How could the route of the previously proposed Metropolitan Line Extension be used?

[Recessio]

Will the fact that Watford has been confirmed as the site for a new District hospital have any bearing on the decision?

They conveniently ignored the hospital, just like with Camberwell Station reopening consultation.

Will be interesting to see what comes out of this. If MLX is dead, would like to see a light-rail project from say Croxley through Watford Junction and take over the Abbey line.

 

[philthetube]

They conveniently ignored the hospital, just like with Camberwell Station reopening consultation.

Will be interesting to see what comes out of this. If MLX is dead, would like to see a light-rail project from say Croxley through Watford Junction and take over the Abbey line.

I agree that is probably a good answer, the problem though, is crossing the west coast main line at Watford Junction.

 

[LUYMun]

I recall one proposal investigated by Hertfordshire County Council was to reopen the line to Cassiobridge (not far from Croxley Green) for use as a London Overground/National Rail shuttle. I think this would be more viable for the long term as it guarantees the chance to double track and connect the branch with the Metropolitan line.

They conveniently ignored the hospital, just like with Camberwell Station reopening consultation.

Will be interesting to see what comes out of this. If MLX is dead, would like to see a light-rail project from say Croxley through Watford Junction and take over the Abbey line.

A tramway was also proposed with such route, so it does prevent crossing the WCML at Watford Junction or sharing the National Rail line at Watford High Street, which in themselves are also a disadvantage due to the lack of cross-modal connectivity.

 

[SynthD]

A well lit and wide shared path. Cycles are the largest vehicle the council can afford to serve.

 

[BrianW]

Croxley's at the centre of a great web of cycle routes- Leicester- London via Grand Union canal, Ebury Way etc- reasonably flat. Forget new rail or Met- what would really be achieved by spending? Who wants to travel across Watford- why? If you want London you go to Junction or High Street or Met Stn to start, and they're good services as they are. Q. Why were the lines closed that were? A. They weren't needed.

Maybe a kind of urban/ rural foot/cycle path may work? I'd let Watford folk decide, esp as they will be paying, if at all!!

 

[MarkyT]

I agree that is probably a good answer, the problem though, is crossing the west coast main line at Watford Junction.

A tramway was also proposed with such route, so it does prevent crossing the WCML at Watford Junction or sharing the National Rail line at Watford High Street, which in themselves are also a disadvantage due to the lack of cross-modal connectivity.

This might be possible:

If high floor tram-train specced vehicles were used, then Watford High Street platforms might be used, along with existing platforms along the St Albans line.

 

[Bald Rick]

Croxley's at the centre of a great web of cycle routes- Leicester- London via Grand Union canal, Ebury Way etc- reasonably flat. Forget new rail or Met- what would really be achieved by spending? Who wants to travel across Watford- why? If you want London you go to Junction or High Street or Met Stn to start, and they're good services as they are. Q. Why were the lines closed that were? A. They weren't needed.

Maybe a kind of urban/ rural foot/cycle path may work? I'd let Watford folk decide, esp as they will be paying, if at all!!

to be fair, there is fairly high flow of people from the ‘Junction’ side of Watford, and beyond, aiming for the hospital. And also the football next door, although that is only 25 times a year or so. there is no doubt that a high capacity, high quality transport link on that corridor would be busy. The Met extension probably is the best of the possible solutions.

This might be possible:
View attachment 120877
If high floor tram-train specced vehicles were used, then Watford High Street platforms might be used, along with existing platforms along the St Albans line.

That blue line west of the viaduct is bang on the River Colne…

 

[stuu]

Croxley's at the centre of a great web of cycle routes- Leicester- London via Grand Union canal, Ebury Way etc- reasonably flat. Forget new rail or Met- what would really be achieved by spending? Who wants to travel across Watford- why? If you want London you go to Junction or High Street or Met Stn to start, and they're good services as they are. Q. Why were the lines closed that were? A. They weren't needed.

Watford is the major local centre both for retail and employment for North west London, road traffic through Bushey is terrible as a result. Extending the Met would have given rail access from a much larger number of people

 

[cle]

This came so close, and I agree that the light rail plans (we never see these mini local light rail schemes people suggest in smaller places!) - and tying into the Abbey Line - are just unrealistic.

