scotland direct.

Imo they should make them fast from Coventry again like originally planned

 

[Magdalia]

London to Birmingham no more than 50 minutes.

The relevant comparisons for Birmingham-London are Bristol-London and Norwich-London. Norwich is still fighting to get a 90 minute journey.

 

[dk1]

The relevant comparisons for Birmingham-London are Bristol-London and Norwich-London. Norwich is still fighting to get a 90 minute journey.

Norwich has already had a 90 minute journey & the schedules are still there. Still waiting for the DfT to allow the two return services each way to return.

 

[Magdalia]

Norwich has already had a 90 minute journey & the schedules are still there. Still waiting for the DfT to allow the two return services each way to return.

Thanks. I was confident that you would be able to step in and give the current situation more reliably than I could!

 

[dk1]

Thanks. I was confident that you would be able to step in and give the current situation more reliably than I could!

Most welcome. Should be 08:00up/17:00dn The East Anglian & 09:00up/19:00dn The Norfolkman. The East Anglian did run briefly with Stadler units late in the pandemic but was withdrawn around the time Omicrom started & has not returned.

 

[Bald Rick]

@The Planner Now we are in the speculative section, would you mind explaining in an ideal world what you would do improvements wise to speed up services to Birmingham?

Building HS2.

For clarity, there is very little ‘padding’ (pathing time) between Coventry and Birmingham on the Avanti services, rarely more than one minute and normally none. The timings of the trains are as per the infrastructure provided. There is little point raising the speed between Coventry and Birmingham, as the trains would have little time above 100/110 between the stops.

The only way to reduce journey times on the existing infrastructure would be to take stops out. But that would mean removing stopping services from the timetable to enable it. As that would not be acceptable to passengers or stakeholders it therefore needs the construction of another pair of tracks from somewhere near Berkswell to somewhere near Proof House Junction.

Which brings us back to HS2, as that is exactly what is happening.

 

[The Planner]

Imo they should make them fast from Coventry again like originally planned

That destroys connectivity, how would you replace it?

 

[philosopher]

Building HS2.

For clarity, there is very little ‘padding’ (pathing time) between Coventry and Birmingham on the Avanti services, rarely more than one minute and normally none. The timings of the trains are as per the infrastructure provided. There is little point raising the speed between Coventry and Birmingham, as the trains would have little time above 100/110 between the stops.

Generally I find the timings on the northbound Avanti services to Birmingham New Street overoptimistic, trains are almost always delayed by typically three minutes arriving into Birmingham New Street and this delay usually is picked up between Coventry and Birmingham New Street. Long dwell times at Coventry and International seem to be the main reason for this. Therefore three minutes of timetable padding on this route I think would be beneficial, even if it where to increase the headline journey time from London to Birmingham from 1 hour 16 minutes to 1 hour 19 minutes.

 

[The Planner]

Generally I find the timings on the northbound Avanti services to Birmingham New Street overoptimistic, trains are almost always delayed by typically three minutes arriving into Birmingham New Street and this delay usually is picked up between Coventry and Birmingham New Street. Long dwell times at Coventry and International seem to be the main reason for this. Therefore three minutes of timetable padding on this route I think would be beneficial, even if it where to increase the headline journey time from London to Birmingham from 1 hour 16 minutes to 1 hour 19 minutes.

They have 2 minute dwells in the vast majority of services, you can only go lower on set down and pick up only stops. Add three minutes in and it breaks the timetable.

 

[RobShipway]

Generally I find the timings on the northbound Avanti services to Birmingham New Street overoptimistic, trains are almost always delayed by typically three minutes arriving into Birmingham New Street and this delay usually is picked up between Coventry and Birmingham New Street. Long dwell times at Coventry and International seem to be the main reason for this. Therefore three minutes of timetable padding on this route I think would be beneficial, even if it where to increase the headline journey time from London to Birmingham from 1 hour 16 minutes to 1 hour 19 minutes.

They have 2 minute dwells in the vast majority of services, you can only go lower on set down and pick up only stops. Add three minutes in and it breaks the timetable.

Not sure if it is changed much, but in the past there was always a delay going through the tunnels into Birmingham New Street as you head into it from the east. I believe that it is Holiday Street Tunnel and Canal Tunnel?

 

[The Planner]

Not sure if it is changed much, but in the past there was always a delay going through the tunnels into Birmingham New Street as you head into it from the east. I believe that it is Holiday Street Tunnel and Canal Tunnel?

No, those are the tunnels out towards Five Ways. Delays into New St are platform based, not speed. The tunnel on that side is plain New St South tunnel.

 

[zwk500]

Generally I find the timings on the northbound Avanti services to Birmingham New Street overoptimistic, trains are almost always delayed by typically three minutes arriving into Birmingham New Street and this delay usually is picked up between Coventry and Birmingham New Street. Long dwell times at Coventry and International seem to be the main reason for this. Therefore three minutes of timetable padding on this route I think would be beneficial, even if it where to increase the headline journey time from London to Birmingham from 1 hour 16 minutes to 1 hour 19 minutes.

Which services are you removing completely from the timetable to make room for these 3 minutes?

 

[william.martin]

Not sure if it is changed much, but in the past there was always a delay going through the tunnels into Birmingham New Street as you head into it from the east. I believe that it is Holiday Street Tunnel and Canal Tunnel?

With two of the platforms shut you can wait for up to 5 minutes arriving from both the west and the east, most services have a sufficient dwell time to cover for this however services that struggle in particular are the Birmingham to Shrewsbury WMR service which have a 6 minute turn around and therefore the staff in the ROC tries to give them a clear run into the station.