How could you build extra platforms at York?

[HST43257]

My solution to all of this:


2 new platforms next to Platform 1 for potential extra services to Selby, Garforth and Sherburn areas

2 new platforms next to Platform 2 (Short Stay due to be closed soon) for services to Haxby, Strensall and points on the York to Beverley via Pocklington route

Through road(s) and between Platforms 3 and 5 to increase the capacity on these platforms

Knock through 6 and 7 to 8, creating 2 new long platforms. An Edinburgh style scissors crossover can be put here, though it would be primarily for intercity/express trains.

9 is repurposed as the Leeds Line through line (southbound)

Through Road with crossovers to 10, situated between 9 and 10

10 and 11 used for Leeds and Wetherby terminating Southbound workings. In theory

Through Road with crossovers to 11, situated between 11 and x

New island platforms x and y. x is a Leeds Line through line (northbound) and y is a Harrogate Line loop platform, as part of a circular route using the avoiders (plus a curve bordering the ROC) in 1 direction and the main line in the other one.


I’ve been trying to work out recently if 6 tracks to the south and 4 tracks to the north are at all possible. With modifications to the Leeman Road low bridge and the Siemens Depot, I think the 4 tracks to the north would be possible. For the 6 tracks on the lines south of York, 2 might need to be in a tunnel from York Model Engineers area to Askham Bar. I believe these changes would be needed with the addition of High Speed 2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail to all of this.

I don’t see a U-Bahn style operation being possible, especially for outer suburban stuff.

 

[Bald Rick]

Or have a York U-Bahn with underground platforms...

I'll leave it to others to suggest which lines would run into this new tunnel!

The Ouse line would be using it most of the time.

 

[Ianno87]

The Ouse line would be using it most of the time.

The Ouse-Bahn......?

 

[Bald Rick]

The Ouse-Bahn......?

Very good!

 

[class26]

...and the 5 year (minimum) delay for the archaeological investigations which seem to precede **all** building works in York!

........and York is on a flood plain isn`t it ?

 

[Ploughman]

When York was remodelled back in the 80's.
Evidence of Roman burials and other remains was discovered just below sleeper bottom level, from Holgate bridge, throughout the station site.
Now take a look at the Archaeological work being done at Birmingham and London on the HS2 sites. Could that work be incorporated within any further remodelling at York?
It is rumoured that one of the reasons why Holgate bridge was lifted rather than track lowered for electrification, was due to the risk of digging up remains.

 

[ABB125]

The Ouse line would be using it most of the time.

The Ouse-Bahn......?

Elevated monorail it is then! Something like the Wuppertal system would be good - I can just imagine it swinging past the cathedral and along the narrow, Viking streets...

Back in the real world, my suggestion would be a third track as far as the Harrogate line, a new through island on the west side, and if needed some more south facing bays on the east side. Which sounds rather like what Network Rail has planned...

 

[yoyothehobo]

With regards to the Archaeological nature of York station, the northern end is constructed on an old Roman Cemetery. In fact, one of my colleagues on an investigation there over the summer found a few Roman burials within areas close to the station.

I myself on work close to the station have found a Roman Vase (mostly intact) in the ground. The UK has very strict heritage rules.

 

[paul1609]

You'd be looking more at Colton Jn to Tollerton as you'd surely have to go west of Rufforth. And Colton Jn would have to be a flying junction to avoid conflicting movements, and ideally so would Tollerton (to make it properly useful for freight I'd argue you'd need a flying junction at both and with connections to all lines at Colton Jn).

The cost would be astronomical, so you can rule it out instantly.

Im not that familiar with the area but looking at the OS map there would appear to be plenty of space east of Rufford for a 4 to 5 mile long 125 mph avoiding line.
I agree that South of York you'd need a flyover to provide access to the avoiding line but reckon you could have a flat junction north of York.
If nothing is done I'd argue that the ECML will become very much a secondary route to Scotland port HS2. It makes no sense to have high speed trains pootling through the middle of a tourist city at 20 mph.

 

[Meerkat]

If nothing is done I'd argue that the ECML will become very much a secondary route to Scotland port HS2. It makes no sense to have high speed trains pootling through the middle of a tourist city at 20 mph

Isn’t that very much the plan?

 

[Bald Rick]

If nothing is done I'd argue that the ECML will become very much a secondary route to Scotland port HS2. It makes no sense to have high speed trains pootling through the middle of a tourist city at 20 mph.

They won’t be, for two reasons:

1) they’ll all be stopping
2) the line speed is 30mph

Isn’t that very much the plan?

Yes!

 

[IanXC]

Are there enough services for that? The only trains terminating from a southern direction apart from those from or via Leeds (e.g. Blackpool ones) are the Hull/Selby services, and there aren't a lot of them, and the London ones.

Platforms 6 and 7 are long enough for a 9-car IEP, which 1 isn't, and I don't think that beside it would be either - unless they made major changes invlving taking out a good chunk of the car park.

NRs most recent document talks about in a post HS2 world, the XC from Reading terminating at York to free up capacity for classic compatible services to take its place on the northern ECML. That is listed as the driver for Platform 0, Platform A being added due to the lower marginal cost of an additional platform while already on site.

 

[YorksLad12]

It makes no sense to have high speed trains pootling through the middle of a tourist city at 20 mph.

Bit harsh that. It's also home to Northern, LNER, Grand Central and Network Rail, a University and several government offices.

NRs most recent document talks about in a post HS2 world, the XC from Reading terminating at York to free up capacity for classic compatible services to take its place on the northern ECML. That is listed as the driver for Platform 0, Platform A being added due to the lower marginal cost of an additional platform while already on site.