Met line extension was a solid network plan, eaten by politics. Could have enabled full handover of the line from Ricky to Chiltern in time.

Maybe one day it’ll return with a slimmer plan and amicable TFL/Herts alignment - maybe one station between Croxley and High St - double ended to try increase catchment.

 

[MarkyT]

That blue line west of the viaduct is bang on the River Colne…

A minor diversion of the watercourse might be needed to accomodate rail, footpath and river in the vicinity, maybe with a short section culvertised beneath the new alignment. 10m difference between WCML track and Stephenson Way road levels so probably some vertical flexibility for new track level under viaduct for high water flood avoidance. Anyone know whether Stephensen Way has ever closed due to flooding?

 

[Bald Rick]

A minor diversion of the watercourse might be needed to accomodate rail, footpath and river in the vicinity, maybe with a short section culvertised beneath the new alignment. 10m difference between WCML track and Stephenson Way road levels so probably some vertical flexibility for new track level under viaduct for high water flood avoidance. Anyone know whether Stephensen Way has ever closed due to flooding?

I‘ve never known it closed for flooding

 

[BrianW]

Finding myself thinking back to Uxbridge (Vine Street)- West Drayton & Yiewsley 'back in the day'. Clearly for those responsible back then the rail business didn't cut it. There had been lots of 'plans' to connect at Uxbridge with either the Met (or Piccadilly) Line (or both) and/or the former GWR line down from Denham to High Street (or both) none of which bore fruit. Why? Such 'no-brainers'- ha ha! Who, honestly, would have used them? Why? I worked for Hillingdon Council in the 1980s; we built several hundred much-needed homes for folk on the former railway land- all near shops, schools, etc. That's over 40 years now in which folk have enjoyed living there, brought up families etc etc.

Watford is similar- good centre, jobs, good rail services, M25 and M1 access ... why not build on the surplus land?

 

[Mikey C]

Watford is the major local centre both for retail and employment for North west London, road traffic through Bushey is terrible as a result. Extending the Met would have given rail access from a much larger number of people

Realistically, how many people though would switch out of their cars because the Met Line is diverted to service Watford High Street? I suspect that most of those currently driving into Watford (maybe from leafy areas well away from stations) would continue to drive anyway.

The traffic through Bushey is presumably from the south, which already has the Overground service.

 

[Bald Rick]

Realistically, how many people though would switch out of their cars because the Met Line is diverted to service Watford High Street? I suspect that most of those currently driving into Watford (maybe from leafy areas well away from stations) would continue to drive anyway.

The traffic through Bushey is presumably from the south, which already has the Overground service.

I would, when I need to go to the hospital.

 

[mr_jrt]

Not wanting to go too far off topic, but the traffic through Bushey is nothing to do with the Met extension and a lot more to do with the fact there's no railway between Edgware and Watford, forcing people onto long, slow bus journeys if they want to make that journey by public transport.

...I'll get my coat.

 

[RobShipway]

Could you not have a tram/train service that goes on to St Albans from Watford and possibly onwards to Bedford?

 

[Bald Rick]

Could you not have a tram/train service that goes on to St Albans from Watford and possibly onwards to Bedford?

in a word, no.

 

[A0wen]

Could you not have a tram/train service that goes on to St Albans from Watford and possibly onwards to Bedford?

No. Mainly because the MML is at capacity already with existing Thameslink, EMR and freight demands. And there *realky* isn't the demand for travel between Watford and Bedford.

And the Abbey line and MML are not linked and cannot be easily linked - discussed on many previous occasions when suggestions of diverting Abbey Flyer services into St Albans City have come up.

 

[mr_jrt]

Could you not have a tram/train service that goes on to St Albans from Watford and possibly onwards to Bedford?

There's a very easy way to get between Watford and Bedford by rail already (hint: change at Bletchley)

 

[miklcct]

There's a very easy way to get between Watford and Bedford by rail already (hint: change at Bletchley)

The line only operates once per hour which is very unattractive as a suburban rail. Such railway needs to operate at at least every half an hour frequency to attract passengers.

 

[philthetube]

how many people do you think want to travel between Watford and Bletchley every half hour?

I lived in Watford for 25 years and never considered visiting Bedford once.

 

[mr_jrt]

Regardless of current demand (or lack thereof), the service will get more frequent once EWR's enhancements are in place.

 

[Bald Rick]

The line only operates once per hour which is very unattractive as a suburban rail. Such railway needs to operate at at least every half an hour frequency to attract passengers.

Watford to Bedford is not suburban!

 

[miklcct]

Watford to Bedford is not suburban!

Its similar to both Watford - Milton Keynes and St Albans - Bedford. How come it isn't suburban rail?

 

[Bald Rick]

Its similar to both Watford - Milton Keynes and St Albans - Bedford. How come it isn't suburban rail?

between leaving Watford, and arriving Bedford, you will see almost exclusively fields and open countryside. A little built up along the line for a few hundred metres around Hemel, Berko, Leighton Buzzard and Bletchley, but ‘urban’ it is not.

in any event, Watford - MK and St Albans - Bedford isn’t suburban rail either. It’s very much ‘outer suburban’

Bletchley to Bedford is, frankly, rural (Currently).


I really don’t get this desire to link up places that have no affinity. I‘ve lived on the MML for 20 years, with a direct service every 15 minutes to Bedford, and have been there once. I won’t be unusual In that.

 

[BrianW]

I really don’t get this desire to link up places that have no affinity. I‘ve lived on the MML for 20 years, with a direct service every 15 minutes to Bedford, and have been there once. I won’t be unusual In that.

Indeed. I can see a case for (perhaps) a rail link where there is already a well-used and frequent bus service between them, thus suggesting a potential 'demand' but even there I would have thought a more frequent bus would be loads cheaper than the millions of pounds to provide new railway!

'Development' tended to be along roads ('ribbon development') before 'planning' and now without the boldness of New Towns tends now to be around existing small towns, eg St Neots.

By all means new rail links IF folk will accept more housing to support it- best of luck to Ms Truss against her voter Nimbys!
She might manage to 'sell' NPR in giving 'opportunity' for every Red-waller 'up north' to get to a job in Leeds or Manchester within the 'typical' London commuter hour?

 

[miklcct]

I really don’t get this desire to link up places that have no affinity. I‘ve lived on the MML for 20 years, with a direct service every 15 minutes to Bedford, and have been there once. I won’t be unusual In that.

I've lived on the MML for just months with a direct service every 15 minutes to St Albans, and have been there multiple times, I think at least 3, already, not counting the other occasions when I used a bus to access those places as well.



By using my bike I can get to most places in Hertfordshire even if it is some distance away from the station. These towns are all in Hertfordshire and the geographical proximity means people will frequently travel between these towns.

 

[DerekC]

Getting back in the direction of the OP, in a more rational world the Met Line might be part of London Overground (after all, only about 5 miles, from Aldgate to Finchley Road, are in tunnel compared with 41 miles total). I am not suggesting it should be, just try thinking about it that way as an experiment. The link to Watford Junction seems to make more sense. Extension to Aylesbury to complete coverage of the suburban/outer urban traffic? Electrify to High Wycombe? Of course there are a few minor problems in the way of operational integration, like different systems of electrification and CBTC/train stops versus AWS/TPWS! Still, the thought interested me for five minutes!!

 

[BrianW]

'Googling' on < Croxley Link Cost> took me to this as 'top answer':

Initially thought to cost around £65 million in 2005, surveys and investigations have repeatedly pushed the cost upwards to the point that it's now actually expected to cost at least £360 million to build.10 Nov 2020

This link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croxley_Rail_Link identified:

On 25 January 2017, the Watford Observer newspaper confirmed that work which had been ongoing since 2014[35] had stopped as there was an ongoing funding issue; Transport for London were stating that more than £50 million additional funding was required. A Freedom of Information request revealed that £130 million of the £284 million funding had already been spent, but the only works that had actually been delivered were some utility diversions and route clearance.

 

[mr_jrt]

Criminal waste of money. You really have to wonder where it really all went.