Pity they hadn't thought of that while building P0 at Leeds...

 

[DB]

Bit harsh that. It's also home to Northern, LNER, Grand Central and Network Rail, a University and several government offices.


Pity they hadn't thought of that while building P0 at Leeds...

Two universities...

 

[YorksLad12]

Two universities...

D'oh. York St John's...

 

[IanXC]

Pity they hadn't thought of that while building P0 at Leeds...

From the amount of work required and the layout, I would suspect that the marginal cost of building an extra new platform at Leeds would be very significant.

 

[greyman42]

What about another raft of tracks and platforms above the existing ones inside the main shed?

Joking apart, they could not even get planning permission for ticket barriers at York!

 

[mwmbwls]

Is that the plan that also suggested building new west-facing bays near platform 1 (I think they were called X and Y in the diagram)?

https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Church-Fenton-to-Newcastle-Strategic-Advice-2020.pdf

Pages 19 and 20 show ambitious but achievable proposals for you with new through platforms on the Railway Museum side of the station.

 

[YorksLad12]

https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Church-Fenton-to-Newcastle-Strategic-Advice-2020.pdf

Pages 19 and 20.

That was the one - thanks.

 

[Halifaxlad]

What about a short new 125 mph line from Copmanthorpe alongside the route of the York Northern Bypass to regain the ECML at Poppleton?
The York Deviation could allow considerable time savings on the London to Newcastle service eliminating the current time wasting stop at a minor regional junction.
York would continue to served by the stopping regional express services to Kings Cross.

If there is a benefit in bypassing York, then might as well go the whole hog and extend HS2 along the approximate line of the M1 to cut off the corner and join the ECML somewhere in the Thirsk-Northallerton area. That would save about 20min.

If bypassing York I would certainly go for a new line! Although I would send it West of Tadcaster and through Thorpe Arch on the old alignment before joining the M1 alignment just after Wetherby.

As for a new line adjacent to the York bypass they may be some merit if it had chords at Poppleton in both directions and if it was curved around Woodthorpe so that Harrogate services could approach York from the South and head straight through to Scarborough or just back to Harrogate. If this was done then I would put a new station in the middle of it and call it something like West York or York West.

 

[Bald Rick]

If this was done then I would put a new station in the middle of it and call it something like West York or York West.

Surely ‘New’ York?

 

[ABB125]

Surely ‘New’ York?

Or "not-quite York"

 

[EllieAquitrain]

Newer York?

 

[Ploughman]

Bearing in mind the local history, YORVIK for the old station.

 

[edwin_m]

Bearing in mind the local history, YORVIK for the old station.

Would that make the even older one inside the city walls Eboracum?

 

[SussexLad]

Newer York?

Or near-york

 

[Halifaxlad]

They're some certainly good suggestions for station names.

After thinking some more about York I have a more hair brained idea similar to paul1609 suggestion of a new line alongside the Northern bypass from Copmanthorpe to Poppleton.

Why not take this principle of a new line adjacent to the bypass, but have it along the Northern section between Poppleton, crossing over the ECML before joining the Scarborough line after Clifton Moor. You could even build a new station at Clifton Moor, that way you could completely remove conflict between ECML & Harrogate services.

Although the existing service is 1 and hour, 2 per hour is planned subject to some small upgrades. With the large proposed housing development at Kirk Hammerton demand is likely to rise further (Regarding COVID the population is still expected to grow)

Also if York is ever again reconnected to Wetherby by rail, then it may be easier to do what paul suggested and build a new line adjacent to the bypass as the route of what would have been the Leeds & York Railway (if it had been completed by the Midland) has now been built upon at Copmanthorpe.

This way any possible new line to Wetherby is future proofed that could call at either ‘New’ York, 'not-quite York', 'Newer York', 'near-york' on route to York via Clifton Moor.



A downside this would add about 2.6 miles on.

Once this was done, if the disused Leeds facing turnback platforms adjacent to the car park were brought back into use then all your terminators could be upon the East side of the station by the main entrance.

Then going by the earlier suggestion of pushing the footbridge steps to outside the original station wall adjacent to platform 9 and then joining the bay platforms to make 2 new through platforms. You might have done away with the need for this new island platform.

 

[DJ_K666]

D'oh. York St John's...

Pah! Is that a University or a Polytechnic masquerading as one?

According to what I have been reading funding os being finalised to re-double the Harrogate line. Will this mean two tracks in the double bay at York? There is only one at the moment, Platform 8.

 

[YorksLad12]

Pah! Is that a University or a Polytechnic masquerading as one?

According to what I have been reading funding os being finalised to re-double the Harrogate line. Will this mean two tracks in the double bay at York? There is only one at the moment, Platform 8.

I think it's only doubling along the rest of the route, not at the York end which would require signalling and suchlike.

In my day, the College of Ripon & York St John awarded degrees of the University of Leeds, as did Trinity & All Saints' College (where I was). They're both colleges taking advantage of the lowering of the number of students required in order to apply for universityship. A bit off topic, unless you count the Harrogate Line connects both

 

[DJ_K666]

I think it's only doubling along the rest of the route, not at the York end which would require signalling and suchlike.

In my day, the College of Ripon & York St John awarded degrees of the University of Leeds, as did Trinity & All Saints' College (where I was). They're both colleges taking advantage of the lowering of the number of students required in order to apply for universityship. A bit off topic, unless you count the Harrogate Line connects both

So does that mean just the Cattal to Knaresborough section then? IIRC the single line sections are Knaresborough to Cattal and Hammerton to Poppleton with the approach to York being double track, with these sections used to train signallers in mechanical signalling (I read somewhere)

So pretty old institutions then!